rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think so, especially in this thread where appeals to spiritual confirmation and revelation have been made, Yes, appeals to spiritual confirmation and revelation have been made by both thread participants and the prophet. Quote which leaves the conclusion fairly indisputable (hence no more to discuss by way of rational justification and defense). Not really... the policy has been discussed from the perspective of spiritual confirmation/revelation as well as rational justification and doctrinal basis. Comments regarding revelation, whether prophetic or personal, haven't stymied other aspects of the discussion. Quote But I'm having trouble getting those who prayed about the policy and confirmed that it was not of God to share how they formulated their petition in comparison with what i offered here: Posted 6 hours ago (edited) I've discussed it in as much detail as I care to. My relationship with God, nor how I communicate with him, is not a matter to be judged by you. Edited October 1, 2019 by rockpond 1
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: As he notes above, he seems to want to know "how one formulates the petition or proposal for confirmation in line with more detailed teachings". Which to me sounds like he wants to judge if you asked in a way that is consistent with his understanding of gospel principles on the matter. I'm looking to compare alternative approaches with what I've summarized.
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: Yes, appeals to spiritual confirmation and revelation have been made by both thread participants and the prophet. Not really... the policy has been discussed from the perspective of spiritual confirmation/revelation as well as rational justification and doctrinal basis. Comments regarding revelation, whether prophetic or personal, haven't stymied other aspects of the discussion. I've discussed it in as much detail as I care to. My relationship with God, nor how I communicate with him, is not a matter to be judged by you. When I hear someone (whether a thread participant or the prophet) bear his testimony, I take that as the overriding basis for his position, and where all the rational justifications and doctrinal bases have been covered, and arguments pro and con have been laid out, it is time (rather an opportunity) to examine the overriding spiritual processes. President Nelson described some of these in the talk in question on this thread. I shared some others. I would like to hear yet others. These may support one's relationship and communication with God, but they do not define them, so I would judge you no more, and I believe probably far less, than you may have judged me on the details I shared. ETA: I cannot judge you anyway, as you / we are anonymous (more accurately, pseudonymous). I am looking at processes here, not individuals. Edited October 1, 2019 by CV75 1
Jake Starkey Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 Yup, some confused ones want to judge the alphas on how the alphas ask for confirmation, when it is they who are confused. The proclamation was wrong from start to how badly it was handled at the end. People will believe 'the one true church' thing, but they are aware now that the 15 are certainly (very) fallible. This PR blunder is going to make the people of the church enforce accountability by the 15, far more than times past.
kllindley Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, rockpond said: Very important... Are you a one-knee kneeler or do you kneel on both knees? Are you using thee's and thou's? Do you think the prayer in your head or speak it out loud? Full voice or whisper? Was correct grammar employed? How did you phrase the question? Did you show any bias in so doing? Did you ask if the policy was the Lord's will or did you ask for a confirmation of the handbook's continued veracity? Perhaps there was pride in your heart as you may have already believed that the policy should be reversed a full 3.5 years earlier than the prophet. And you accused me of mocking! Nice double standard. 👍 2
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, kllindley said: And you accused me of mocking! Nice double standard. 👍 Yes, there's no difference between my struggle to remain in the church after a faith transition and CV's pressing us repeatedly for details on what we say when we offer our personal prayers. Edited October 1, 2019 by rockpond 1
kllindley Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, rockpond said: Which to me sounds like he wants to judge if you asked in a way that is consistent with his understanding of gospel principles on the matter. Nice mind reading. When when he has repeatedly explicitly denied that intention. You wouldn't tolerate that from another poster about yourself. "Which sounds to me like @rockpond judges anyone who disagrees with him as spiritually corrupt or ignorant."
kllindley Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 Just now, rockpond said: Yes, there's no difference between my struggle to remain in the church after a faith transition and CV's pressing us repeatedly for details on how we pray. Your comment had nothing to do with your own struggle. It was telling me how you hoped I would respond if the leadership finally teaches that God approves same-sex relationships. 1
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, kllindley said: Nice mind reading. When when he has repeatedly explicitly denied that intention. You wouldn't tolerate that from another poster about yourself. "Which sounds to me like @rockpond judges anyone who disagrees with him as spiritually corrupt or ignorant." CV stated that he would not judge our conclusions. But he does want to form an opinion or conclusion about how we went about receiving personal revelation... 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I'm looking to compare alternative approaches with what I've summarized. And he identified the criteria he is using. 8 hours ago, CV75 said: I will certainly believe your answer about how you went about asking God about the policy (it is not a question about how you were answered). This is no more personal than what I've offered about the process (I've to summarize the basic elements below based on Alma 32, Moroni 10, and General Conference talks). I think it is very helpful to discuss the method people follow in finding spiritual answers (in this case, concerning the policy through prayer). Identify what is taught and testified by the prophets (in this case, the policy), or the subject of prayer. Settle upon a predisposition or bias on the subject by prayerfully seeking the Spirit to guide us in our study, pondering, developing and deciding upon a proposition and cultivating a desire to believe (or faith, or hope) in the subject of prayer. Pray with real intent, or with faith in getting a confirmation and a willingness to act on the confirmation. Being open to the Spirit's confirmation, which can come as an affirmative thought or feeling; no answer at all, meaning an answer if not expedient for now; a stupor of thought. We may feel comfort and peace with the results, or resistance to them. I'm not asking you to be any more personal than to describe what you did in terms of these principles, or if there were additional principles you applied. 1
kllindley Posted October 1, 2019 Author Posted October 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, rockpond said: But he does want to form an opinion or conclusion about how we went about receiving personal revelation... Really? Compare = form an opinion or conclusion? I tend to use the listed definition: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. I didn't see him use "evaluate," "judge," or "form an opinion or conclusion." That seems to be purely your projection. 3
Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, kllindley said: Really? Compare = form an opinion or conclusion? I tend to use the listed definition: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. I didn't see him use "evaluate," "judge," or "form an opinion or conclusion." That seems to be purely your projection. Me either. Looks like curiosity about the process that has led a couple of posters to be very positive about what knowledge they believed they received. I am now interested as well. Edited October 1, 2019 by Calm 1
Jake Starkey Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, kllindley said: Really? Compare = form an opinion or conclusion? I tend to use the listed definition: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. I didn't see him use "evaluate," "judge," or "form an opinion or conclusion." That seems to be purely your projection. Then you did not clearly think about what he wrote: yes, his inference to judge or evaluate or form an opinion was certainly his intent about how others prayed.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 40 minutes ago, kllindley said: Really? Compare = form an opinion or conclusion? I tend to use the listed definition: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. I didn't see him use "evaluate," "judge," or "form an opinion or conclusion." That seems to be purely your projection. Here’s what I wrote: 2 hours ago, rockpond said: As he notes above, he seems to want to know "how one formulates the petition or proposal for confirmation in line with more detailed teachings". Which to me sounds like he wants to judge if you asked in a way that is consistent with his understanding of gospel principles on the matter. And, yes, this does seem to be what he wants to do. He even listed his criteria in the previous post which I quoted for you. I’m not even sure why this is a problem for you.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 36 minutes ago, Calm said: Me either. Looks like curiosity about the process that has led a couple of posters so positive about what knowledge they believed they received. I am now interested as well. I’ve answered his question. What I won’t do is provide a transcript of my prayers. 2
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, kllindley said: Really? Compare = form an opinion or conclusion? I tend to use the listed definition: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between. I didn't see him use "evaluate," "judge," or "form an opinion or conclusion." That seems to be purely your projection. 45 minutes ago, Calm said: Me either. Looks like curiosity about the process that has led a couple of posters so positive about what knowledge they believed they received. I am now interested as well. Thank you for these insights. I think comparing various methods and processes to learning truth is extremely valuable, and if someone has found a way, I would think they would have the confidence and desire to share. I know I have been cast as having a personally critical and judgmental motive, but I introduced my thoughts many pages ago in a reply to @JulieM in which two outspoken posters were given the "@" to see, with an explanation that I am only looking at their claims and not their persons, which have the protection of pseudonymity anyway. Edited October 1, 2019 by CV75 1
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: I’ve answered his question. What I won’t do is provide a transcript of my prayers. I never asked for that. I would like to understand how you framed the question or petition; naturally you may paraphrase.
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 27 minutes ago, CV75 said: I am only looking at their claims and not their persons, which have the protection of pseudonymity anyway. Looking at our claims to what end?
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 26 minutes ago, CV75 said: I never asked for that. I would like to understand how you framed the question or petition; naturally you may paraphrase. Are you under the impression that it was just a single question and not a lengthy process of studying, pondering, and multiple prayers?
Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I’ve answered his question. What I won’t do is provide a transcript of my prayers. I am interested more in Starkey's process since he, unlike you, is taking on a much stronger position with rejecting others' experience as valid. I am always curious about people who interpret their spiritual experiences in this way, whatever position they hold. I apologize for the name misspelling. One of those 'see it a certain way at first and never look close enough to notice read it wrong' until I saw the name in a different context (he repped the post ). Edited October 1, 2019 by Calm 1
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: I am interested more in Stapley's process since he, unlike you, is taking on a much stronger position with rejecting others' experience as valid. I am always curious about people who interpret their spiritual experiences in this way, whatever position they hold. Fair enough. But I assume you know and @CV75 knows that @Jake Starkey isn't going to be able to provide anything about his process that will convince anyone here that he should be rejecting others' experiences, right? While I know that my experience in seeking answers on this matter has been intensely spiritual, has brought me closer to my Heavenly Father, and has provided me answers as powerful as any I've ever received, I also know that my experience is not meaningful to anyone else nor should it be used to reject their experiences (even though I may not always be the best at acting that way). Edited October 1, 2019 by rockpond 2
Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Fair enough. But I assume you know and @CV75 knows that @Jake Starkey isn't going to be able to provide anything about his process that will convince anyone here that he should be rejecting others' experiences, right? I am not looking to be convinced or others to be, I am wondering why he thinks they should be. 1
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Calm said: I am not looking to be convinced or others to be, I am wondering why he thinks they should be. Okay. You aren't satisfied with his earlier declaration that he is one of the "alphas"?
Calm Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, rockpond said: Okay. You aren't satisfied with his earlier declaration that he is one of the "alphas"? Yeah...not really understanding what that means in this context. Alphas prove/compete for dominance rather than just claim it as done here. Edited October 1, 2019 by Calm
kllindley Posted October 2, 2019 Author Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, rockpond said: He even listed his criteria in the previous post which I quoted for you. He stated that he was outlining his process and asking whether it was the same or different for others. Did he ever use the word criteria or is that purely inference on your part? 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I’m not even sure why this is a problem for you. It is a problem for me because I started the thread and felt that it was reasonable to point out what I saw as misrepresentation of his statements. I welcomed being corrected when I was wrong about the positions you, and others, took. I guess I erroneously believed that you would also be interested in being accurate.
mfbukowski Posted October 2, 2019 Posted October 2, 2019 9 hours ago, Jake Starkey said: CV75 will not answer, "The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?" It seems you are not understanding the real issue What parent would want their children baptized into a church which teaches that their parents are living in sin and will face eternal consequences for their sin? That they will never be able to be "in heaven" together as a family? To me that is child abuse to REQUEST that your child be taught that about his/her parents. The church has a right to preach what it believes is correct and parents should have the wisdom NOT to put their children in that situation. So now I will suppose you will attack the church's beliefs but that is not the issue! The issue is WHY would a parent want to trouble their child with such questions? Yours seems to be a very simplistic approach to me. The church, and rightly so, was concerned about the family conflict baptizing the children would cause and still is. You don't even see it. Are you a parent who would want that for your child? 1
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