Jehovah and His Premortal Ministry

[The Nehor]

On 9/21/2019 at 4:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

That is the Abyss or Deep in Genesis 1

Which is why I still think the earth is made of the corpse of Tiamat.

One thing I liked about one of the most common tellings of the Marduk creation myth is that the gods were set to till the Earth and complained so much so they made humans to do the work instead. The logical inference is that if the humans complain too much Marduk might make a lesser life form to take care of the grunt work of the Earth.

[SettingDogStar]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Which is why I still think the earth is made of the corpse of Tiamat.

One thing I liked about one of the most common tellings of the Marduk creation myth is that the gods were set to till the Earth and complained so much so they made humans to do the work instead. The logical inference is that if the humans complain too much Marduk might make a lesser life form to take care of the grunt work of the Earth.

Sounds legit. I’m down. 

[Ahab]

On 9/13/2019 at 6:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

No, you understand correctly.   Current Church teachings state that Jehovah is the premortal Jesus.  That didn't become Church teaching until Talmage.  The first mention of the idea was Franklin Richards some time in the 1870s.

Prior to that Jehovah and premortal Jesus were two separate beings in Church teachings, which is what I believe too.

I think we refer to Jesus as Jehovah because most of the time when we see biblical text stating Jehovah did or said something we know it was Jesus acting under the direction of our Father in heaven.  Divine investiture of authority, we call it. We also know that there were a few times when our Father in heaven said or did something himself, not acting through Jesus, sometimes appearing in text as either Jehovah or Yahweh Elohim, so to help avoid confusion we refer to our Father as Elohim and Jesus as Jehovah, even though both could be referred to as Jehovah.

We gotta have some way to tell them apart!

Edited September 24, 2019 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would. My ideas on the Godhead and the Plan of Salvation are idiosyncratic enough to work with either.

Just another reason I like you.  We are both believing members who have their own idiosyncratic beliefs.  Scarily enough though I am probably the more critical of us.
I need to learn to be more like the Nehor...

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just another reason I like you.  We are both believing members who have their own idiosyncratic beliefs.  Scarily enough though I am probably the more critical of us.
I need to learn to be more like the Nehor...

Requires a mental disorder. Trust me, not worth it.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Requires a mental disorder. Trust me, not worth it.

Most people have one of those, I believe.  Mental disorder.  Mental problem.  Some problem with the way we think about something.  Some demon inside our body with us tormenting our mind and causing us to think something stupid aka evil.

It happens all the time or at least a lot, I tell ya!   So you're really not all that unusual, The Nehor!  A little more outspoken about some things than some of us are but really you are a lot like us and we are a lot like you, too. 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

A little more outspoken about some things than some of us are but really you are a lot like us and we are a lot like you, too. 

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Warhammer or World of Warcraft?

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think we refer to Jesus as Jehovah because anytime we see biblical text stating Jehovah did or said something we know it was Jesus acting under the direction of our Father in heaven.  Divine investiture of authority, we call it. We also know that there were a few times when our Father in heaven said or did something himself, not acting through Jesus, sometimes appearing in text as either Jehovah or Yahweh Elohim, so to help avoid confusion we refer to our Father as Elohim and Jesus as Jehovah, even though both could be referred to as Jehovah.

We gotta have some way to tell them apart!

Absolutely.  Not disagreeing there.
The Church generally teaches that if "The Lord" in the OT has an attribute that couldn't be Christ then it must be the Father.  It's a nice neat simple explanation.  I'm just not sure it's the right one.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Absolutely.  Not disagreeing there.
The Church generally teaches that if "The Lord" in the OT has an attribute that couldn't be Christ then it must be the Father.  It's a nice neat simple explanation.  I'm just not sure it's the right one.

Who else do you think it might be if not one of them?  The Holy Ghost?  I think probably not because that kind of stuff really wasn't his job.  The reason I think we say it's either the Father or the Son is because when the Son acted he acted under the direction of the Father and he was the only one who was appointed to act in that capacity as our Father.  The Son was the one who was the Mediator between us, so if it wasn't a Mediator then it had to be the one who appointed the Mediator.  As far as I know.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Ahab

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Who else do you think it might be if not one of them?  The Holy Ghost?  I think probably not because that kind of stuff really wasn't his job.  The reason I think we say it's either the Father or the Son is because when the Son acted he acted under the direction of the Father and he was the only one who was appointed to act in that capacity as our Father.  The Son was the one who was the Mediator between us, so if it wasn't a Mediator then it had to be the one who appointed the Mediator.  As far as I know.

There are generations of Gods that predate OUR Father, his Son, and the Holy Ghost.
The Eloheim is a vast group as you are so fond of reminding us.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, JLHPROF said:

The OT descriptions of Yaweh frequently include attributes requiring a physical body or to a being capable of creating our spirit bodies.  Christ as a premortal spirit was neither. 

The OT specifically commanded praying to Jehovah, something Jesus specifically instructed differently  - only to the Father in his name.

However since D&C 110 positively identies Christ as holding the Jehovah office, I am personally of the belief that someone holding the office of Jehovah is a resurrected Savior.

This answers all discrepancies in my opinion, both in OT and new revelation.  It even covers Christ's statement I AM as a foreshadowing of his sacrifice.  It also explains how he says he does nothing except that which the Father did.

So yes. In the OT (and endowment) I believe Jehovah was another Christ already resurrected.  And our resurrected Jesus is now our Jehovah and will be the Jehovah overseeing new worlds.

Just my opinion.

 

On 9/13/2019 at 7:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

No, you understand correctly.   Current Church teachings state that Jehovah is the premortal Jesus.  That didn't become Church teaching until Talmage.  The first mention of the idea was Franklin Richards some time in the 1870s.

Prior to that Jehovah and premortal Jesus were two separate beings in Church teachings, which is what I believe too.

It is always helpful to see what Jesus himself said about that:  "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am',” (Jn 8:58) referring directly to Exodus 3:14 (Ehyeh "I am"), which is the same person and title as YHWH "He is.".  The Jews who heard Jesus say that knew that he was claiming to be Ehyeh/YHWH and accused him of blasphemy.  Both terms are titles, not names, and can be held by both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.  When YHWH and two angels came to Abraham encamped on the Plain of Mamre, he ate a meal prepared by Abe.  Can an umembodied spirit eat a meal?  In that instance, YHWH was obviously God the Father.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Warhammer or World of Warcraft?

No idea. I do not generally research images I grab.

[mfbukowski]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:53 AM, Ahab said:

I think sometimes some people are so intent on disagreeing with me that they can't see when they do in fact agree with me.

The physical bodies of both Adam and Eve were made from the dust of the earth they were created from, whatever planet that earth was on, and the dust of that earth Eve's physical body was created from was taken from the side of Adam's physical body.

Or at least that is my understanding of the story and I am sticking to it.

 

Perhaps you don't care but if you want to get along better hereabouts maybe using a sentence like that last one would make you sound less arrogant.  When you make pronouncements about "How Things ARE" while you are putting forth your own ideas it can put-off people simply because of the way you phrase things.  If you say things like "The way I see it is....."  Or as you put it above "That's my interpretation, "etc....  Perhaps it is more evident to me because I have the same tendency.  Sometimes I genuinely feel that I am the only one who knows "how it really is"- but even if I am right, people will not listen simply because they don't like your attitude.

I am just bringing this up as your friend, and I think we have gotten to know each other fairly well.  I don't mean to be rude, I would just like you to understand it as a suggestion from one brother to another, as perhaps you might point out to someone who forgot to tighten their tie etc.  I hope you take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Just another reason I like you.  We are both believing members who have their own idiosyncratic beliefs.  Scarily enough though I am probably the more critical of us.
I need to learn to be more like the Nehor...

Well I suppose I am a bit that way too, but of course what sets us apart is that I am always right. 

 

[Ahab]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Perhaps you don't care but if you want to get along better hereabouts maybe using a sentence like that last one would make you sound less arrogant.  When you make pronouncements about "How Things ARE" while you are putting forth your own ideas it can put-off people simply because of the way you phrase things.  If you say things like "The way I see it is....."  Or as you put it above "That's my interpretation, "etc....  Perhaps it is more evident to me because I have the same tendency.  Sometimes I genuinely feel that I am the only one who knows "how it really is"- but even if I am right, people will not listen simply because they don't like your attitude.

I am just bringing this up as your friend, and I think we have gotten to know each other fairly well.  I don't mean to be rude, I would just like you to understand it as a suggestion from one brother to another, as perhaps you might point out to someone who forgot to tighten their tie etc.  I hope you take it in the spirit in which it is intended.

Thank you for trying to fix me. Now please go fix The Nehor.  And rockpond.  And stemebow.  And cinepro. And, well, everybody else who shares the thoughts that are going through their own minds, aka spirits.  We all have some problem or another.  Can you save us all? 

Help me!  Help me!  Help me!... and everybody else who needs to be fixed!

I'll tell you what.  How about if you just take anything I say as coming from just me unless you get a feeling that maybe God has inspired something I am saying, and then you can take what I say as God's word, too.  But only then, when you know from God, for yourself.

Deal?   I think you and everybody else should already know to think that way ALL of the time but just in case that wasn't clear you can print out what I just said and tape it to your screen or otherwise try to remember it when you see anybody say anything.

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I suppose I am a bit that way too, but of course what sets us apart is that I am always right. 

It does make life easier doesn't it.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Thank you for trying to fix me. Now please go fix The Nehor.  And rockpond.  And stemebow.  And cinepro. And, well, everybody else who shares the thoughts that are going through their own minds, aka spirits.  We all have some problem or another.  Can you save us all? 

Help me!  Help me!  Help me!... and everybody else who needs to be fixed!

I'll tell you what.  How about if you just take anything I say as coming from just me unless you get a feeling that maybe God has inspired something I am saying, and then you can take what I say as God's word, too.  But only then, when you know from God, for yourself.

Deal?   I think you and everybody else should already know to think that way ALL of the time but just in case that wasn't clear you can print out what I just said and tape it to your screen or otherwise try to remember it when you see anybody say anything.

The question was whether or not you knew that.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The question was whether or not you knew that.

That some people may perceive me as having an arrogant attitude?  Yes, I knew that, even when I am not and am simply sharing what I know or interpret or understand concerning the things that I see.

And just to help you to be a little more aware of something, I consider a person who says someone else is arrogant to be far more likely of having an arrogant attitude by thinking it is his or her place to tell someone else they are being arrogant.  Even if they are correct in their assessment, I think it is arrogant for a person to put themselves in that position to... hmm, what shall we call it... judge or assess another person's attitude when they are simply stating what they perceive as they perceive it.

Just as it is not necessary for a prophet of God to say something like "Thus saith the Lord" when sharing what the Lord has told him, so too is it not necessary for a person to say "This is what I think" when sharing their perceptions as that person perceives things.

I think everyone should always consider whatever anyone says as what that person is saying without assuming that person is speaking for God or declaring the truth, only accepting what someone says as the truth or what God would say when God confirms that it is. 

[SettingDogStar]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

It is always helpful to see what Jesus himself said about that:  "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am',” (Jn 8:58) referring directly to Exodus 3:14 (Ehyeh "I am"), which is the same person and title as YHWH "He is.".  The Jews who heard Jesus say that knew that he was claiming to be Ehyeh/YHWH and accused him of blasphemy.  Both terms are titles, not names, and can be held by both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.  When YHWH and two angels came to Abraham encamped on the Plain of Mamre, he ate a meal prepared by Abe.  Can an umembodied spirit eat a meal?  In that instance, YHWH was obviously God the Father.

There is an idea, which I’m not opposed to, that a premortal Jesus possesses a body. That He had served righteously on another world, proved His worth and was now given the opportunity to be a Savior for the Fathers children in another creation. Thus the great “condescension” of God was that He gave up His body to come this earth and die for us, gave up the body and glory He earned temporarily to Save us. Of course this step then allows Him to make the greatest sacrifice of Love and Consecration of all time..thus allowing Him to now step into the shoes of a Father.

Or so I’ve heard. Not saying it’s true by any means, but it is interesting! It would also allow Christ to have visited Abraham and the Israelites on the mount and eat and drink with them!

[Robert F. Smith]

26 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

There is an idea, which I’m not opposed to, that a premortal Jesus possesses a body. That He had served righteously on another world, proved His worth and was now given the opportunity to be a Savior for the Fathers children in another creation. Thus the great “condescension” of God was that He gave up His body to come this earth and die for us, gave up the body and glory He earned temporarily to Save us. Of course this step then allows Him to make the greatest sacrifice of Love and Consecration of all time..thus allowing Him to now step into the shoes of a Father.

Or so I’ve heard. Not saying it’s true by any means, but it is interesting! It would also allow Christ to have visited Abraham and the Israelites on the mount and eat and drink with them!

Sounds like reincarnation, and a lot of people believe in that.  There is no biblical warrant for it whatever, but it certainly is a popular belief in some Eastern religions.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

There is an idea, which I’m not opposed to, that a premortal Jesus possesses a body. That He had served righteously on another world, proved His worth and was now given the opportunity to be a Savior for the Fathers children in another creation. Thus the great “condescension” of God was that He gave up His body to come this earth and die for us, gave up the body and glory He earned temporarily to Save us. Of course this step then allows Him to make the greatest sacrifice of Love and Consecration of all time..thus allowing Him to now step into the shoes of a Father.

Or so I’ve heard. Not saying it’s true by any means, but it is interesting! It would also allow Christ to have visited Abraham and the Israelites on the mount and eat and drink with them!

When I think of the bodies we have, have had and will have in the future I think of people who have or had them and what we know of those types of bodies.  Adam and Eve, for example, are people who had only a spirit body like we did before we came down here, I'll call that Stage 1, but later were given an additional body which was the type of body they had until they fell, I'll call that Stage 2, at which point the body their spirit was in became mortal like ours are now, I'll call that Stage 3.  The purpose of the atonement, as I understand it, or at least one of the purposes, is to give us a way to return to Stage 2, restored to the condition of Adam's and Eve's bodies before they fell, Stage 2, and as I also understand things, once we're restored to Stage 2 our spirit will never again be able to separate from the body our spirit is in.  That would be death, if it happened, and supposedly we're not ever going to die again after we are resurrected back to our Stage 2 bodies.

So  that idea you mentioned doesn't seem plausible unless Jesus was not resurrected on that other world you postulate that he lived on before he came here to die, if indeed spirits never do separate from a resurrected body.  Otherwise resurrected bodies can die and we'll have to worry about death even after we are resurrected.  Not such a comforting thought, if you ask me.  I'm looking forward to being bullet proof and having bullets bounce off of my resurrected body if someone ever decides they would like to shoot me.  And I don't want knives to penetrate my body either.  And I don't want to be blown up by any missile or bomb.  In short, I do not want to have to die again after I die the first time.  Once is all I signed up for.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

And just to help you to be a little more aware of something, I consider a person who says someone else is arrogant to be far more likely of having an arrogant attitude by thinking it is his or her place to tell someone else they are being arrogant.  Even if they are correct in their assessment, I think it is arrogant for a person to put themselves in that position to... hmm, what shall we call it... judge or assess another person's attitude when they are simply stating what they perceive as they perceive it.

Point made, I genuinely apologize.

Yes I admit to arrogance and am working on it, but thanks for pointing out this instance.  It helps me be aware of it. 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

There is an idea, which I’m not opposed to, that a premortal Jesus possesses a body. That He had served righteously on another world, proved His worth and was now given the opportunity to be a Savior for the Fathers children in another creation. Thus the great “condescension” of God was that He gave up His body to come this earth and die for us, gave up the body and glory He earned temporarily to Save us. Of course this step then allows Him to make the greatest sacrifice of Love and Consecration of all time..thus allowing Him to now step into the shoes of a Father.

Or so I’ve heard. Not saying it’s true by any means, but it is interesting! It would also allow Christ to have visited Abraham and the Israelites on the mount and eat and drink with them!

Those kind of ideas are usually associated with ideas saying that the Father once was as we are now or that the savior was once as we are now etc leading to the false conclusion (false in terms of consistency with the story- since the only verification we can have is subjective spiritual confirmation of course- no "facts" about these things are possible)

Yet of course it is possible that the Father once was as we are now without having to believe he gave up his body- he simply progressed as we can progress and became God as presumably we can become like him without giving up our bodies.

We play different roles in life- I am a father and a son and an uncle, etc.

I see no doctrinal reason to propose that Christ visited with Abe and the boys.    What does that add to the story?  

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Those kind of ideas are usually associated with ideas saying that the Father once was as we are now or that the savior was once as we are now etc leading to the false conclusion (false in terms of consistency with the story- since the only verification we can have is subjective spiritual confirmation of course- no "facts" about these things are possible)

Yet of course it is possible that the Father once was as we are now without having to believe he gave up his body- he simply progressed as we can progress and became God as presumably we can become like him without giving up our bodies.

We play different roles in life- I am a father and a son and an uncle, etc.

I see no doctrinal reason to propose that Christ visited with Abe and the boys.    What does that add to the story?  

It’s doesn’t add anything per say, it would just solve the issue if someone believes that it was Christ and was confused how a spirit could eat.

 

Plus, according to Joseph and other leaders after him (and my own belief) the Father once was like us. I don’t know if He was a Savior or just a “normal” person, but I do strongly believe He was mortal at one point.