Wade Englund Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 18 hours ago, SouthernMo said: I see what you’re saying. But, I’m still not convinced that Jesus leads the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints any more or less than any other organization that is trying to follow him. It isn't my place to convince. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 On 4/23/2019 at 10:50 PM, Wade Englund said: It isn't my place to convince. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Thanks, -Wade Englund- I would respectfully disagree. The role of the Holy Spirit is to comfort, lead, teach, and guide toward righteousness. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables us to be the physical visible presence of God to a lost and dying world. I am unaware that convincing others of the truth of any one branch of Christianity is in His job description.
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Posted April 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Navidad said: I would respectfully disagree. The role of the Holy Spirit is to comfort, lead, teach, and guide toward righteousness. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables us to be the physical visible presence of God to a lost and dying world. I am unaware that convincing others of the truth of any one branch of Christianity is in His job description. It seems to me that is a very core tenant of the LDS faith that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth. It's the cornerstone of their epistemology. 6
Popular Post RevTestament Posted April 25, 2019 Popular Post Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: It seems to me that is a very core tenant of the LDS faith that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth. It's the cornerstone of their epistemology. John 16:13 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. I see basically everyone as being right here. I'm not sure what is being debated. We ultimately don't take credit for converting anyone. We see that as currently being the role of the Holy Spirit. We teach, and ask investigators to recognize any feelings they have about what is being taught, and to pray about what they are learning. As Navidad implies, the Holy Spirit leads us towards truth. Most Churches have at least some truth. It doesn't matter what Church you are in - if you pray as to whether Christ is our Savior, the Holy Spirit will give confirmation to those who pray after seeking with full intent. For this reason miraculous healing for instance is not really evidence of "the true" Church. God may heal those in other Churches simply because they have faith, and their time is not come. He may even talk to those in other Churches. If they keep their hearts open to truth, I believe ultimately, they will find their way to this Church despite the imperfections of men. I somewhat disagree with Wade in that I believe we/I do have a role in convincing converts, but ultimately, if someone is not witnessed to by the Holy Spirit, they will probably fade from the truth. Ultimately, it is currently His job to lead us to all truth - with the help of earthly followers. Edited April 25, 2019 by RevTestament 5
Storm Rider Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: It seems to me that is a very core tenant of the LDS faith that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth. It's the cornerstone of their epistemology. Isn't the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth? That is what the scriptures teach and if so, how does anyone think that the Holy Spirit does not teach/testify of truth? 2
MiserereNobis Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Isn't the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth? That is what the scriptures teach and if so, how does anyone think that the Holy Spirit does not teach/testify of truth? Of course. I wasn't disputing that, sorry if it came off that way. I was responding to Navidad's question about the LDS view of the Holy Spirit.
Wade Englund Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Navidad said: I would respectfully disagree. The role of the Holy Spirit is to comfort, lead, teach, and guide toward righteousness. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables us to be the physical visible presence of God to a lost and dying world. I am unaware that convincing others of the truth of any one branch of Christianity is in His job description. To me, the leading, teaching, and guiding by the Spirit towards righteousness (and I would add sanctifying and justifying and quickening-i.e. being made alive)) are not only the means towards convincing of truth (though I would phrase it differently as "increasing faith in the truth"), but they can't effectively occur except through the convincing witness or increasing faith in the truth through the Spirit. Indeed, it is the very essence of being born of the Spirit, and become one in heart, mind, and spirit.. Nevertheless, and in addition to scriptures and points already made, may I offer several others: Matthew 16:17 John 15:26-27 1 John 5:6, 8 Rom. 8:16 (1 Jn. 5:6). Heb. 10:15. 1 Corinthians 2:4, 10-12, 14 1 Corinthians 12:3-4, 7-11, 13 1 John 4:1-3, 6, 13 2 Corinthians 4:13 Acts 20:23 Acts 5:32 Luke 1:17 Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited April 25, 2019 by Wade Englund 3
Storm Rider Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Of course. I wasn't disputing that, sorry if it came off that way. I was responding to Navidad's question about the LDS view of the Holy Spirit. I don't recall studying the Catholic position on the Holy Spirit specifically. In what capacity does the Holy Spirit serve as the Spirit of Truth? To whom and to what effect? Yes, I did interpret your statement incorrectly - one of the foibles of this type of medium.
Calm Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Navidad said: guide toward righteousness Couldn't this be done in part through testifying/witnessing of God's truths, whatever those are? Edited April 25, 2019 by Calm
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: It seems to me that is a very core tenant of the LDS faith that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth. It's the cornerstone of their epistemology. I understand that. It is all very complicated. Epistemology is the study of beliefs and knowledge. A cornerstone of epistemology is that a belief does not have to be true to be believed. Hence, we look at the same set of facts and come up with different truths. MiserereNobis, has the Holy Spirit convinced you of the truth that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the only valid ordinances and the only valid priesthood in all the Christian community? He has not done so to me and I think that is a miss characterization of His role. I for sure don't expect folks here to agree with me. I am expressing nothing more than my understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit. I would never think of asking you to pray to the Spirit to see if you shouldn't become a conscientious objector, a key and unique tenet of being Anabaptist. I know that is unique to my faith; First, I have no right to ask others to pray to see if the Holy Spirit doesn't lead them to the same conclusion and second I do not believe that is His role.
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Isn't the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth? That is what the scriptures teach and if so, how does anyone think that the Holy Spirit does not teach/testify of truth? I couldn't agree more that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. My point, however weakly made is that I do not believe His role is to advocate for unique Mennonite truths, unique LDS truths, or unique Pentecostal truths (just to cite a few). I simply don't believe it is right to predict the answer the Holy Spirit will give to anyone about what is at its core a unique individual group's truth. Is it ok to assure me that if I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal to me the apostasy of the Christian Church for seventeen hundred years when my faith, doctrine, and historical knowledge already inform me otherwise? Should I encourage my LDS friends to pray to seek confirmation from the Holy Spirit that dancing is a sin? Oh, that is silly, she says - not to me its not. I simply believe we all at times triangulate the Holy Spirit into our unique belief systems and I think that does damage to His real mission. Edited April 25, 2019 by Navidad
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Calm said: Couldn't this be done in part through testifying/witnessing of God's truths, whatever those are? Of course it could. The challenge in my mind is to figure out how to test truth to know for sure it is God's truth and not the product of many other causative factors (dogma, culture, group consensus and identity, history, experiences, etc.). One test, in my thinking is that if there is no consensus in the Christian community for a belief it may not be "God's truth," such as those things I have already listed - dancing as a sin, conscientious objection as a tenet, that an apostasy gripped the Christian world for 1700 years, or that only LDS ordinances are valid for all of Christianity. We could list such idiosyncratic beliefs for every single Christian group. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything......these are all things I think about a lot. Perhaps they are not of particular interest to anyone else. I come from a small historic Christian community with many assured "God's truths." I have had to sift and sort through them for most of my 70 years. I have come to the conclusion that some are and some aren't "God's truth" even though all have at one time or another been presented to me as such. Edited April 25, 2019 by Navidad
MiserereNobis Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: I don't recall studying the Catholic position on the Holy Spirit specifically. In what capacity does the Holy Spirit serve as the Spirit of Truth? To whom and to what effect? This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It explains the 7 gifts of the Holy Ghost that are available to everyone at all times for their sanctification: Quote The gift of wisdom, by detaching us from the world, makes us relish and love only the things of heaven. The gift of understanding helps us to grasp the truths of religion as far as is necessary. The gift of counsel springs from supernatural prudence, and enables us to see and choose correctly what will help most to the glory of God and our own salvation. By the gift of fortitude we receive courage to overcome the obstacles and difficulties that arise in the practice of our religious duties. The gift of knowledge points out to us the path to follow and the dangers to avoid in order to reach heaven. The gift of piety, by inspiring us with a tender and filial confidence in God, makes us joyfully embrace all that pertains to His service. Lastly, the gift of fear fills us with a sovereign respect for God, and makes us dread, above all things, to offend Him. 3
MiserereNobis Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, Navidad said: I understand that. It is all very complicated. Epistemology is the study of beliefs and knowledge. A cornerstone of epistemology is that a belief does not have to be true to be believed. Hence, we look at the same set of facts and come up with different truths. MiserereNobis, has the Holy Spirit convinced you of the truth that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the only valid ordinances and the only valid priesthood in all the Christian community? He has not done so to me and I think that is a miss characterization of His role. I for sure don't expect folks here to agree with me. I am expressing nothing more than my understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit. I would never think of asking you to pray to the Spirit to see if you shouldn't become a conscientious objector, a key and unique tenet of being Anabaptist. I know that is unique to my faith; First, I have no right to ask others to pray to see if the Holy Spirit doesn't lead them to the same conclusion and second I do not believe that is His role. I believe one of His roles is to give spiritual wisdom and knowledge. He has not given me knowledge that the LDS church has the only valid priesthood. That doesn't make me conclude that it is not his role to give spiritual knowledge; that makes me conclude that the LDS church does not have valid priesthood (not meant to be offensive, friends, but it's obviously the case or I would be LDS). 2
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It explains the 7 gifts of the Holy Ghost that are available to everyone at all times for their sanctification: This is a wonderful example of what we might all define as "God's truth." These seven things are something that all of the big wide wonderful world of Christianity might come to consensus upon. That consensus may be only one test, but it is an important test of ascertaining "God's truth." Can anyone here think of any belief upon which the Christian community has reached a consensus that is false?
Calm Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 You need to list what you believe the Christian world has reached a consensus on first, I think.
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I believe one of His roles is to give spiritual wisdom and knowledge. He has not given me knowledge that the LDS church has the only valid priesthood. That doesn't make me conclude that it is not his role to give spiritual knowledge; that makes me conclude that the LDS church does not have valid priesthood (not meant to be offensive, friends, but it's obviously the case or I would be LDS). This is what I enjoy about this forum. MiserereNobis and I are non-LDS Christians, but I have a different view of the LDS priesthood, and perhaps of priesthood in general than he does. I may be wrong in that. He certainly can and should speak for himself. I certainly can only speak for me. I believe the LDS have a valid priesthood. I believe their ordained priesthood authority is valid in their church. Mine isn't. Their's isn't valid in mine. Certain LDS members, based on their level of authority may administer the ordinances in their church. I can't. They, with all their ordained priesthood authority cannot administer ordinances in my church. I can. All of that refers to administrative authority. As Christians, I believe all LDS believers also have the priesthood of all believers. This is the sacred or spiritual priesthood authority. It is the right and privilege of all believers. No one can deny that right to any other Christian. So yes, LDS priesthood holders have a valid priesthood authority within their own church. They also have the ubiquitous priesthood authority of all believers. Now I also understand that the concept of the priesthood of all believers is not a consensus among all Christians. Therefore I have to pause before I declare it to be "God's truth." I believe it to be true, but I would hesitate to encourage others to pray about it to come to the same conclusion as me. Edited April 25, 2019 by Navidad
Navidad Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Calm said: You need to list what you believe the Christian world has reached a consensus on first, I think. Hi Calm - that might be a great other thread. If it is a consensus then it isn't only what I think. We spend so much time debating and discussing our differences. Wouldn't it be wonderful and uplifting to develop a list of all the truths we hold in common as Christians? God is love . . . Christ is our Redeemer . . . grace is the gift of God, and on and on. Edited April 25, 2019 by Navidad
RevTestament Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Of course it could. The challenge in my mind is to figure out how to test truth to know for sure it is God's truth and not the product of many other causative factors (dogma, culture, group consensus and identity, history, experiences, etc.). One test, in my thinking is that if there is no consensus in the Christian community for a belief it may not be "God's truth," such as those things I have already listed - dancing as a sin, conscientious objection as a tenet, that an apostasy gripped the Christian world for 1700 years, or that only LDS ordinances are valid for all of Christianity. We could list such idiosyncratic beliefs for every single Christian group. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything......these are all things I think about a lot. Perhaps they are not of particular interest to anyone else. I come from a small historic Christian community with many assured "God's truths." I have had to sift and sort through them for most of my 70 years. I have come to the conclusion that some are and some aren't "God's truth" even though all have at one time or another been presented to me as such. 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: I believe one of His roles is to give spiritual wisdom and knowledge. He has not given me knowledge that the LDS church has the only valid priesthood. That doesn't make me conclude that it is not his role to give spiritual knowledge; that makes me conclude that the LDS church does not have valid priesthood (not meant to be offensive, friends, but it's obviously the case or I would be LDS). I am going to lump your two posts together because I feel my response applies to both. I don't believe God will support you further than you are ready to climb. So if you pray for confirmation of something before you are ready to understand or receive it, you probably won't get confirmation of it. I will give an early convert example of mine. Being raised Baptist I became concerned about their teaching that you are going to hell unless you are saved. I now believe that is true, but with caveats. I think it manifestly unfair for God to send all permanently to Hell even if they have never heard of Christ. Is that really the God of the Bible? So when young missionaries came and explained that all can have a chance to accept the gospel and eventually be saved, I was all ears. When they showed me scriptures from Paul and 1 Peter to support their assertions, I just felt it was true. Whether you want to call that a witness of the Spirit or something else I can't say. I just recognized it as something that struck a chord in me as being true. It is not the same as when I pray for confirmation, and receive a response. It is something inside of me that "recognizes" truth when I see it. I didn't feel I needed to pray about it even. I just became attentive and excited. Now this Church has several offshoots. How many practice proxy ordinances for the dead? As my study and understanding of the Bible has increased, I now see how things fit together. I now understand what the Bible is saying and what these scriptures are referring to. How come death and Hell give up the dead for the last judgment in Revelation? If Hell is necessarily permanent, why are they going to get resurrected and judged? I pose it is only because they can still repent when they come before Christ, and escape their otherwise permanent bonds of death. There are those who read the BoM and feel they do not receive an answer. While I was inactive, I decided to read the BoM with the intent of finding all its faults... I don't think that is going to yield the confirmation of its truth it promises if I were to pray about it. Have I prayed about the priesthood I have received? No. I don't have to. I have received confirmation that the BoM is true. I have received confirmation that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is His true Church. I have felt the power of the priesthood. If I had prayed about whether our priesthood is true before joining the Church, I really doubt I would have received any confirmation - I wasn't ready yet to act on it or even receive the full import of it. I hadn't yet acted on any faith beyond listening to lessons. Over the course of my membership in the Church, I have learned some lessons. As I have grown in scriptural study and historical understanding of Christianity, I have come to understand the doctrines of the Church better, and to better understand how they relate to scriptures. It is somewhat frustrating because I feel I understand the Bible so well, but it is difficult to relate that understanding to other Christians because of their preconceived notions. Coincidentally, I would add even the Saints have their preconceived notions, which they can't seem to get by because all their lives they have been taught something else, so I am not faulting anyone like other Christians in particular. It is just what it is - or the way it is. People usually disagree with me on these types of points because it doesn't "compute" - it doesn't fit their paradigm. When being a truth seeker one needs to be willing to look beyond their accepted paradigms, or they just won't recognize any "new" truth. They will rationalize scripture or do whatever rather than accept even what is plainly written and shown them. I am quite used to that. Are they ready to pray for confirmation about these things? Not hardly. Understanding comes precept by precept, and when they have understood and received confirmation on the first, they are ready to move on. If one says I am going to take this LDS thing to God, and pray about whether He is an exalted man or not, um, I don't think they are ready for the answer yet. That is an oracle of God, and one simply must appreciate and cultivate a desire to understand the scriptures as a whole to be ready to receive it. So will the Holy Spirit give you the confirmation you two speak of? Yes, He will but first you must show a true desire to learn the things of God, and to receive the answers you receive with utmost sanctity and commitment, because God will not be mocked by those who do not hold His oracles sacred. This is the truth of the two edged sword of truth - it cuts both ways - which is why Yeshua taught in parables to protect those not yet ready to receive more truth. Edited April 25, 2019 by RevTestament 2
Navidad Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So will the Holy Spirit give you the confirmation you two speak of? Yes, He will but first you must show a true desire to learn the things of God, and to receive the answers you receive with utmost sanctity and commitment, because God will not be mocked by those who do not hold His oracles sacred. This is the truth of the two edged sword of truth - it cuts both ways - which is why Yeshua taught in parables to protect those not yet ready to receive more truth. I have no idea how to respond to this post. I must first "show a true desire to learn the things of God . . . because God will not be mocked by those who do not hold His oracles sacred?" I have no words to express how saddened I am by this reply. I don't have a testimony of some of the truths of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I don't have a true desire to learn the things of God and because I mock God. Wow! So sad. I guess I have nothing more to say on this topic, except that I find it an interesting church that blames and devalues the commitment of its seekers (and not even one by one) for not coming up with the right answer to a question that obviously has only one correct answer. Any and all other answers indicate a fault in the seeker, and in this case, terrible faults. Edited April 26, 2019 by Navidad 1
MiserereNobis Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 49 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I don't believe God will support you further than you are ready to climb. So if you pray for confirmation of something before you are ready to understand or receive it, you probably won't get confirmation of it. 49 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So will the Holy Spirit give you the confirmation you two speak of? Yes, He will but first you must show a true desire to learn the things of God, and to receive the answers you receive with utmost sanctity and commitment, because God will not be mocked by those who do not hold His oracles sacred. This is the truth of the two edged sword of truth - it cuts both ways - which is why Yeshua taught in parables to protect those not yet ready to receive more truth. Ah, now I understand why you're not Catholic. You're not ready for it because you don't have a true desire, nor do you have sanctity or commitment, nor do you hold God's oracles sacred. Hopefully you'll get your mess fixed so that God can finally tell you to become Catholic. 2
RevTestament Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: Ah, now I understand why you're not Catholic. You're not ready for it because you don't have a true desire, nor do you have sanctity or commitment, nor do you hold God's oracles sacred. Hopefully you'll get your mess fixed so that God can finally tell you to become Catholic. Ha. Touche. Nice try. Yeah, when we get to this point people can get offended. What? Are you saying I'm not good enough? God withheld things about heaven Paul was not allowed to repeat. He doesn't appear in person for a reason. It is nothing personal. If you don't like it, take it up with Him. However, this is not the reason I am not Catholic. It has nothing to do with the quality of Catholic people. Most of those I have met are wonderful people. It is just that I disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Catholic interpretation of scripture. So, no my friend your Church had its chance - I attended a Catholic school for 4 years - in my formative years no less - so Catholicism had its chance to convince me. I was quite earnest. But, I will not be going back to Catholicism. My calling is elsewhere. Sorry I brought it up.
Wade Englund Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 6 hours ago, Navidad said: I couldn't agree more that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. My point, however weakly made is that I do not believe His role is to advocate for unique Mennonite truths, unique LDS truths, or unique Pentecostal truths (just to cite a few). I simply don't believe it is right to predict the answer the Holy Spirit will give to anyone about what is at its core a unique individual group's truth. Is it ok to assure me that if I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal to me the apostasy of the Christian Church for seventeen hundred years when my faith, doctrine, and historical knowledge already inform me otherwise? Should I encourage my LDS friends to pray to seek confirmation from the Holy Spirit that dancing is a sin? Oh, that is silly, she says - not to me its not. I simply believe we all at times triangulate the Holy Spirit into our unique belief systems and I think that does damage to His real mission. It is not my place to dictate to the Spirit what the Spirit can or can't advocate or what should or shouldn't be prayed for. Again, that is the role of the Spirit. My role is to listen for and follow the promptings where ever they may lead. In other words, it isn't my place to say where the Spirit should guide me, or what truths it should teach me and confirm to me as truths, or when to comfort me, etc. Otherwise, I make myself the guide and teacher and comforter and arbiter of truth, thereby rendering the Spirit effectively useless. But, to each their own. Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Navidad Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) No vale la pena. Hasta luego! Edited April 27, 2019 by Navidad
Wade Englund Posted April 27, 2019 Posted April 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Navidad said: No vale la pena. Hasta luego! Your comments wer very helpful to me. They caused me to think deeper. So, I am sorry to see you go. But, all the best to you. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Recommended Posts