If Jesus Christ was so radical, why not buck the system and....

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

In my sisters ward, it was not Religious Education experts...just a bunch of random professors and a lot of lawyers.

None of which were women? Women professors and lawyers, in my experience, behave much like their male counterparts. It’s human nature.

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you care to comment on Alma 13?

Do you think I’m trying to steal your priesthood? 

Would it kill anyone for female leadership to be represented at significant world events? 

Would it kill my ward to have more than 10% participation by women in testimony meeting and Sunday school? 

Edit: I did suggest “apostleship” in my original post.  Would it hurt to have women’s leadership positions more prominent? 

Your reaction suggests you maybe from my geographical area. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Really? Do any of them have young children at home?

94, 86, 89, 85, 77, 77, 66, 78, 73, 68, 67, 63, 65, 64, 60.

Ha, ha, you semi got me there! I should have put "were" not "are". But then again they are going to their grandchildren's programs, etc. alone. Or even helping babysit, minus, Wendy and Kristen.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I find it interesting that if I make an observation of how things are in my area, people are swift to invalidate by saying “well that’s not how it is here”. This is not the first time this has happened here. 

I am sure I’m the ONLY person in a ward where women are not comfortable participating (s/) - regardless, it would be nice if perhaps I could share my experience and frustration and not be gaslit. 

I’m wondering though really about God.  Did the Savior, while on the earth, recognize women’s equality? Did he see that humans at the time did not treat women equally? 

I have lived in 14 wards and visited dozens, but I haven’t  experienced the kind of male particicipatory dominance you describe. In my current ward, the most frequent contributor in GD class is a sister. No one resents her for that.  Others share their experiences that may not correspond with yours. That does not mean they are trying to “gaslight” you. That simply means they have different perceptions and experiences than you. Perhaps could you explain what you mean by equality.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have lived in 14 wards and visited dozens, but I haven’t  experienced the kind of male particicipatory dominance you describe.Others share their experiences that may not correspond with yours. That does not mean I are trying to “gaslight” you. That simply means I have different experiences than you. Perhaps could you explain what you mean by equality.

Let’s start with having the general relief society presidents presence in the most important positive religious world event of the week documented by her mug in the photo. 

These messages are strong for us as women, even if trifling to you. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ha, ha, you semi got me there! I should have put "were" not "are". But then again they are going to their grandchildren's programs, etc. alone. Or even helping babysit, minus, Wendy and Kristen.

How do you know this?

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Let’s start with having the general relief society presidents presence in the most important positive religious world event of the week documented by her mug in the photo. 

These messages are strong for us as women, even if trifling to you. 

Trifling?

You have brought up your ward situation several times. That is what I am addressing 

Are you speaking for yourself it for all LDS women?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Let’s start with having the general relief society presidents presence in the most important positive religious world event of the week documented by her mug in the photo. 

These messages are strong for us as women, even if trifling to you. 

I read the Sheri Dew was there and travels often with Pres. Nelson and his wife.  I'm not sure what her calling is right now?  (I'll look too..)

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you know this?

Actually, Wendy and Kristen could offer to babysit grandkids and great grandkids or go to programs, didn't think of that at first. And I can't possibly "know" this. But I can surmise it happening.

Recently I read that some church donors were also invited to attend the Rome temple, from what I read their trips were paid for. But I don't know this for certain.

But it sure would have been nice if some of the church's women leaders were represented at the Rome temple as well. I'm sure some who were able would have loved to be there. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Tacenda

[Raingirl]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Do you think I’m trying to steal your priesthood? 

Would it kill anyone for female leadership to be represented at significant world events? 

Would it kill my ward to have more than 10% participation by women in testimony meeting and Sunday school? 

Edit: I did suggest “apostleship” in my original post.  Would it hurt to have women’s leadership positions more prominent? 

Your reaction suggests you maybe from my geographical area. 

As I’ve previously stated, women in the wards I’ve live in, participate as much or more than the men. 

As for Fast & Testimony meeting, I spend most of them wondering if any men (other than the member of the bishopric who kicked it off) are going to get up. 

But that doesn’t fit with your narrative, does it?

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

As I’ve previously stated, women in the wards I’ve live in, participate as much or more than the men. 

As for Fast & Testimony meeting, I spend most of them wondering if any men (other than the member of the bishopric who kicked it off) are going to get up. 

But that doesn’t fit with your narrative, does it?

No it doesn’t. I believe you.

please hear my experience.  I have sat in Sunday school for years in my present ward and been troubled by the dynamic.  The picture was passed around, we were reading New Testament, and the thoughts and feelings I had were real and legitimate.  

If you are willing to talk with me about my experience and encourage me or inspire me I’m open to that. 

 

[MustardSeed]

I’ll also refuse to believe that my experience of women taking a back seat in “presence” is isolated to my ward. 

[Bernard Gui]

45 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Do you think I’m trying to steal your priesthood? 

Would it kill anyone for female leadership to be represented at significant world events? 

Would it kill my ward to have more than 10% participation by women in testimony meeting and Sunday school? 

Edit: I did suggest “apostleship” in my original post.  Would it hurt to have women’s leadership positions more prominent? 

Your reaction suggests you maybe from my geographical area. 

I’ll also refuse to believe that my experience of women taking a back seat in “presence” is isolated to my ward. 

Steal my Priesthood? How could you do that? It’s not mine. Alma 13 explains this. How do you view that scripture? You are quick to jump to unwarranted conclusions, it seems. 

Do you project your ward onto the rest of the Church? What could I do to help remedy your situation? I’m sorry it’s that way, but it seems unusual to me based on my experience elsewhere in 4 foreign countries and 6 states. Could the sisters in your ward do something positive to make things better?

Perhaps the changes you desire in the general Church will happen. We shall see. 

If you live in the Pacific Northwest, we are neighbors. 

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Actually, Wendy and Kristen could offer to babysit grandkids and great grandkids or go to programs, didn't think of that at first. And I can't possibly "know" this. But I can surmise it happening.

Recently I read that some church donors were also invited to attend the Rome temple, from what I read their trips were paid for. But I don't know this for certain.

It would be interesting to know the total number of those who flew over.  Did any of them pay for their own trips (flights, hotels, food, etc.) or was it all paid for by the church?   Maybe some had the option to go at their own expense... 

Also, how many men vs. how many women?  The only one I've seen mentioned is Sheri Dew (and some wives...possibly all wives of the Apostles and the Prophet).  But, I may have missed it if some of the women who serve in general leadership were included.

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Recently I read that some church donors were also invited to attend the Rome temple, from what I read their trips were paid for. But I don't know this for certain.

A friendly CFR, please.

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It would be interesting to know the total number of those who flew over.  Did any of them pay for their own trips (flights, hotels, food, etc.) or was it all paid for by the church?   Maybe some had the option to go at their own expense... 

Also, how many men vs. how many women?  The only one I've seen mentioned is Sheri Dew (and some wives...possibly all wives of the Apostles and the Prophet).  But, I may have missed it if some of the women who serve in general leadership were included.

None of us seems to have much accurate information. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A friendly CFR, please.

I don't have one, just read a comment on reddit that this person knew about this happening. 

ETA: I could ask my former bishop from where I lived, he would know he works in the department of donations going to the church, or BYU. Here's the quote:

Know who else the Mormon church sent to the Rome temple? High net worth donors.

Just had a conversation with a BYU department dean. The church sent several of these deans (he was one of them) and their wives to accompany a bunch of high-end donors on an all-expenses-paid trip to Rome to see the temple and other tourist sites in Italy.

Think the church is egalitarian and doesn’t value individuals based on monetary value? Well, if all are equal then some are more equal than others.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Would it kill my ward to have more than 10% participation by women in testimony meeting and Sunday school? 

I’m not sure what the church as a whole can do to increase the women’s voices in your ward. That is something that is completely in the control of the women in your ward and not something that the men can impact that much. 

What do you think is holding the women of your ward back that isn’t happening in other wards where women feel more comfortable opening their mouths?  Figuring that out might be a good place to start. 😊

 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

I would love to see wives who accept the task of speaking along side their husbands frequently, such as Sis. Nelson, being officially set apart as a missionary (or something along those lines).  They are often acting, imo, like a senior missionary couple.  It makes more sense to me than having a woman speak from the standpoint of every other member could be in her position as she is not set apart and is only there because she is married to someone who needs to be there for his calling.  Recognize it as a calling for her because that is what she is functioning as and senior missionary seems to fit as far as I could tell.  

Do you know what blessings or settings apart are given to the Apostles’ wives?

[Gray]

14 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

...treat women as equals the way I believe He actually sees me? 

Why not have women as apostles? 

Would it have been “too” radical , or maybe it’s just that women are indeed not actually designed to be leaders? 

Or another reason? 

I have to admit, when in Sunday school today a picture of the general authorities in the Rome temple was passed around, zero female presence in the picture,  I thought to myself, it’s really no wonder women rarely contribute in Sunday school (for one).  I for one feel I’m really along for the ride.... unless there’s a personal service to fill or a children’s class to be taught. 

It never bothered me that there is a seeming imbalance, til today. 

Even radicals are a product of their time.

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't have one, just read a comment on reddit that this person knew about this happening. 

ETA: I could ask my former bishop from where I lived, he would know he works in the department of donations going to the church, or BYU. Here's the quote:

Know who else the Mormon church sent to the Rome temple? High net worth donors.

Just had a conversation with a BYU department dean. The church sent several of these deans (he was one of them) and their wives to accompany a bunch of high-end donors on an all-expenses-paid trip to Rome to see the temple and other tourist sites in Italy.

Think the church is egalitarian and doesn’t value individuals based on monetary value? Well, if all are equal then some are more equal than others.

Well, it must be true, then. 😊

I can’t imagine a “”high end donor” accepting or needing to have all their expenses paid for by the Church, but perhaps there are some who would. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It would be interesting to know the total number of those who flew over.  Did any of them pay for their own trips (flights, hotels, food, etc.) or was it all paid for by the church? 

My son Abogadissimo took his family over...at his expense, but he is not a General Authority.

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m not sure what the church as a whole can do to increase the women’s voices in your ward. That is something that is completely in the control of the women in your ward and not something that the men can impact that much. 

What do you think is holding the women of your ward back that isn’t happening in other wards where women feel more comfortable opening their mouths?  Figuring that out might be a good place to start. 😊

 

 Thank you bluebell for your thoughtful response. I was talking with my husband about this at the church as I said that the women really need to be whipped into shape and start participating. My husband disagreed in part,  And pointed out that the teacher caters to the man in his style of teaching and question asking.  He also held responsible the guys who apparently feel a need to be visible week after week. 

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My son Abogadissimo took his family over...at his expense, but he is not a General Authority.

Oh, of course, members went over at their own expense.

But how many traveled over that were paid for by the church?  That would be interesting to know, (but there may be some who also paid their own way in that group).

Body guards....and so on....

What did the newspapers call them...the "entourage"?

I do find it disappointing of some women leaders weren't included in that and hope that some were.

Edited March 18, 2019 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Aside from all that, how do you feel about women being university presidents, CEOs, or other high executives and leaders in secular institutions? Or in religious universities, colleges, and LDS institutes?

If they are the best qualified persons for the position, more power to them, in all meanings of the word. Most of my school principals over 42 years as a teacher were  women. Some were great, some weren’t. Same with the men.