Do the majority of members of the Latter-day Saints Church want to be known as Christians?

[JarMan]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Chasing the creeds helps you to avoid looking at your own beliefs for how they are perceived by many - heterodox.

I appreciate this comment both for its frankness and for showing what you believe the motives of Mormons to be. It appears you are suggesting that what we really want is to sit at the lunch table with the cool kids. If only we could get rid of these coke-bottle glasses and second-hand clothes maybe we'd be more acceptable.

But this isn't it at all. We love our coke-bottle glasses and second-hand clothes. We don't even mind if we're teased about them once in awhile. In fact, we might even occasionally overdo the whole contra-cool-kid-routine just to make sure it's noticed that, yep, we're a little different.

Before this discussion I didn't realize that there were many non-creedal Protestants. So thanks for the education on this subject. As you've pointed out, though, these non-creedal Protestants are generally not considered by other Christians to be non-Christian. Why is this? I think this is the question you are trying to provide an answer to. And your answer at first was that we Mormons are mistaken; nobody is making that claim at all. However, you've since changed the parameters of the discussion with the claim that no Protestants are using the creedal excuse to claim Mormons are non-Christian. So it turns out the Mormons weren't mistaken by addressing the issue. There really are people that use this against the Mormons. It's just not your people. By narrowing the discussion from all Christians to just Protestants in order to try and salvage your initial hypothesis you've managed to manufacture a reason to become defensive.

Let me offer an explanation for why Mormons are sometimes considered non-Christian while Protestants are not considered non-Christian on the very same basis. The reason is that the Protestants are currently sitting at the cool kids table: the Jesus Table. If Protestants are non-creedal, that's okay because they are basically orthodox on most issues. And after 500 years of fighting, close enough is good enough. But Mormons are definitely not orthodox. And they ain't sitting at the Jesus Table. So we'll use any argument at our disposal to exclude them. Even if by doing so we have to wink and nod at some of those around us.

Turns out Mormons don't really want to sit at the Jesus Table. They've got their own table: the Restored Jesus Table. According to Mormons it's the very same table Jesus sat at when he was in high school and wore thick glasses and hand-me-downs. People are free to believe our table was actually cobbled together 200 years ago out of pieces from the scrap pile. Actually, we really don't blame them for thinking this. But we think the lunchroom would be a better place if we could occasionally pull our tables together and talk about what we have in common.

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am trying to help you understand the pain and sadness I feel because I have no basic recognition from your hierarchy as a Christian

Except that you ARE acknowledged as a Christian by LDS.  

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

 How do we begin defusing that? Do we just give up? I am working hard at it, even this very weekend coming up. 

In Navidad's case: help you understand that baptismal authority and being a Christian are in LDS eyes two different things, and he is indeed a welcomed Christian?  For example, my daughter is unbaptized and my husband an Evangelical-- both are welcomed and acknowledged as being Christian.  True, they not yet validly baptized, but they have faith in God and relationship with Him-- they are Christians.  

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

 How do we begin defusing that? Do we just give up? I am working hard at it, even this very weekend coming up. You would have me comparing apples and oranges; I believe I am comparing apples to apples - the Latter-day Saints for the life of them, can't and won't see it. I am lost. LDS Christians simply seem to me to have no empathy for the very same thing they so deplore.

I'm sorry, but I got to be blunt here:

Do you have family members who tell you that you're going to burn in Hell for eternity?  That you are a servant of Satan for teaching your children to read the Bible?  Who forbid you from talking about Christ in their presence?  Who spout bald face lies about what you believe to your face with closed ears?  Who vehemently oppose ever talking to you about faith, let alone attending services with you?  And instead they come to your house they insist you pretend to not believe your faith and instead attend some random church they pick out on Sunday?   Relatives that pin-down your spouse and order them to "make you a Christian"?

No.  Instead you are acknowledged as a Christian, welcomed by your LDS ward, invited to speak from the pulpit, respected, acknowledged as an expert on many subjects, asked join in religious discussions, attend all sorts of activities, have people minster you at home, have many good friends.  

 

Frankly, that's not apples and apples.  I would LOVE to receive the treatment you are being subjected to.   I don't care if someone disagrees on matters of authority, in fact I think admire the views many non-LDS other folks have on authority.  What I'm asking for is to have my very love of Christ-- the center piece of who I am-- to even be acknowledged.  And a lot of the time I don't get that, even from family.  Navidad, I acknowledge that you hurt, but this is not an apples-to-apples case.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Except that you ARE acknowledged as a Christian by LDS.  

In Navidad's case: help you understand that baptismal authority and being a Christian are in LDS eyes two different things, and he is indeed a welcomed Christian?  For example, my daughter is unbaptized and my husband an Evangelical-- both are welcomed and acknowledged as being Christian.  True, they not yet validly baptized, but they have faith in God and relationship with Him-- they are Christians.  

I'm sorry, but I got to be blunt here:

Do you have family members who tell you that you're going to burn in Hell for eternity?  That you are a servant of Satan for teaching your children to read the Bible?  Who forbid you from talking about Christ in their presence?  Who spout bald face lies about what you believe to your face with closed ears?  Who vehemently oppose ever talking to you about faith, let alone attending services with you?  And instead they come to your house they insist you pretend to not believe your faith and instead attend some random church they pick out on Sunday?   Relatives that pin-down your spouse and order them to "make you a Christian"?

No.  Instead you are acknowledged as a Christian, welcomed by your LDS ward, invited to speak from the pulpit, respected, acknowledged as an expert on many subjects, asked join in religious discussions, attend all sorts of activities, have people minster you at home, have many good friends.  

 

Frankly, that's not apples and apples.  I would LOVE to receive the treatment you are being subjected to.   I don't care if someone disagrees on matters of authority, in fact I think admire the views many non-LDS other folks have on authority.  What I'm asking for is to have my very love of Christ-- the center piece of who I am-- to even be acknowledged.  And a lot of the time I don't get that, even from family.  Navidad, I acknowledge that you hurt, but this is not an apples-to-apples case.

Powerful post. You are right in everything you said. I am so sorry you are treated as you are, especially by family. You endure much for your faith. You have never heard from my keyboard that Saints are not Christians. I defend the reality and integrity of your faith everywhere I go. I don't just study it, I see it.  the relationship and lack thereof between Mormons and other Christians is very complex. If, as Jarman says, you all simply don't want to sit at the lunch table with other Chrustians, then I will give it up. I have made a mistake. I underestimated the strength of your (collective) need to cling to your beliefs about other Christians. it seems like I am banging my head against the wall in both sides. I dream of a day when both sides agree to stop trying to convert each other. That, I believe would warm God's heart and honor the sacrifice of his Son.

if I came in this forum like some do, loaded to convert you, I can see why, as someone said yesterday, I am now up against the entire forum for no other reason than I am trying to help you better understand the other. But you push me away saying, "No thank you, I have my own experiences with them. That is all I need to know, that is my truth" I wasn't ready for that. I have long drives today through lots of empty land. I will think about all this and pray for guidance. I must certainly change my talks. Thank you for the strength of your faith in the savior. I know He will honor that.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Powerful post. You are right in everything you said. I am so sorry you are treated as you are, especially by family. You endure much for your faith. You have never heard from my keyboard that Saints are not Christians. I defend the reality and integrity of your faith everywhere I go. I don't just study it, I see it.  the relationship and lack thereof between Mormons and other Christians is very complex. If, as Jarman says, you all simply don't want to sit at the lunch table with other Chrustians, then I will give it up. I have made a mistake. I underestimated the strength of your (collective) need to cling to your beliefs about other Christians. it seems like I am banging my head against the wall in both sides. I dream of a day when both sides agree to stop trying to convert each other. That, I believe would warm God's heart and honor the sacrifice of his Son.

if I came in this forum like some do, loaded to convert you, I can see why, as someone said yesterday, I am now up against the entire forum for no other reason than I am trying to help you better understand the other. But you push me away saying, "No thank you, I have my own experiences with them. That is all I need to know, that is my truth" I wasn't ready for that. I have long drives today through lots of empty land. I will think about all this and pray for guidance. I must certainly change my talks. Thank you for the strength of your faith in the savior. I know He will honor that.

Navidad, I appreciate so much the strength of your convictions, and the desire to invite LDS Christians to the "cool kids table" so to speak. Now, I know to you that there is no cool kids table, and it hurts you to see us debate about that, but I hope that you acknowledge that your hurt is the very hurt we feel from those whom you call your Christian brothers. We don't trust your Christian brothers because at least at a subliminal level our wounds still hurt. So, over the course of our 180 year history, we were content to sit at our own table, and invite others to it. So rather than insisting on being at the Christian table we became content to sit at the Mormon table, and be down-trodden and outcast Christians. That is one reason the Mormon identity grew so strong in the chosen home of the saints in the intermountain west. 

I have indicated on this forum that my past chosen self-identifier is LDS Christian. I think one reason that has not caught on is the reaction I sometimes get when I use that term - a snort or a retort that LDS are not Christian. That is not a very good way to start off a conversation. Instead, it was just easier to give into being called Mormon to avoid a spirit of contention - something LDS Christians strive to do. However, to those who are not familiar with the term LDS Christian, it is an opportunity for me to share beliefs. My first attempts to do that are with something all Christians are familiar with - the Bible - rather than bringing up right away Christ's visit to other sheep He said He must bring. I am not ashamed of my chosen faith, but I best know my own path of conversion, and that is what I share, because I believe that is what I can best help people identify with. If I get the retort, I assume that the person is not going to be open-minded enough to accept any new truth or Biblical interpretations. Rather than get into a contentious conversation, I end it there. Calling myself Mormon certainly wouldn't have helped in that situation anyway. Calling myself LDS Christian is not really an attempt to sit at the cool kids' table. It is an attempt - one person at a time - to invite others to my table - and maybe pull the tables together. But I am not going to change what I say so I can sit at their table. 

The reason you hurt is because we hurt. We cannot change the attitudes of other Christians. You wish us to apparently downgrade our rhetoric so to speak. You feel it stops us from being accepted as Christians. What we keep telling you is that it is not what prevents us from being accepted as Christians. We know. Many of us have lived it daily. Rather, there are long-seated biases in orthodoxy and its descendants which LDS Christianity directly confronts - a visible heavenly Father with a body, baptism for the dead, etc. Orthodoxy, so-called, long ago rejected such notions, but they have been ingrained into the "cool kids' table of beliefs." To sit there we cannot espouse these beliefs, but get pushed away. In all frankness downplaying our beliefs about priesthood authority is not going to change that Navidad. Rather than downplaying our beliefs about the Father, I believe it has been given as our Christian duty to teach the truth about Christ's own resurrection in physical bodily form, and his inheritance of the title of our Everlasting Father. I personally believe the Father is not pleased with any attempt to downplay this truth - it has been given to us as part of our charge as the restored gospel. And He shall rise at His appointed time - at the great day of YHWH spoken of by all the holy prophets which is nigh upon us - with a mighty force to defend Himself and His Son against all who will rebuke Him. But for the immediate future we still exercise the patience of the saints with calm resoluteness, and continue to invite others to the table of the down-trodden Christians with the words of our Savior in our ears that "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." Bless you Navidad.

[Gray]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:52 AM, RevTestament said:

I will? First of all, that would be  an improper translation of wə·rū·ḥōw. which is a form of ruach or the word all over the OT meaning breath or life. Second of all the speaker speaking as the I clearly identifies Himself as YHWH and says in the same verse He has spoken from the beginning. So the I/YHWH says YHWH and His Spirit hath sent me. Thirdly, the speaker identifies Himself as the Holy One of Israel, and their Redeemer. The Book of Mormon only uses the Holy One of Israel for Yeshua. I will attempt to show the above word for word:

 

"To sum up, there is little or nothing in pre-Christian Judaism to prepare for the sort of identification between Jesus and the Spirit which Paul and John seem to have envisaged, and nothing to provoke the idea of an incarnation of the Spirit in or as a man. The idea of God's Spirit as a power and presence (i.e. God's) which can be experienced in this world - that thought is well established. The idea of this divine power inspiring, transforming a man, and the hope for such experiences again in the coming age - that too. But of the Spirit as an entity in any sense independent of God, of Spirit as a divine hypostasis, there is nothing."

 Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry Into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation Paperback – 1996 by James D. G. Dunn

 

Quote

Isaiah 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; Have I not spoken in secret from the beginning?; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God/YHWH, and his Spirit/wə·rū·ḥōw, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord/YHWH, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Some try to claim that the prophet is identifying himself as "I" in verse 16, but that would break the usual rules of translation - is the prophet really saying he has spoken from the beginning, saying "there am I?"

In the Peshitta version of Matthew Yeshua is repeatedly referred to as Marya, and calls Himself Marya -- the Peshitta's version of YHWH in its OT. In the Greek NT there is no distinction from the common Lord, unfortunately, but He does plainly say He is our Lord. See also

This translation makes it clearer:

"Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

 

Because the NT quotes from Septuagint, and because the Septuagint generally omits Yahweh in favor of Lord, it can't be inferred that that any reference to Lord by NT figures is a reference to Yahweh.

 

Quote

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God/Elohim, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

That verse is quoting the OT usage of Elohim for the Son. So, again the Son is Elohim and YHWH. 

The complete theology of Jesus is hidden in His words - as He says He spoke only what the Father told Him to speak, and did not tell the Church exactly what was going to happen in the future. Rather, He was fairly mum other than to say that darkness was coming in which no man could work. While I agree that the early Church did not fully get it, to argue the early Church was simply Judaism is very presumptuous. Timothy speaks of ordaining bishops and deacons - a completely un-Jewish thing. The apostles end physical circumcision, and dietary laws. Observant Jews still follow these.

Timothy is quite possibly written quite late (even as late as the 2nd century), and almost certainly not by Paul.

The religion of Jesus was quite simply Judaism, not Christianity. The religion of Jesus' disciples after Jesus' death continued to be Judaism for a time. The evolution away from Judaism happened over a number of decades. Even in the 8th and 9th centuries there was controversy over who was supposed to keep the law of Moses (all followers of the way vs everyone except gentiles vs no one). The status of Jesus as a divine being was continuing to evolve as well.

 

Quote

The earliest patristic authors were anything but Jewish. 

They weren't very early, however.

 

Quote

I also agree that the Latter Day Saint idea of the Godhead is somewhat similar to the Trinitarian one, but being without the doctrinal errors of its essentially unbegotten Son, and the proscription of being heretical without accepting its dictates, we are much closer to how Yeshua left the Church - to figure Him out for ourselves. In this the LDS idea of the Godhead is on point rather than attempting to force all followers to accept its dictates, although it seems in recent decades there is less freedom to believe according to one's conscience due to cultural pressures. 

The LDS idea of the Godhead conforms to scripture for the reasons given above. Yeshua is not just another prophet, but He is a humble servant of the Father - much like He asks us to be.

From the standard of the theology of Jesus, the Godhead is quite heretical. For Jesus, the Father was the only God.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Gray

[Anakin7]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

Good late afternoon all. I would be very remiss if I didn't make a comment about my activities of the last 48 hours, besides being on this board, that is! We have a wonderful group of LDS-Christian eye doctors (surgeons, ophthalmologists, optometrists, and nurses) here in our area, ministering to the physical needs of the older and poorer folks here. I chatted with some of them at church on Sunday. They then came to our home as a group on Sunday afternoon and spent several hours with my wife and me. We mostly chatted about the Mennonites of our area and the similarities and differences between Mormons and Mennonites, and yes, other Protestants.  They are a Godly, sincere and wonderful group. No one could sit there, listen to them and not believe they are Christians. Getting to know folks from the "other side" is the way to break down barriers. I know of no better way. We then re-connected with them today and watched them work with the folks, even as they operated. It was a joy and a delight and touched our hearts. A member of our ward has a ministry to disabled children in our area. He coordinated their work and invited us to meet with them again today. Why would an LDS leader in our area, former bishop and stake president ask two non-LDS Christians to join a group of LDS volunteer eye specialists and spend so much time together? We spent hours with them. It was a joy! We had lunch and prayed together and all of a sudden we weren't Saints and Gentiles, we weren't those with authority and those without, we weren't those with a true priesthood and those with a fraudulent one; we weren't heterodox and orthodox; we weren't those with wrong beliefs and those with right beliefs; we weren't even two non-creedal groups sharing with each other. So what were we? We were a group of Christian brothers and sisters (not in the pre-mortal spirit sense) but in the "we share a common savior, a common commitment to mission and have a common love for our Heavenly Father and a burden for those who are suffering" sense. It was wonderful. We shared a sense of the Holy Spirit in our midst. I know I can't speak for them; but I can certainly tell you how it seemed to me. I came home on a high. I turned on the computer, stared at probably 20 messages in this thread and dug in. Within a few messages I was brought down to earth.

So here I sit a bit saddened. I offered my perspective and beliefs about my own people (Protestants and evangelicals) and I find myself facing a mob. I am tired of parsing my words so as not to hurt anyone's feelings or offend anyone on this board. I didn't try and tell you what LDS Christians think; I offered you what I know people of my own faith think. And guess what, from the responses it appears I offended you anyway! Why would you want to win a debate on what Protestants and evangelicals believe about creeds, creedalism, and especially about Mormons? For the life of me I can't figure that out. Why do you need to believe what you believe about creeds and Protestants and their perspectives of Mormons? Why do you need to make so much about creeds and creedalism? It must be a need because you have worked very hard at convincing me I am wrong about what I know I am right about? It is beyond me. I promise you I read every single website whose link you shared with me. Of the nine of them only one represented a real live Protestant group; not an individual's ideas. None of them said anywhere in their text that those who don't believe in creeds are not Christian. And the one site that represented a real live group, the Missouri Synod Lutherans used one example from the Nicene Creed and then went on to four or five other examples from other sources. While I appreciated the links and the sites, what I think you did was "eisegete" them not "exegete" them. You built your own meaning "into" them to validate your point and didn't take from their verbiage and draw conclusions "from" them.

I think it is so vitally important that our two sides understand each other and what the other really believes. It is so important that we get it right. Well, I think that because I believe that it makes God cry when his children bicker and say horrible things about each other. I think God is not easily offended, but I believe because of His big heart for all his children I believe He is easily saddened. I have saddened Him in my overall time on this board and I think some of the things some of you have said to and about me have saddened him. I am almost ready to come to the conclusion that you simply don't want to be part of the tree of Christianity so I just need to give up the mission and vision I have of bringing us together through self-understanding. Notice I didn't say through understanding the other. Until we examine ourselves we are nowhere. Certainly Mormonism (sorry, I am just not at a good place to parse words) plays its role in sharing responsibility for the divide that is unique between it and much of Christianity. Certainly Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and those who fall in-between those categories, like me, share responsibility for the divide. It is too wide a divide. It doesn't honor God, how we each pick at each other.

I've got a secret; my real name is Jedidiah Grant and I am calling for a reformation in Latter-day Saints attitudes, biases, and prejudices against the rest of the Christian world. No, I am Billy Sunday and I call for a revival in the Protestant community and a change in their attitudes, biases, and prejudices against the Latter-day Saint world. No, not really  . . . I am just me. Calling for us to be like Dr. Snow leading an old blind Mexican lady today down the hall to have her eyes opened and to receive sight, so she can have vision about what might be. No, not really . . . I am just Navidad . . . a guy named after the Spanish word for the entry of the Savior into the world to bring  light and life and sight to a lost world. I am really nobody. I just so want to see us come together as the family of God. . . not hung up on our authority, or our orthodoxy, or our pride in being the "other," or our pride in being the "one and only" or any of that. I am tired. I want to go back to where I was at lunch. Grasping hands with my brother and sister Christians grateful for opportunities to serve those who have truly lost their sight. . . not debating with either my Protestant or LDS brothers who just don't want to see.

    Navidad , Anakin7 here, I am also known as Kal-El Anakin Skywalker on other boards. I am a Disciple of The Vice Monarch, Lord of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus. I go by the idiom titles of Believer, Christian, Disciple, Seeker, Latter Day Saint, Saint, Mormon. I am a covert of a # of years now, Baptized Methodist as a baby, accepted Jesus as my personal savior as a young teenager in a local park and was baptized by a Fundamentalist Independent Baptist minister, became LDS in my latter teens. After receiving anti LDS materials after High School I became a prayer warrior and did research work at a local Methodist Seminary Library in response to the material that was given me and I still stand to this day LDS. I have family members, relatives, friends who are Roman Catholic Orthodox, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodox, Greek Catholic Orthodox, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Calvary Chapel, House Churches, Churches of Christ, Street Preachers, Agnostic Christians, Liberal Christians,Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Humanists. I have attended the afore mentioned Christian faiths Church services, Bible studies, church activities. I have been through a lot in my life, almost dying, a 3 of car accidents [ I am a brain injury survivor ] and I look at things differently now as I did when I was a little younger. I am no Professor, Scholar, Theologian, Brainiac. Just a simple child of God trying to get to my heavenly home. I tell you these things to let you know that even though we have not met that I love you. I have read your soul's posts and appreciate them. I have only met 1 or 2 mennonites in my life, not long enough to get to know them but the experience was good from what I remember. I would very much like to add you as one of my fellow non LDS Christian Brothers in Christ Jesus and friends. Thank you for being here on this board to share. Maybe we can meet someday. May True Grace abound in you soul and with those you Love in your heart and mind.

The Atonement It is the Central doctrine

Washing My garment in His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

"To sum up, there is little or nothing in pre-Christian Judaism to prepare for the sort of identification between Jesus and the Spirit which Paul and John seem to have envisaged, and nothing to provoke the idea of an incarnation of the Spirit in or as a man. The idea of God's Spirit as a power and presence (i.e. God's) which can be experienced in this world - that thought is well established. The idea of this divine power inspiring, transforming a man, and the hope for such experiences again in the coming age - that too. But of the Spirit as an entity in any sense independent of God, of Spirit as a divine hypostasis, there is nothing."

 Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry Into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation Paperback – 1996 by James D. G. Dunn

i don't believe in the incarnation, so that means nothing to me. He is more retorting orthodox Christianity. Yeshua had a body for His Spirit - just like the Father does. See Ether. There is virtually nothing in the Hebrew canon about a Holy Spirit. Angels sometimes appeared in solid form. However, Yeshua Himself taught about the Holy Spirit. To the extent He is teaching something new, it must be accepted unless rejected outright. So to that extent it was definitely not Judaism rehashed.

Quote

This translation makes it clearer:

"Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

Because the NT quotes from Septuagint, and because the Septuagint generally omits Yahweh in favor of Lord, it can't be inferred that that any reference to Lord by NT figures is a reference to Yahweh.

My first guess is that translation is from the Septuagint. I believe the Septuagint is a victim of Jewish prejudices. As you point out it dropped the name of YHWH. That is just one example. I don't believe the Hebrew Tanakh lends to that translation. 

Quote

Timothy is quite possibly written quite late (even as late as the 2nd century), and almost certainly not by Paul.

The religion of Jesus was quite simply Judaism, not Christianity. The religion of Jesus' disciples after Jesus' death continued to be Judaism for a time. The evolution away from Judaism happened over a number of decades. Even in the 8th and 9th centuries there was controversy over who was supposed to keep the law of Moses (all followers of the way vs everyone except gentiles vs no one). The status of Jesus as a divine being was continuing to evolve as well.

I know. You reject all evidence which does not conform to your pet theory. I accept the authority of Timothy. It contains accurate prophecy which marks it as a genuine work of Paul. I can see why some present orthodox might have issues with it though since it essentially mandates marriage for bishops -  something seen by them as un-Pauline. 

[Jane_Doe]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Powerful post. You are right in everything you said. I am so sorry you are treated as you are, especially by family. You endure much for your faith. You have never heard from my keyboard that Saints are not Christians. I defend the reality and integrity of your faith everywhere I go. I don't just study it, I see it.  the relationship and lack thereof between Mormons and other Christians is very complex. If, as Jarman says, you all simply don't want to sit at the lunch table with other Chrustians, then I will give it up. I have made a mistake. I underestimated the strength of your (collective) need to cling to your beliefs about other Christians. it seems like I am banging my head against the wall in both sides. I dream of a day when both sides agree to stop trying to convert each other. That, I believe would warm God's heart and honor the sacrifice of his Son.

if I came in this forum like some do, loaded to convert you, I can see why, as someone said yesterday, I am now up against the entire forum for no other reason than I am trying to help you better understand the other. But you push me away saying, "No thank you, I have my own experiences with them. That is all I need to know, that is my truth" I wasn't ready for that. I have long drives today through lots of empty land. I will think about all this and pray for guidance. I must certainly change my talks. Thank you for the strength of your faith in the savior. I know He will honor that.

Thank you for your charitable post.  Though I think I’m not properly conveying part of my point-- my apologies for that.  I let passion neglect part of my background explanation.

Earlier you talked about the base level of your identification being a Christian, and then the second level being Mennonite/Evangelical.  I like this paradigm and use it myself: I’m an LDS Christian, my husband is an Evangelical Christian, my friend a Catholic Christian etc.  All a base level of Christian, then some a second level of specificity.   Base belief in Christ being the savior, and then second level of specificity about baptism/sola-scriptura/authority/ etc. 

Your dream seems to be focused on the second tier: everyone acknowledge all beliefs as equally valid and people stop trying to convert each other.   Hence it bothers you that LDS do not see all second tiers as equally valid.

My dream is about the more basic first tier: simply acknowledging and respecting each other as Christians.  I don’t wish for people to stop being passionate about the second tier differences or to stop trying to share their views with others— respectfully, of course.  Mutual understanding and respecting each other is super important to me.    Hence it bothers me when folks don't respect and don't acknowledge other's relationship with Christ (like the examples I shared earlier), but it doesn't remotely bother me that other people have different views on second tier stuff. 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Navidad, I appreciate so much the strength of your convictions, and the desire to invite LDS Christians to the "cool kids table" so to speak. Now, I know to you that there is no cool kids table, and it hurts you to see us debate about that, but I hope that you acknowledge that your hurt is the very hurt we feel from those whom you call your Christian brothers. We don't trust your Christian brothers because at least at a subliminal level our wounds still hurt. So, over the course of our 180 year history, we were content to sit at our own table, and invite others to it. So rather than insisting on being at the Christian table we became content to sit at the Mormon table, and be down-trodden and outcast Christians. 

You and I disagree on this.

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

The reason you hurt is because we hurt. We cannot change the attitudes of other Christians. You wish us to apparently downgrade our rhetoric so to speak. You feel it stops us from being accepted as Christians. What we keep telling you is that it is not what prevents us from being accepted as Christians. We know. Many of us have lived it daily. 

Now this we agree upon.  

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 In all frankness downplaying our beliefs about priesthood authority is not going to change that Navidad. Rather than downplaying our beliefs about the Father, I believe it has been given as our Christian duty to teach the truth about Christ's own resurrection in physical bodily form, and his inheritance of the title of our Everlasting Father. I personally believe the Father is not pleased with any attempt to downplay this truth - it has been given to us as part of our charge as the restored gospel. And He shall rise at His appointed time - at the great day of YHWH spoken of by all the holy prophets which is nigh upon us - with a mighty force to defend Himself and His Son against all who will rebuke Him. But for the immediate future we still exercise the patience of the saints with calm resoluteness, and continue to invite others to the table of the down-trodden Christians with the words of our Savior in our ears that "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." Bless you Navidad.

This I also agree upon: downplaying truth is never good, and frankly it's not LDS beliefs in authority that get us branded as "nonChristians".

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

it seems like I am banging my head against the wall in both sides. I dream of a day when both sides agree to stop trying to convert each other. That, I believe would warm God's heart and honor the sacrifice of his Son.

It seems that this is getting to the core of the issue.  You view conversion attempts as a matter of disrespect, while we view them as an act of pure charity and respect for those we serve.  The thing that you have to accept is that we really, really believe what we teach - to the very core of our souls.  We believe that we are bringing the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to God's children throughout the world.  We believe that there is no substitute for what we are offering. 

This is a work of love.  If anybody feels disrespected by our efforts, they do not understand our core beliefs and motivations.  

There is no stopping this work Navidad, I would suggest for the sake of your head being overtly banged, that you let us be what we are.

Quote

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”

Joseph Smith

Quote

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:39)

There is no stopping it. The work will continue.  That is a good thing.  This is His work after all, we are simply tools in His hands.  That is how we perceive this work.  Take it or leave it, but I hope that you would respect our religion enough to not try and change it, to dilute it into something it is not.  We believe in the great apostasy and the restoration.  We believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ REALLY did appear to Joseph Smith and restore all the keys and authority to administer the ordinances of salvation. We cannot pretend like that didn't happen.  That is asking too much from us.        

Edited October 18, 2018 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Thank you for your charitable post.  Though I think I’m not properly conveying part of my point-- my apologies for that.  I let passion neglect part of my background explanation.

Earlier you talked about the base level of your identification being a Christian, and then the second level being Mennonite/Evangelical.  I like this paradigm and use it myself: I’m an LDS Christian, my husband is an Evangelical Christian, my friend a Catholic Christian etc.  All a base level of Christian, then some a second level of specificity.   Base belief in Christ being the savior, and then second level of specificity about baptism/sola-scriptura/authority/ etc. 

Your dream seems to be focused on the second tier: everyone acknowledge all beliefs as equally valid and people stop trying to convert each other.   Hence it bothers you that LDS do not see all second tiers as equally valid.

My dream is about the more basic first tier: simply acknowledging and respecting each other as Christians.  I don’t wish for people to stop being passionate about the second tier differences or to stop trying to share their views with others— respectfully, of course.  Mutual understanding and respecting each other is super important to me.    Hence it bothers me when folks don't respect and don't acknowledge other's relationship with Christ (like the examples I shared earlier), but it doesn't remotely bother me that other people have different views on second tier stuff. 

Yes, that is it.  We believe that the second tier matters to God.  Navidad doesn’t.  That is the difference.

[Jane_Doe]

40 minutes ago, pogi said:

It seems that this is getting to the core of the issue.  You view conversion attempts as a matter of disrespect, while we view them as an act of pure charity and respect for those we serve.  The thing that you have to accept is that we really, really believe what we teach - to the very core of our souls.  We believe that we are bringing the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to God's children throughout the world.  We believe that there is no substitute for what we are offering.         

A person can be respectful while sharing their beliefs with another, even the sharing is motivated by conversion hopes.

What's never respectful is not listening to the other person, misrepresenting things, etc.

 

I'm actually flattered when a non-LDS person tries to respectfully convert me.  Respecting includes of course acknowledging my love of Christ (the first tier) so the conversation is focused on the second tier.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[MiserereNobis]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm actually flattered when a non-LDS person tries to respectfully convert me.  Respecting includes of course acknowledging my love of Christ (the first tier) so the conversation is focused on the second tier.

I love that you love Christ. Now, bring all the good you have and let the Catholic Church add to it  

[LittleNipper]

20 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Except that you ARE acknowledged as a Christian by LDS.  

In Navidad's case: help you understand that baptismal authority and being a Christian are in LDS eyes two different things, and he is indeed a welcomed Christian?  For example, my daughter is unbaptized and my husband an Evangelical-- both are welcomed and acknowledged as being Christian.  True, they not yet validly baptized, but they have faith in God and relationship with Him-- they are Christians.  

I'm sorry, but I got to be blunt here:

Do you have family members who tell you that you're going to burn in Hell for eternity?  That you are a servant of Satan for teaching your children to read the Bible?  Who forbid you from talking about Christ in their presence?  Who spout bald face lies about what you believe to your face with closed ears?  Who vehemently oppose ever talking to you about faith, let alone attending services with you?  And instead they come to your house they insist you pretend to not believe your faith and instead attend some random church they pick out on Sunday?   Relatives that pin-down your spouse and order them to "make you a Christian"?

No.  Instead you are acknowledged as a Christian, welcomed by your LDS ward, invited to speak from the pulpit, respected, acknowledged as an expert on many subjects, asked join in religious discussions, attend all sorts of activities, have people minster you at home, have many good friends.  

 

Frankly, that's not apples and apples.  I would LOVE to receive the treatment you are being subjected to.   I don't care if someone disagrees on matters of authority, in fact I think admire the views many non-LDS other folks have on authority.  What I'm asking for is to have my very love of Christ-- the center piece of who I am-- to even be acknowledged.  And a lot of the time I don't get that, even from family.  Navidad, I acknowledge that you hurt, but this is not an apples-to-apples case.

I must be missing something here; however, I have NEVER ever heard any CHRISTIAN that I know of tell a person or anyone that they are going to hell for encouraging their children or anyone to read the Bible. No one can make anyone a "CHRISTIAN". And frankly, I've heard far more people say that no one goes to hell. I'd have to ask you if you have ever been turned away from a Christian church because they said that only people in "good standing" may enter? Could an evangelical non-LDS ever expect to officiate at a LDS wedding? I'm very sorry if those you are related to were unkind.

Edited October 19, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

26 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I must be missing something here; however, I have NEVER ever heard any CHRISTIAN that I know of tell a person or anyone that they are going to hell for encouraging their children or anyone to read the Bible. 

Great for you.  I hear it regularly certain family members whenever they visit or it's mentioned that I read the Bible with my daughter.  

26 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

No one can make anyone a "CHRISTIAN". 

I 100% agree.  Still, my husband gets that "you need to make your wife a Christian!" lecture every time we see these relatives. 

26 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I'd have to ask you if you have ever been turned away from a Christian church because they said that only people in "good standing" may enter? 

I have indeed been turned away from Christian establishments for not being a "Christian" myself.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I love that you love Christ. Now, bring all the good you have and let the Catholic Church add to it  

I was actually thinking of you when I wrote that comment .  I'm not Catholic and have major disagreements there, but I am actually very flattered by your wanting to share, @MiserereNobis.  And your presence here is almost always very Christ-like.  I do very much enjoy chatting with you.

[JarMan]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, that is it.  We believe that the second tier matters to God.  Navidad doesn’t.  That is the difference.

I’m quite heterodox on this issue and will likely separate myself from most of my fellow Mormons on this. I’ve come to believe it’s unlikely God cares about either tier. It seems very unlikely to me that the path to God is through LDS ordinances. It seems a little more likely the path is through faith in Christ, but still very unlikely. (Honestly it seems more likely to me we all live in a simulation.) I understand the angst about a system that’s exclusive and it makes sense that the more exclusive the system the more angst people will have with it. But the vast majority of religions throughout human history are exclusive. This is what makes any given religion so unlikely to be the “right” one. So my answer is to do the best I can with what I have. And what I have is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  

[Okrahomer]

15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I have indeed been turned away from Christian establishments for not being a "Christian" myself.

You’re in good company:

“A fine story this morning in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette by Charlie Frago (sorry, pay wall) about a four-year-old Mormon child denied admission to the private Little Rock Christian Academy because of his religion. Mormon doctrine doesn't align with doctrine of the school, founded by the Bible Church. The parents promised their four-year-old wouldn't proselytize but that didn't bring down the barrier.  Carla Emanuel, a school board member, put it rather pungently. She said it was "sneaky" for kids to come in at early ages when children are susceptible to influence.”

[pogi]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I love that you love Christ. Now, bring all the good you have and let the Catholic Church add to it  

Well played - using our own words against us!

Quote

“Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work. That is the essence of our missionary service” (President Hinckley, meeting, Nairobi, Kenya, 17 Feb. 1998).

While Latter-day Saints encourage others to be lifted by what we have to offer, we are frequently humbled and edified by light of truth offered by our Christian neighbors.  I, for one, frequently feast on the words of my Catholic brothers.  Your traditions and teachings of contemplative prayer have certainly brought me closer to Christ and taught me to commune with Him in ways that I didn't know possible.  So, thanks for the offer to add to what we have.  I accepted the offer, I have already done so, and will continue to do so. 

Quote

It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, … to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion (DBY, 248).

 

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I’m quite heterodox on this issue and will likely separate myself from most of my fellow Mormons on this. I’ve come to believe it’s unlikely God cares about either tier. It seems very unlikely to me that the path to God is through LDS ordinances. It seems a little more likely the path is through faith in Christ, but still very unlikely. (Honestly it seems more likely to me we all live in a simulation.) I understand the angst about a system that’s exclusive and it makes sense that the more exclusive the system the more angst people will have with it. But the vast majority of religions throughout human history are exclusive. This is what makes any given religion so unlikely to be the “right” one. So my answer is to do the best I can with what I have. And what I have is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  

Are you suggesting that universalists are most likely right?  Because they are the only non-exclusionists.  I personally don't view the angst of others as an indicator that a Church is "unlikely to be the right one".  Christ sure didn't.  Christ himself seemed to be an exclusionist to both Christians and non-Christians.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’…Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me...".  

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:32-34).  

If you believe these words, then you believe that Christ's kingdom is exclusive. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by pogi

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Great for you.  I hear it regularly certain family members whenever they visit or it's mentioned that I read the Bible with my daughter.  

I 100% agree.  Still, my husband gets that "you need to make your wife a Christian!" lecture every time we see these relatives. 

I have indeed been turned away from Christian establishments for not being a "Christian" myself. What sort of "Christian" establishments?

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Great for you.  I hear it regularly certain family members whenever they visit or it's mentioned that I read the Bible with my daughter.  

I 100% agree.  Still, my husband gets that "you need to make your wife a Christian!" lecture every time we see these relatives. 

I have indeed been turned away from Christian establishments for not being a "Christian" myself.

 

They obviously are not helping  --- perhaps even immature christians  -- if Christian at all. And what sort of "Christian" establishments were you turned away from? I mean, how would they in fact realize that you were not "Christian"? It isn't like the question arises at the door of any church I ever attended...  "Excuse me sir, I noticed that you are caring a Bible -- are you a CHRISTIAN  or some CULT member?" 

Now , this is a warning to all that there are reasons the Bible says not to be unequally yoked. It is difficult if you became a LDS after the fact. However,  if you were one already and then married a "Christian" ----  that is really something I would never encourage. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

You’re in good company:

“A fine story this morning in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette by Charlie Frago (sorry, pay wall) about a four-year-old Mormon child denied admission to the private Little Rock Christian Academy because of his religion. Mormon doctrine doesn't align with doctrine of the school, founded by the Bible Church. The parents promised their four-year-old wouldn't proselytize but that didn't bring down the barrier.  Carla Emanuel, a school board member, put it rather pungently. She said it was "sneaky" for kids to come in at early ages when children are susceptible to influence.”

I feel that this Little Rock Christian Academy could have been a wonderful witness to both that child and those parents. I'm afraid that they lost a very good opportunity to proselytize with the blessing of both the parents and using their tuition fee besides! My wife teaches at a Christian school and the parents are told (also sign enrollment papers) up front that the school will promote both the LORD JESUS CHRIST and GOD's HOLY BIBLE. The children at such an early age very likely have not made any determination as to what they specifically believe. And the parents cannot have any say as to what the school scripturally teaches. The school my wife teaches at has had a few Hindi children attend (People from India being prevalent). Such were none the less fully introduced to the CHRIST of the BIBLE as an important part of the learning process. And I might add that some of the supposed "christian" families were far more "troublesome" than those that are nominally "Christian" if that..

Edited October 19, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that universalists are most likely right?  Because they are the only non-exclusionists.  I personally don't view the angst of others as an indicator that a Church is "unlikely to be the right one".  Christ sure didn't.  Christ himself seemed to be an exclusionist to both Christians and non-Christians.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’…Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me...".  

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:32-34).  

If you believe these words, then you believe that Christ's kingdom is exclusive. 

And what exactly does the KING say to the goats on HIS left? 

[pogi]

10 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And what exactly does the KING say to the goats on HIS left? 

In this particular passage he is explaining that works of love/service/ministering to our fellow men is one of the exclusive conditions for entry into the kingdom. 

"Inasmuch as much as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not unto me..."

It is not enough to call him Lord - to be Christian - to be baptized, etc.  It is not enough to simply say that we love God, we have to show that we love Him through our works of love and service...

But let's not derail and turn this into a debate about the belief vs works.  The point is that the kingdom of heaven is exclusionary.  I think we can agree on that point at least.

Edited October 19, 2018 by pogi

[JarMan]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that universalists are most likely right?  Because they are the only non-exclusionists.  I personally don't view the angst of others as an indicator that a Church is "unlikely to be the right one".  Christ sure didn't.  Christ himself seemed to be an exclusionist to both Christians and non-Christians.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’…Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me...".  

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:32-34).  

If you believe these words, then you believe that Christ's kingdom is exclusive. 

I kind of see religion like a dart board. Put a tiny dot on the dart board for every religion that’s ever existed throughout the world. When we are born it’s like throwing a dart. The dot that’s hit is the religion we’re born into. 

I see the role of the religious person to ”lift where he stands” so to speak. Take all the good you can from your church and try to purge the things that aren’t so good. Theological debates with other people don’t seem to accomplish much. Theological discussions, though, can be helpful. At times this thread has been a helpful discussion. At other times it’s veered into debate or preachiness.