Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 6, 2018 Posted September 6, 2018 There is a thread currently running, which says there is another, but I did not see it. The thread I read and commented on addresses, past and current teachings concerning the "Cross". So, since we are a Faith whose members, all the way back to the beginning, is a Faith where (in the beginning) were all converts from other Christian Faiths. Later on from both Jewish and Muslim Faiths. But 99.9%, I guess, all new members still come from other Christian Faiths. Because of this, these converts were raised with a love for the Cross, as it most likely adorned some parts of the Churches, and both their Pastors and Parents probably instilled a love for the Cross in them. Just as the Apostle Paul and others have expressed the same love and reverence for the Cross as well, as the Apostle Paul said, "we worship at the Cross", along with so many other quotes. Just this Monday, my wife came home with a Cross about a foot high given to her, she accepted it not wishing to be rude. When she arrive home, she had one of my older granddaughters with her. We also have grandchildren over every weekend, as they all fight to see who gets to stay with Nanny and Papa. My granddaughter thought it was funny, I told her there is nothing funny about the Cross, she replied, "the Cross is not what I found amusing, it was a comment she made about how without, we have no protection". She went on to say, "Nanny told her that our protection comes through our Faith in Jesus Christ". So, I was proud of both my girls that day, my granddaughter, and my wife, after of course I made sure my granddaughter did not laugh at the woman handing out the crosses. My issues with the Cross, are only "how" it is used, and "how often", it is misused. When I purchased my home, it had a marble Cross in the yard, it is not very tall however. This was back in the day when I would frequent anti-Mormon websites, where often people would speak of how we, "hate the Cross". In one such thread, I pointed out that my new home had a Cross in the yard when I bought it. Then came the reply, "how quickly did you tear it down"? Of course I replied, "why would I", you can only imagine the comments that followed. About a month OT two after bidding these sites farewell, maybe two comments in four years since, my neighbor came over to tell us she was moving. Knowing she had lived there for a long time, and knowing she was very good friends with the previous owner, I had to ask. "Miss Sally, why is that cross so little, and why is it tucked away where no one can see it but ourselves"? Her reply summed up some of the things that concern me about how the cross is misused. She replied, "Oh, that is where Jesse is buried", I thought at first about how it is illegal in Georgia to bury persons of private property. So, I asked out of of concern, "who is Jesse"? She said without hesitation, "oh, Jesse was her dog". This is just one of many things where I feel that the very serious, "Cross of Christ" is cheapened by so many. In so many cases it has become little more than costume jewelry, and tattoos, by rap artists, gang members, and at alarming rates an outward symbol of those who have no Faith, or affiliation. What was once exalted, has been made low. It is these changing and social morays, that has given rise to the Church's current position, I believe. I have read recently two books on the topic, by LDS authors, who make clear, that in our early history, the Cross was held in high reverence by many of the early Saints. So to the question, is it the world's "use or misuse" of the Cross, that has given rise to our attitudes concerning it, or, are we dismissive of it? 3
Bernard Gui Posted September 6, 2018 Posted September 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: There is a thread currently running, which says there is another, but I did not see it. The thread I read and commented on addresses, past and current teachings concerning the "Cross". So, since we are a Faith whose members, all the way back to the beginning, is a Faith where (in the beginning) were all converts from other Christian Faiths. Later on from both Jewish and Muslim Faiths. But 99.9%, I guess, all new members still come from other Christian Faiths. Because of this, these converts were raised with a love for the Cross, as it most likely adorned some parts of the Churches, and both their Pastors and Parents probably instilled a love for the Cross in them. Just as the Apostle Paul and others have expressed the same love and reverence for the Cross as well, as the Apostle Paul said, "we worship at the Cross", along with so many other quotes. Just this Monday, my wife came home with a Cross about a foot high given to her, she accepted it not wishing to be rude. When she arrive home, she had one of my older granddaughters with her. We also have grandchildren over every weekend, as they all fight to see who gets to stay with Nanny and Papa. My granddaughter thought it was funny, I told her there is nothing funny about the Cross, she replied, "the Cross is not what I found amusing, it was a comment she made about how without, we have no protection". She went on to say, "Nanny told her that our protection comes through our Faith in Jesus Christ". So, I was proud of both my girls that day, my granddaughter, and my wife, after of course I made sure my granddaughter did not laugh at the woman handing out the crosses. My issues with the Cross, are only "how" it is used, and "how often", it is misused. When I purchased my home, it had a marble Cross in the yard, it is not very tall however. This was back in the day when I would frequent anti-Mormon websites, where often people would speak of how we, "hate the Cross". In one such thread, I pointed out that my new home had a Cross in the yard when I bought it. Then came the reply, "how quickly did you tear it down"? Of course I replied, "why would I", you can only imagine the comments that followed. About a month OT two after bidding these sites farewell, maybe two comments in four years since, my neighbor came over to tell us she was moving. Knowing she had lived there for a long time, and knowing she was very good friends with the previous owner, I had to ask. "Miss Sally, why is that cross so little, and why is it tucked away where no one can see it but ourselves"? Her reply summed up some of the things that concern me about how the cross is misused. She replied, "Oh, that is where Jesse is buried", I thought at first about how it is illegal in Georgia to bury persons of private property. So, I asked out of of concern, "who is Jesse"? She said without hesitation, "oh, Jesse was her dog". This is just one of many things where I feel that the very serious, "Cross of Christ" is cheapened by so many. In so many cases it has become little more than costume jewelry, and tattoos, by rap artists, gang members, and at alarming rates an outward symbol of those who have no Faith, or affiliation. What was once exalted, has been made low. It is these changing and social morays, that has given rise to the Church's current position, I believe. I have read recently two books on the topic, by LDS authors, who make clear, that in our early history, the Cross was held in high reverence by many of the early Saints. So to the question, is it the world's "use or misuse" of the Cross, that has given rise to our attitudes concerning it, or, are we dismissive of it? 2
Glenn101 Posted September 6, 2018 Posted September 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: This is just one of many things where I feel that the very serious, "Cross of Christ" is cheapened by so many. In so many cases it has become little more than costume jewelry, and tattoos, by rap artists, gang members, and at alarming rates an outward symbol of those who have no Faith, or affiliation. What was once exalted, has been made low. It is these changing and social morays, that has given rise to the Church's current position, I believe. I have read recently two books on the topic, by LDS authors, who make clear, that in our early history, the Cross was held in high reverence by many of the early Saints. So to the question, is it the world's "use or misuse" of the Cross, that has given rise to our attitudes concerning it, or, are we dismissive of it? I think it is a distraction more than anything else. When we start arguing about a cross, it seems that we lose sight of what the idea is supposed to be about. I personally do not have any hangups about how other people view the cross. That, to me, is between them and God. But that science bears out the fact that religious people benefit greatly from their faith is one of the things that was pointed out. Glenn Edited September 6, 2018 by Glenn101 Added another thought 2
Thinking Posted September 7, 2018 Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: This is just one of many things where I feel that the very serious, "Cross of Christ" is cheapened by so many. In so many cases it has become little more than costume jewelry, and tattoos, by rap artists, gang members, and at alarming rates an outward symbol of those who have no Faith, or affiliation. Too often we criticize those we don't understand because they have a perceived vice that we find unacceptable, so much so that we tend to judge the entire persona based on that one vice. If we dig a little deeper we might discover that we have some common ground. Quote Dr. Dre is one of the most successful rapper-turned-moguls in the game. His fortune sky-rocketed with the Beats headphones and this has allowed him to spread the wealth. Recently, Dre and Jimmy Iovine donated a combined $70 million ($35 million each) to the University of Southern California. The money went to help further the education of thousands of students in Los Angeles, as most of the funds went to creating a new degree at the university -- blending liberal arts, graphic and product design, business and technology. This became the largest gift by a black man to any college or university in the country. Dr. Dre has also helped over the years to make LA a safer city by donating to numerous charities to help inner-city youth. When Rappers Have Hearts Edited September 7, 2018 by Thinking 2
cinepro Posted September 7, 2018 Posted September 7, 2018 About 10 years ago, Michael Reed actually looked into why Mormons don't like the cross much. His research was interesting, as reported in this DN article: Quote The attitude of Mormons toward the cross has changed over the years. Members of the LDS Church did not accept the 19th-century Protestant prejudice against the cross. Over time, some embraced the cross as a symbol and others avoided its use. Some even used it as a way to denigrate the Catholic Church. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705328913/Mormons-and-the-cross.html
Guest Posted September 7, 2018 Posted September 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Thinking said: Too often we criticize those we don't understand because they have a perceived vice that we find unacceptable, so much so that we tend to judge the entire persona based on that one vice. If we dig a little deeper we might discover that we have some common ground. I don't do that, sorry if that is what you read that into my comments. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 On 9/6/2018 at 4:02 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: There is a thread currently running, which says there is another, but I did not see it. ................................. The other thread is http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70994-the-cross-and-religious-symbols/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1209851078 . We have discussed this matter on this board several times before.
Thinking Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I don't do that, sorry if that is what you read that into my comments. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
Yirgacheffe Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 On 9/6/2018 at 5:02 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: My granddaughter thought it was funny, I told her there is nothing funny about the Cross, she replied, "the Cross is not what I found amusing, it was a comment she made about how without, we have no protection". And somewhere else someone else's grandchild is laughing about garments and about how their faith is in Christ for protection. 2
Yirgacheffe Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 6 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I don't do that, sorry if that is what you read that into my comments. From my reading of your exchange that's just what you did.
Guest Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 14 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said: From my reading of your exchange that's just what you did. I was not denigrating the practices of believes, I was pointing out the persons who misuse the cross. In my opinion those who truly revere the cross, do not misuse in this ways I listed. Sorry, if you think I was speaking of those who put it on their places of worship, or wear it around their neck as a token of worship. Unless we disagree of the terns, "belief and reference".
Guest Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 14 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said: And somewhere else someone else's grandchild is laughing about garments and about how their faith is in Christ for protection. Wow, what a leap. And my granddaughter was not laughing "at" the cross. Also this site, does not allow for the discussion of Temple activities and garments as a rule. You might not like that, but "it is" am LDS website..
Guest Posted September 8, 2018 Posted September 8, 2018 22 hours ago, cinepro said: About 10 years ago, Michael Reed actually looked into why Mormons don't like the cross much. His research was interesting, as reported in this DN article: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705328913/Mormons-and-the-cross.html Yes, I have a signed copy of the book.
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