Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[Kenngo1969]

21 hours ago, Abulafia said:

 I'll ask the question again..the church recognises liability only when it can be proven that it acted negligently.

Two things: (1) You wouldn't necessarily know about any cases which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has offered settlements without going to trial because those settlements are confidential.  The confidentiality you rail against works both ways: You don't necessarily know about settlements because their terms usually are confidential (and for all you know, the Church of Jesus Christ may have offered to settle a good number of cases simply as a gesture of good will, even when its chances of prevailing at trial are good); and (2) Yes, a finding or admission of liability does require an accompanying finding or admission of negligence, which is the very bedrock principle upon which tort law in the entire common law world is built.  You've said, repeatedly, how much you don't like that: Fine.  Good luck overturning a thousand years of precedent. (And it's not as though the Church of Jesus Christ is unique among organizations, or even among churches, in defending itself [often vigorously, if warranted and necessary] against accusations that it has been negligent in some way.  One might be prone to wonder how much of an equal opportunity critic you are in demanding that the tort system of the entire common-law world be turned on its head.)   

Edited September 25, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Two things: (1) You wouldn't necessarily know about any cases which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has offered settlements without going to trial because those settlements are confidential.  The confidentiality you rail against works both ways: You don't necessarily know about settlements because their terms usually are confidential (and for all you know, the Church of Jesus Christ may have offered to settle a good number of cases simply as a gesture of good will, even when its chances of prevailing at trial are good); and (2) Yes, a finding or admission of liability does require an accompanying finding or admission of negligence, which is the very bedrock principle upon which tort law in the entire common law world is built.  You've said, repeatedly, how much you don't like that: Fine.  Good luck overturning a thousand years of precedent. (And it's not as though the Church of Jesus Christ is unique among organizations, or even among churches, in defending itself [often vigorously, if warranted and necessary] against accusations that it has been negligent in some way.  One might be prone to wonder how much of an equal opportunity critic you are in demanding that the tort system of the entire common-law world be turned on its head.)   

What on earth are you talking about.

I asked a simple question.

Has the church ever acknowledged liability in any legal case. As I understand it, and even in the case of Frank Curtis, the church settled whilst not admitting liability.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Please quote me verbatim, then.

Thanks,

-Smac

I shan't be posting here for much longer Smac. This venue is a shadow of its former self. It seems like an echo chamber nowadays. 

[Danzo]

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

What on earth are you talking about.

I asked a simple question.

Has the church ever acknowledged liability in any legal case. As I understand it, and even in the case of Frank Curtis, the church settled whilst not admitting liability.

Why would there be any liability in the Curtis Case?

That was the mother's fault.

 

[Abulafia]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Why would there be any liability in the Curtis Case?

That was the mother's fault.

 

Have you read *The Sins of Brother Curtis*?

[Abulafia]

"Most of the bishops who were deposed stated that they believed they should, and would, report an incident of child sexual abuse if they were able to do so without breaking the responsibility of confidentiality. Yet none of them had reported Frank Curtis despite how they had learned of his abuse…" - The Sins of Brother Curtis  by Lisa Davis

[Kenngo1969]

19 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Have you read *The Sins of Brother Curtis*?

If someone wants to present a balanced, even-handed, fair treatment to me of events or situations such as those described in the book, I'll be happy to consider it.  I might even conclude that such an author has a point, and that there are things that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can do (both institutionally in a general sense and in specific cases) to improve response to such situations or to prevent them.  Or, at least I might conclude that a reasonable observer could reach conclusions not unlike those reached by sincere, well-intentioned critics of the Church of Jesus Christ, of its leaders, and of its policies, even if I disagree with those conclusions.  Here, though, it seems clear simply from reading the descriptions of the book, let alone the book itself, that the author is more interested in sales, sensationalism, and axe-grinding than she is in anything else.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Abulafia]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If someone wants to present a balanced, even-handed, fair treatment to me of events or situations such as those described in the book, I'll be happy to consider it.  I might even conclude that such an author has a point, and that there are things that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can do (both institutionally in a general sense and in specific cases) to improve response to such situations or to prevent them.  Or, at least I might conclude that a reasonable observer could reach conclusions not unlike those reached by sincere, well-intentioned critics of the Church of Jesus Christ, of its leaders, and of its policies.  Here, though, it seems clear simply from reading the descriptions of the book, let alone the book itself, that the author is more interested in sales, sensationalism, and axe-grinding than he is in anything else.

It's a *she*. It's a troubling read but not written by a member. Tim Kosnoff is also not a member. 

 

http://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/authors/Lisa-Davis/47568752

Edited September 25, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

"Lisa Davis is a seasoned investigative reporter who has worked as a senior writer at Village Voice Media publications in San Francisco (SF Weekly) and Phoenix, AZ. (New Times), and has written for various publications including The Arizona Republic, Phoenix  Gazette, Business Journal and Slate online magazine. She holds an MFA in creative nonfiction from Goucher College in Baltimore and a Bachelor of Arts degree in journalism and urban studies from San Francisco State University.  "

[Kenngo1969]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

It's a *she*. It's a troubling read but not written by a member. Tim Kosnoff is also not a member. 

I don't think I ever expressed a preference for reading books by members of the Church of Jesus Christ over reading those by non-members.  I believe my comment has more to do with whether the treatment of events is fair and balanced than it does to do with whether the author(s) is or are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or not (or with the authors' gender).

[Kenngo1969]

52 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

What on earth are you talking about. ...

Principles of negligence and liability which prevail in most, if not all, of the common-law world.  You're welcome.  Thanks for asking.  Anything else?  

[Abulafia]

Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think I ever expressed a preference for reading books by members of the Church of Jesus Christ over reading those by non-members.  I believe my comment has more to do with whether the treatment of events is fair and balanced than it does to do with whether the author(s) is or are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or not (or with the authors' gender).

Ah... well, she doesn't seem to have an *axe to grind*.  It's a heavy read Kengo, but not unbalanced. A faithful overview of the events.

[Kenngo1969]

6 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Ah... well, she doesn't seem to have an *axe to grind*.  It's a heavy read Kengo, but not unbalanced. A faithful overview of the events.

I'll grant you that Ms. Davis had nothing to do with writing promotional material that appears on Amazon to hype the book.  That said, I wonder if she has any problem with the following?

Quote

When Seattle attorney Tim Kosnoff agreed to listen to an eighteen-year-old man who claimed to have been molested by his Mormon Sunday school teacher, he had no idea he was embarking on a quest for justice on behalf of multiple victims or that the battle would consume years of his life and pit him against the vast, powerful, and unrepentant Mormon church itself.

Right.  The Church of Jesus Christ is "vast, powerful, and unrepentant," but Ms. Davis is simply a reasonable author who is attempting to tell an evenhanded (but undeniably tragic) story.  If she wants to enlist members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in her cause (or even former members who have no particular axe to grind against the Church) she is (or at least, the book's promoters are) going about it in exactly the wrong way.

[Abulafia]

Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

I'll grant you that Ms. Davis had nothing to do with writing promotional material that appears on Amazon to hype the book.  That said, I wonder if she has any problem with the following?

Right.  The Church of Jesus Christ is "vast, powerful, and unrepentant," but Ms. Davis is simply a reasonable author who is attempting to tell an evenhanded (but undeniably tragic) story.  If she wants to enlist members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in her cause (or even former members who have no particular axe to grind against the Church) she is (or at least, the book's promoters are) going about it in exactly the wrong way.

Read the book, Kengo and then you will at least understand why that opinion was formed. 

[Danzo]

46 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Have you read *The Sins of Brother Curtis*?

I am familiar with the case.

 

 

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Read the book, Kengo and then you will at least understand why that opinion was formed. 

Why don't you just give the facts that your opinion is based on, or just stop saying things that you have no facts to support.

[Danzo]

25 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

"Lisa Davis is a seasoned investigative reporter who has worked as a senior writer at Village Voice Media publications in San Francisco (SF Weekly) and Phoenix, AZ. (New Times), and has written for various publications including The Arizona Republic, Phoenix  Gazette, Business Journal and Slate online magazine. She holds an MFA in creative nonfiction from Goucher College in Baltimore and a Bachelor of Arts degree in journalism and urban studies from San Francisco State University.  "

The underlined part explains it all.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Ah... well, she doesn't seem to have an *axe to grind*.  It's a heavy read Kengo, but not unbalanced. A faithful overview of the events.

From one of the reviewers on Amazon:

Quote

At the outset of my review I must disclose that I am a life long active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, hence my interest in the book by Lisa Davis. I will begin by stating that it is well written and I was kept engaged by her description of the sparing between all the attorneys involved in the case. This was a horrible event that took place in the lives of these children by a very sick and deranged individual, Frank Curtis. However, the events of this book were very obviously told from one perspective, that of the prosecuting attorneys.

 

[Danzo]

26 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Ah... well, she doesn't seem to have an *axe to grind*.  It's a heavy read Kengo, but not unbalanced. A faithful overview of the events.

perhaps you can just stick with the facts of the case.

"The case is unusual not only because the church disclosed the amount of the settlement, in advance of news conferences by the plaintiffs' lawyers today, but also because it centers on alleged abuse by a man who held no ministerial or leadership role."

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/05/us/mormons-paying-3-million-to-settle-sex-abuse-case.html

[ALarson]

46 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Read the book, Kengo and then you will at least understand why that opinion was formed. 

I've read the book.  It's a difficult read and the events that took place are not a proud moment for the leaders involved, IMO.  It's a pretty horrific, true story of abuse at the hands of a member of the church. 

I do feel that things have improved greatly with how the leaders handle reported abuse now and I have hope it will continue to improve.  But, I believe there is no way anyone should be making less of what took place regarding that case (especially those who haven't even taken the time to read the book or research it). 

 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

I've read the book.  It's a difficult read and the events that took place are not a proud moment for the leaders involved, IMO.  It's a pretty horrific, true story of abuse at the hands of a member of the church. 

I do feel that things have improved greatly with how the leaders handle reported abuse now and I have hope it will continue to improve.  But, I believe there is no way anyone should be making less of what took place regarding that case (especially those who haven't even taken the time to read the book or research it). 

 

The case is public record.

no need to read a one sided book to get the facts of the case.

Who in their right mind lets an older adult sleep with their child?

 

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The case is public record.

no need to read a one sided book to get the facts of the case.

Who in their right mind lets an older adult sleep with their child?

 

 This man was accused by 21 different victims of sexually abusing them and he confessed to many of these crimes (to several Bishops over the years). 

You should know that this is not a case of just one young boy being abused because his Mother allowed the 87 year old man to share a bed with her son.  There were many, many other children involved whose Mothers did not allow that.

So please don't try to blame one Mother (who allowed the man to rent from her) for this man's choices over the years to abuse many children.

Edited September 25, 2018 by ALarson

[Abulafia]

46 minutes ago, Danzo said:

perhaps you can just stick with the facts of the case.

"The case is unusual not only because the church disclosed the amount of the settlement, in advance of news conferences by the plaintiffs' lawyers today, but also because it centers on alleged abuse by a man who held no ministerial or leadership role."

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/05/us/mormons-paying-3-million-to-settle-sex-abuse-case.html

That's not the point.  Bishop's knew.

[Danzo]

Just now, Abulafia said:

That's not the point.  Bishop's knew.

Facts please.  We all know your opinion.

[Abulafia]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I've read the book.  It's a difficult read and the events that took place are not a proud moment for the leaders involved, IMO.  It's a pretty horrific, true story of abuse at the hands of a member of the church. 

I do feel that things have improved greatly with how the leaders handle reported abuse now and I have hope it will continue to improve.  But, I believe there is no way anyone should be making less of what took place regarding that case (especially those who haven't even taken the time to read the book or research it). 

 

Exactly. Thankyou.