The Spirit Of Discernment

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I have no idea why you feel that way (being sincere here).

Black and white thinking = all or nothing thinking

I am not doing that at all nor is that the way I think about callings.  I believe that some callings given are inspired by God, of course.  But I'm not the one stating the extreme "All callings come from God"....that is you who stated that.  Whenever the human element enters into any decision, there are all different reasons why someone is chosen to serve in a position (as I've already posted twice).  I've had enough experiences in leadership callings to know this is just a fact.  Some callings turn out well and others not so great.  But I'm not going to blame or attribute that to God each and every time.

And now, I'm off of here for the evening....hope your's is great.

Which of your leadership callings came from God and which ones did not, regardless of how well they turned out or whether you blamed God for when they turned out not so great?

What do you mean by some of your leadership callings turn out well and others not so great?

[ALarson]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

What do you mean by some of your leadership callings turn out well and others not so great?

I wasn't referring to my own calling, I was referring to how I've seen the process work regarding coming up with a name and issuing a calling.  

[SJR3t2]

Alma 12:3 Now Zeezrom, seeing that thou hast been taken in thy lying and craftiness, for thou hast not lied unto men only but thou hast lied unto God; for behold, he knows all thy thoughts, AND THOU SEEST THAT THY THOUGHTS ARE MADE KNOWN UNTO US by his Spirit;
Alma 12:7 Now when Alma had spoken these words, Zeezrom began to tremble more exceedingly, for he was convinced more and more of the power of God; and he was also convinced that Alma and Amulek had a knowledge of him, for he was convinced that they knew the thoughts and intents of his heart; for power was given unto them that they might know of these things according to the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I wasn't referring to my own calling, I was referring to how I've seen the process work regarding coming up with a name and issuing a calling.  

That's OK, I'm asking about your calling. It's germane to the more salient aspects of my original post that you first responded to. I'm trying to flesh out some thoughts here through discussion.

Which of your leadership callings came from God and which ones did not?

Have some of your leadership callings turned out well and others not so great?

How one observes and interprets the process to be working for others may not accommodate a complete picture.

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said:

Alma 12:3 Now Zeezrom, seeing that thou hast been taken in thy lying and craftiness, for thou hast not lied unto men only but thou hast lied unto God; for behold, he knows all thy thoughts, AND THOU SEEST THAT THY THOUGHTS ARE MADE KNOWN UNTO US by his Spirit;
Alma 12:7 Now when Alma had spoken these words, Zeezrom began to tremble more exceedingly, for he was convinced more and more of the power of God; and he was also convinced that Alma and Amulek had a knowledge of him, for he was convinced that they knew the thoughts and intents of his heart; for power was given unto them that they might know of these things according to the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

Nice scripture reference; a few others:

Moses 1:27-28, “And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.”

D&C 46: 23, 27

D&C 33: 1

D&C 63: 41

Alma 18: 18

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Which of your leadership callings came from God and which ones did not?

I hope that God approved of all the callings I've had (not just the leadership ones).  He (and my ward and stake leaders who issued the callings) have at least allowed me to serve and I'm grateful for that.

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Have some of your leadership callings turned out well and others not so great?

I think there are ups and downs in every calling.  But overall, I've had great experiences serving in all of them

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How one observes and interprets the process to be working for others may not accommodate a complete picture.

Of course not.  I've never stated that I believe this.  Each of us has our own perspective, our own experiences and our own beliefs.  I've stated several times that others may not agree with my feelings here, but they come from what I have experienced, felt, and observed.

[SJR3t2]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Nice scripture reference; a few others:

Moses 1:27-28, “And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.”

 

D&C 46: 23, 27

 

D&C 33: 1

 

D&C 63: 41

 

Alma 18: 18

 

Thanks for those references, those were great.

Alma 10:17 Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, HE PERCEIVED THEIR THOUGHTS, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundations of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God.

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I hope that God approved of all the callings I've had (not just the leadership ones).  He (and my ward and stake leaders who issued the callings) have at least allowed me to serve and I'm grateful for that.

I think there are ups and downs in every calling.  But overall, I've had great experiences serving in all of them

Of course not.  I've never stated that I believe this.  Each of us has our own perspective, our own experiences and our own beliefs.  I've stated several times that others may not agree with my feelings here, but they come from what I have experienced, felt, and observed.

So you are not certain which of your callings actually came from God, but you hoped they were and accepted them in good faith, and generally feel that you served God by carrying them out. You seem to be saying you acted for the most part as though you were sure they were from God.

Is your hope (as opposed to certitude) that they came from God based on your experience with the fallibility of those who issued them, or on the level of your faith in God?

While Joseph Bishop is an easy target for criticism, I think it fair to say that the spiritual basis for his callings were fundamentally the same as yours or mine.

Would the gift of discernment have prevented the inspiration to call him/you, or better yet, to ignore a revelation to call him/you? Would less fallibility among the leadership have guaranteed the gift of discernment to operate in such a fashion? Does the Lord only call people who are good –technically, spiritually, morally/ethically, etc. – at what they are about to be asked to do?

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said:

Thanks for those references, those were great.

Alma 10:17 Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, HE PERCEIVED THEIR THOUGHTS, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundations of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God.

So it seems the gift of discernment covers a lot of applications!

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Would the gift of discernment have prevented the inspiration to call him/you, or better yet, to ignore a revelation to call him/you? Would less fallibility among the leadership have guaranteed the gift of discernment to operate in such a fashion? Does the Lord only call people who are good –technically, spiritually, morally/ethically, etc. – at what they are about to be asked to do?

I wouldn't use the word "revelation" regarding calling me (or Joseph Bishop or many others to callings).  I think more along the lines of inspiration or confirmation of the spirit....at least going on my experiences with issuing callings.  I'm not sure what you mean by "less fallibility among the leadership".....they are men who are fallible (as we all are as humans).  And as to your last question, none of us are all good or all bad, so that's difficult to give a definitive answer regarding what you're asking.   We're all sinners and some are working on repenting and improving.  There are all levels of sins as well and some who repeatedly commit sin without repenting.  Lots of variables.

[SJR3t2]

J Golden has a quote something along the lines of people are called by revelation, inspiration or relation. Loved listening to the guy on my mission.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, SJR3t2 said:

J Golden has a quote something along the lines of people are called by revelation, inspiration or relation. Loved listening to the guy on my mission.

Um...how old are you?

[SJR3t2]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Um...how old are you?

Um why? It was not live, it was tapes. lol

[california boy]

23 hours ago, JAHS said:

It is certainly the hope that they do, and in most cases they do just that. But in my 64 years in the church I know that slip ups can happen and am not so surprised when they do. 
But I still can manage to trust most every member to be true and faithful.......until they are not. 
Along with creating the expectation that leaders accurately discern, we are also taught that it sometimes doesn't happen that way because of everyone's lack of perfection in this life.
At least that has been my experience.

 

I believe that by in large, members who make up the church are very decent and honest individuals.  You could ask almost any of them to fulfill a calling and they would perform it to the best of their abilities.  Leaders look at a position that needs to be filled and figure out who is the most qualified or able to do the job.  99% of the time they do an excellent job and everything works out well.  When you think of a church that by in large is operated by non paid staff, don't you think it is amazing how well it does work?  I think it is because they are basically good people.  The church instills really good values in its members.  No power of discernment is needed.  

Where the church sets itself up for failure is pretending that God is involved in all of these callings.  God is talking to the church leader who is making the calling.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.  You can feel good about a decision without God being involved.  The expectation is just not reasonable.  And while I am at it, find your own keys. Quit asking God to find them for you.  The expectation is similar.  And in my opinion, His involvement is similar.  As all powerful as God is, I just don't think he micromanages every single living being on the face of this planet.  And I don't think he micromanages every single calling in the church.  Does that mean that God is not a part of our every day life?  Of course not.  That is not what I am saying.  How about this for a cupplet.  "Teach them correct principles and let people govern themselves."

[JAHS]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

I believe that by in large, members who make up the church are very decent and honest individuals.  You could ask almost any of them to fulfill a calling and they would perform it to the best of their abilities.  Leaders look at a position that needs to be filled and figure out who is the most qualified or able to do the job.  99% of the time they do an excellent job and everything works out well.  When you think of a church that by in large is operated by non paid staff, don't you think it is amazing how well it does work?  I think it is because they are basically good people.  The church instills really good values in its members.  No power of discernment is needed.  

Where the church sets itself up for failure is pretending that God is involved in all of these callings.  God is talking to the church leader who is making the calling.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.  You can feel good about a decision without God being involved.  The expectation is just not reasonable.  And while I am at it, find your own keys. Quit asking God to find them for you.  The expectation is similar.  And in my opinion, His involvement is similar.  As all powerful as God is, I just don't think he micromanages every single living being on the face of this planet.  And I don't think he micromanages every single calling in the church.  Does that mean that God is not a part of our every day life?  Of course not.  That is not what I am saying.  How about this for a cupplet.  "Teach them correct principles and let people govern themselves."

All good stuff. I personally have been involved in callings that were more out of desperation than inspiration, because there was no one else they could choose. I do however believe that as the saying goes,  "Whom the Lord Calls He Qualifies".
In other words when a calling is given to someone, however they were chosen, God will help you fulfill the calling by helping you learn what must be done and provide inspiration in making certain decisions that need to be made as you serve in that calling.  

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, JAHS said:

All good stuff. I personally have been involved in callings that were more out of desperation than inspiration, because there was no one else they could choose. I do however believe that as the saying goes,  "Whom the Lord Calls He Qualifies".
In other words when a calling is given to someone, however they were chosen, God will help you fulfill the calling by helping you learn what must be done and provide inspiration in making certain decisions that need to be made as you serve in that calling.  

I served in a bishopric for about 5 years, and there certainly were times when we would call someone that was not always the obvious choice.  But we felt he/she could do the job if given the chance and some help.  I can't ever remember being disappointed.

Doesn't always work out.  When I was on my mission, this bishop called a inactive guy to be his counselor.  The guy never reactivated and continued to not live the word of wisdom.  It didn't really go well for the ward.  Lots of hard feelings.  Others thought they would have been a better choice.  They were right.

[ksfisher]

Just now, california boy said:

I served in a bishopric for about 5 years, and there certainly were times when we would call someone that was not always the obvious choice.  But we felt he/she could do the job if given the chance and some help.  I can't ever remember being disappointed.

Doesn't always work out.  When I was on my mission, this bishop called a inactive guy to be his counselor.  The guy never reactivated and continued to not live the word of wisdom.  It didn't really go well for the ward.  Lots of hard feelings.  Others thought they would have been a better choice.  They were right.

Sometimes you have to just let people make choices.  I wonder if the inactive guy you speak about, if he decided to fulfill the calling, wouldn't have made a fantastic counselor.

Sometimes the callings don't work out, but I believe it's more because of the choices the person called makes that the calling itself (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions).

I do believe that the Lord puts us in positions that allow us to keep making choices. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I wouldn't use the word "revelation" regarding calling me (or Joseph Bishop or many others to callings).  I think more along the lines of inspiration or confirmation of the spirit....at least going on my experiences with issuing callings.  I'm not sure what you mean by "less fallibility among the leadership".....they are men who are fallible (as we all are as humans).  And as to your last question, none of us are all good or all bad, so that's difficult to give a definitive answer regarding what you're asking.   We're all sinners and some are working on repenting and improving.  There are all levels of sins as well and some who repeatedly commit sin without repenting.  Lots of variables.

OK, would the gift of discernment have prevented the inspiration/confirmation to call him/you, or better yet, to ignore inspiration/confirmation to call him/you?

You mentioned in your first post that our leaders are humans who make mistakes (that is what I mean by fallibility among the leadership). A leader making fewer or less serious mistakes would thus be less fallible than otherwise would be the case. You appealed to leadership fallibility to support your claim that Joseph Bishop’s call was a big mistake. Are you suggesting that a less fallible leader would have had the gift of discernment to avoid that mistake?

According to your experiences with issuing callings, have you issued callings that you felt were not “along the lines of inspiration or confirmation of the spirit?” If so, does this meant they indeed were not; or that you simply did not recognize them as such; or that the recipient could not have made them so, much as you did with some your callings that you hoped were from God?

My last question was about calling people like Bishop, who end up doing evil things. To rephrase, “Does the Lord only call people who haven’t done or won’t do things that make their call look like a big mistake; i.e., would the Lord not have called Bishop to be mission president?” This question has nothing to do with processes designed to weed such souls out of consideration by fallible leaders (worthiness interviews, annotated membership records, etc.), but with the call itself. There are lots of variable for sure, but don’t try too hard to avoid being black-and-white; all kinds of thinking has a place in the kingdom, and authenticity can contribute to clarity. :)

[california boy]

16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Sometimes you have to just let people make choices.  I wonder if the inactive guy you speak about, if he decided to fulfill the calling, wouldn't have made a fantastic counselor.

Sometimes the callings don't work out, but I believe it's more because of the choices the person called makes that the calling itself (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions).

I do believe that the Lord puts us in positions that allow us to keep making choices. 

Absolutely.  Like I said, I think 99% of the members are willing to do what they are asked to do to the best of their abilities.  It almost always works out well.  We always have a choice.

I don't think the bishop made a bad decision.  It might have turned this guy around and been one of those amazing success stories.  But the guy had to make the choice himself whether to rise up to the occasion or continue on his current path.

Edited April 27, 2018 by california boy

[SJR3t2]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Sometimes you have to just let people make choices.  I wonder if the inactive guy you speak about, if he decided to fulfill the calling, wouldn't have made a fantastic counselor.

Sometimes the callings don't work out, but I believe it's more because of the choices the person called makes that the calling itself (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions).

I do believe that the Lord puts us in positions that allow us to keep making choices. 

I think we can learn a lot from 1 Kings 13:16-19, one thing being just because God told you to do something doesn't mean people do it.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

OK, would the gift of discernment have prevented the inspiration/confirmation to call him/you, or better yet, to ignore inspiration/confirmation to call him/you?

Sorry....I can't tell what you're asking here (being sincere and maybe you can reword it and I'll answer).

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You mentioned in your first post that our leaders are humans who make mistakes (that is what I mean by fallibility among the leadership).

Yes, of course I know what "fallibility among the leadership" means.  I was referring to your usage of "less fallibility".  I'm not sure how a person can be more or less fallible....they're just fallible, IMO.  So, I don't really agree with your reasoning there (that follows the above).  

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

My last question was about calling people like Bishop, who end up doing evil things. 

From what I've read about this, there was good reason to believe he'd already done some things that should have kept him from being worthy and trustworthy of serving in a position over so many youth.  So, it wasn't just that he changed and suddenly started doing "evil things" after he was put in the position of president of the MTC.

Those are my impressions and feelings here, which have led me to form the beliefs I have regarding the wisdom and inspiration involved in issuing Bishop that calling.  Bottom line for me is that leaders make mistakes and this was one time when that happened.   I'm not sure why you argue that you agree leaders are fallible, but then can't see that this was possibly a mistake.

Edited April 27, 2018 by ALarson

[SJR3t2]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

OK, would the gift of discernment have prevented the inspiration/confirmation to call him/you, or better yet, to ignore inspiration/confirmation to call him/you?

 

You mentioned in your first post that our leaders are humans who make mistakes (that is what I mean by fallibility among the leadership). A leader making fewer or less serious mistakes would thus be less fallible than otherwise would be the case. You appealed to leadership fallibility to support your claim that Joseph Bishop’s call was a big mistake. Are you suggesting that a less fallible leader would have had the gift of discernment to avoid that mistake?

 

According to your experiences with issuing callings, have you issued callings that you felt were not “along the lines of inspiration or confirmation of the spirit?” If so, does this meant they indeed were not; or that you simply did not recognize them as such; or that the recipient could not have made them so, much as you did with some your callings that you hoped were from God?

 

My last question was about calling people like Bishop, who end up doing evil things. To rephrase, “Does the Lord only call people who haven’t done or won’t do things that make their call look like a big mistake; i.e., would the Lord not have called Bishop to be mission president?” This question has nothing to do with processes designed to weed such souls out of consideration by fallible leaders (worthiness interviews, annotated membership records, etc.), but with the call itself. There are lots of variable for sure, but don’t try too hard to avoid being black-and-white; all kinds of thinking has a place in the kingdom, and authenticity can contribute to clarity.

I definitely agree with regards to callings in general, but with regards of worthiness issues I don't especially to the extreme of Joseph Bishop.

[SJR3t2]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎26 at 10:26 AM, Duncan said:

it isn't a scriptural term,if anything. If it is something given to Bishops and leaders then you wonder why there are locks on temple lockers, if we are all honest with our fellow man we wouldn't be stealing from them in the Temple. Plus with all these stories about lying and how did they not know, like the Elder Richard Lyman of the 12 story, 20 years or something he was into shady something or other, how did the other Q12 not know until the 1940's? 

We are told leaders have it while they have the calling, but they are not the only ones who can have this gift.

[SJR3t2]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎26 at 11:59 AM, JAHS said:

I am reminded of something Elder Oaks said regarding the Mark Hoffman Incident:

"In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious."

I think this is part of the reason some are able to deceive and not be discovered by discernment. If church leaders have no reason to even suspect someone of deception or poor character they don't give it any thought and are therefore not receptive to any discernment about them, especially if that person has a good reputation and success of service and holding various church callings throughout their lives. 

I think most would recognize the local leaders are learning and doing the best they can. In my mind and I would guess many others also the problem comes into play when it's the pres, his counselors, and the quorum of 12 seems to not be using this gift much if at all.

[SJR3t2]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎26 at 12:38 PM, Tacenda said:

We need to step away from thinking the LDS church is the Lord's only church. Especially if the leaders aren't given the right signals from God, since a MTC president, mission president etc, has had many other callings leading up to their positions.

The signal wasn't there, or was there, and the leader who called these men, didn't get it. Why? IMO, it's because we aren't the only true church out there, there are no special groups that are in the only true church. Sure, we as individuals can find what is true for us, but the idea that we as a church have special means of communication with God  is ludicrous, and only hurts individuals out there that think they need the church to get it or else they won't get it from the right source. 

very well put, I whole hearted agree. There are only TWO churches not one true church and millions of false churches. People are seeking God and repenting in most if not all churches, and people are seeking after Satan and/or false god in every church also. In the BoM we have at least one example of two "true" churches operating at the same time without much or any knowledge of the other at a min no communication with each other.

In addition the scriptures don't define what church you are apart of by what building you go to, but by your actions.

D&C 10
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

Mosiah 26:22 For behold, THIS IS MY CHURCH; WHOSOEVER IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE BAPTIZED UNTO REPENTANCE. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive.