Did Mckenna Denson Meet With Thomas S. Monson After MTC?

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

Even if the MTC president could pull Denson out of class without her companion, multiple people would have taken note.  Her companion’s recollections in that regard would be interesting to know.

Has Mckenna Denson stated that she was pulled "out of class"?  I hadn't read or heard that.  

Do you believe she is lying regarding being sexually assaulted?

Edited April 30, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'd like to understand this point.  Per KUTV:

So how are we arriving at "it is likely Leavitt spoke unofficially to the stake president who then officially spoke to SL without Leavitt being aware he was doing it?"

Thanks,

-Smac

That is the only way I can think of where both are telling the truth.

The other two most likely options is he lied and he did tell the SP intentionally or contacted SL himself even or Denson is lying about meeting Asay.  I do think if Denson is telling the truth about meeting Asay ( and that is a definite "if" imo, though less 'definite' now in my view if she told the story in the same way she told Leavitt according to him), it makes the most sense Leavitt unofficially talked to his SP and unintentionally set the wheels in motion as I think it is most likely he is telling the truth (his emotional affect was very dismissive of Denson, it coincided perfectly with how he described his original reaction).

I am not saying the 'both telling the truth' option is the one most likely to happen, I was just listing the times she would have had a chance to speak to leaders by her own account.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Calm

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

 

 

Yep he has opinions and suspicion. He does not make a conclusive statement as to who or what entity is behind the various redactions; but creating a 

Gievn the lack of conclusive statement as the the source of the redactions can it be said that the podcast covers "some of the things the LDS Church doesn't want you to know are in the BYU Police reports".  

 

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I don't see a problem with the headline.  It's accurate.  We don't know exactly who is behind the various elements of the cover up but it's all being done within the Church.

What is it that you disagree with?

Did you think the Church DOES or DID want us to know about the elements of the investigation and allegations that have been hidden?

Are you suggesting that someone outside the Church has been trying to orchestrate this cover up?

FYI, just read a post by consig elsewhere addressing this debate between the two of you.  He stated that he doesn't come up with the headline; Bill Reel does.  Seems like a pretty honest source of potential difference to me.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Has Mckenna Denson stated that she was pulled "out of class"?  I hadn't read or heard that.  

During the press conference I am practically positive she spoke on how she was the first to be called on the group to prayer and believe she added the class info (I can see her telling it, but it may be a blended memory), think during the transcript, absolutely in the original police report (she suggested they could talk to her Spanish teacher for confirmation, they did and she confirmed), I can't remember the 12/6 letter...only read it twice and in a way to find info, not to fix details in my memory.

Her Spanish teacher did take note and confirmed it happened when talked to by police.

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

During the press conference I am practically positive she spoke on how she was the first to be called on the group to prayer and believe she added the class info (I can see her telling it, but it may be a blended memory), think during the transcript, absolutely in the original police report (she suggested they could talk to her Spanish teacher for confirmation, they did and she confirmed), I can't remember the 12/6 letter...only read it twice and in a way to find info, not to fix details in my memory.

Her Spanish teacher did take note and confirmed it happened when talked to by police.

Ok... thanks, Calm!  I remember her saying she was called on to pray and that she was called into his office with a few (?) other sister missionaries who also had a history of sexual abuse.  

I had not heard that the teacher confirmed that this took place.  You have a very good memory!

Edited April 30, 2018 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

What are you talking about Jeanne?  What part of PG's post makes you think the bolded things above?

The church has a record of sweeping things under the rug..in my opinion.

[rockpond]

52 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

The injunctive-relief thing (request to order the church to change its interview policies) was the most-ludicrous part of the complaint.  Denson’s lawyers must have thought they were in the 9th Circuit or something.

Even if the MTC president could pull Denson out of class without her companion, multiple people would have taken note.  Her companion’s recollections in that regard would be interesting to know.

Denson’s MTC instructor has confirmed that Denson was pulled out of class to meet with Bishop.  Bishop has never denied that.  And, both Bishop and a former MTC employee have corroborated the existence of the room where the abuse occurred.  Additionally, Denson’s YSA Ward Bishop has confirmed details regarding what she told him in the 80’s.  

Bishop has confessed to much of this in the BYU police interview that they attempted to hide from the public. 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

The injunctive-relief thing (request to order the church to change its interview policies) was the most-ludicrous part of the complaint.  Denson’s lawyers must have thought they were in the 9th Circuit or something.

 It is quite possible they are using the ProtectTheChildren movement to give credibility to their own case...something new to the press conference was her sharing how the sexually explicit questions she was asked during her baptismal interview at age 15 (convert, nonmember family, friends at school led to her conversion) even though it appeared to be a major incident in her emotional history the way she told it...if this was in any of the previous reports by her, I don't remember it and someone needs to correct me as I see that as a potentially convenient memory because of the timing when it first was reported. She doubled down on its importance by saying if she hadn't been asked those questions privately by a man she saw as an authority, the rape would never have happened.  I can't remember if she used the words "grooming" (there was no hint that she thought the Bishop had any inappropriate desires towards her), but it 'feels' like she did.

 Otoh, given her physically abusive background with her stepfather which iirc was sexual assault though he didn't rape her, I can understand why there may have been somethings said out of concern by the Bishop that she knew what the proper boundaries were given the sexual abuse destroyed those boundaries and as she was 15, which even in the 80s many youth were sexually active, and it is not uncommon for sexual abuse victims to develop promiscuity (various theories suggesting why victims actually look for ways to repeat the abuse, I just read an article analyzing the theories if anyone is interested)...anyway, as an older teen convert with a probably known sexual history even if details were not known, I see it as very possible the bishop was using the opportunity to ensure she understood the Law of Chasity rules thoroughly as unlikely the missionaries went into that type of discussion in detail.  

It is a plausible scenario imo; it is also plausible the memory was 'recovered' through being questioned by her lawyer about chain of events and the knowledge of the PTC movement led to her thinking 'oh yeah, this happened to me'.  And it is plausible that she knowingly created the story because she knew it could never be refuted and it helped her case.

[Calm]

"Denson told the BYU PD that she went back to the MTC from DC "

Possibly not, she said she stayed with a family in Provo, not at the MTC.  I don't think she said where the counseling session or sessions took place with the therapist nor where the interview with Elder Monso took place.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok... thanks, Calm!  I remember her saying she was called on to pray and that she was called into his office with a few (?) other sister missionaries who also had a history of sexual abuse.  

I had not heard that the teacher confirmed that this took place.  You have a very good memory!

I read the BYU 2nd to be released police report (Mormonleaks site has it), this is iirc the only place that info was available.

[provoman]

54 minutes ago, ttribe said:

 

FYI, just read a post by consig elsewhere addressing this debate between the two of you.  He stated that he doesn't come up with the headline; Bill Reel does.  Seems like a pretty honest source of potential difference to me.

hahahahahhahahaha, what terrible joke from consig. The podcast title is not the issue

In that thread, the first is consig which reads in part "The new Radio Free Mormon podcast covers some of the things the LDS Church doesn't want you to know are in the BYU Police reports"

So consig does not get to blame Bill. The podcast title from Bill shows journalist honesty.

Edited May 1, 2018 by provoman

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

The injunctive-relief thing (request to order the church to change its interview policies) was the most-ludicrous part of the complaint.  Denson’s lawyers must have thought they were in the 9th Circuit or something.

Even if the MTC president could pull Denson out of class without her companion, multiple people would have taken note.  Her companion’s recollections in that regard would be interesting to know.

Craig Vernon - Denson's attorney - is no stranger to David Jordan - the attorney hired by the Church. Vernon and Jordan are opposung council in another case against the Church.

The injunctive relief is silly, and unconstitutional.

 

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

hahahahahhahahaha, what terrible joke from consig. The podcast title is not the issue

So consig does get blame Bill. The podcast title from Bill is shows journalist honesty.

What? That makes no sense!  

Do you personally dislike consig?  This comes across as being very personal with you to the point that you can’t even try to be objective.

And weren’t you griping about the title earlier and now you say it’s not the issue?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

send her and her daughter to the hell they already live in!

Are you talking about her younger daughter or her older one?  In either case why would you think their life is a living hell?  The younger daughter's letter about her mom in the press conference spoke of her in glowing terms, sounds like that daughter saw her life with her mom as great.  I don't remember anyone saying the daughter was being harassed.  The older daughter was adopted, has had very limited contact with Denson it sounds like over the years since she tracked down her birth mom; I don't remember her saying anything negative about her own life beyond being disturbed when she was shown the dossier by someone with her name in it.  Her name has not been publicly released, there were no comments of her being harassed as far as I have seen.

So what hell are you talking about?

[esodije]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Radio Free Mormon has several podcast episodes that do a thorough job of going through all of the evidence.  https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/03/radio-free-mormon-28-church-sex-scandal-cover/

I think the SL Trib would be the outside of what I would consider a non-speculative source at this point.  Too many people want to draw unwarranted conclusions from evidence that is unclear or which may, in fact, have been plucked out of “the blue or the brown,” as they say.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

Too many people want to draw unwarranted conclusions from evidence that is unclear or which may, in fact, have been plucked out of “the blue or the brown,” as they say.

Such as?  Can you specifically name which pieces of evidence in this case "have been plucked out of 'the blue'"?

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I think the SL Trib would be the outside of what I would consider a non-speculative source at this point.  

The link that rockpond gave you is not from the SL Trib.

Edited May 1, 2018 by ALarson

[esodije]

 

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Do you believe she is lying regarding being sexually assaulted?

Do I think she’s lying?  No—no one goes to those lengths to propagate something they know is untrue.  However, I also think—as turned out to be the case in the Duke lacrosse case—that the accuser may be delusional.  Having gone through two months at the MTC myself in 1979, I find the whole scenario to be possible, but highly improbable.  To put a known sexual predator in charge of the MTC would not only be a massive procedural breakdown, but would entail depravity on a level that I’ve never seen in the church.  And for an MTC president, even an out-of-control horndog, to attempt to diddle sister missionaries in so close and non-private a facility as the MTC would be reckless—never mind depraved—beyond anything I could imagine.

[ttribe]

38 minutes ago, provoman said:

hahahahahhahahaha, what terrible joke from consig. The podcast title is not the issue

In that thread, the first is consig which reads in part "The new Radio Free Mormon podcast covers some of the things the LDS Church doesn't want you to know are in the BYU Police reports"

So consig does not get to blame Bill. The podcast title from Bill shows journalist honesty.

Okay, man. Just tried to pass on what I saw. I still think you're trying to make something out of nothing, but whatever floats your boat.

[provoman]

38 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What? That makes no sense!  

Do you personally dislike consig?  This comes across as being very personal with you to the point that you can’t even try to be objective.

And weren’t you griping about the title earlier and now you say it’s not the issue?

Did you edit out the most significant part to my post, which specifically addresses the question you are asking? But I will add a screen grabs. 

Here is what I posted earlier today:

Quote

 

Sure lets discuss that on a message board is posted:

"The new Radio Free Mormon podcast covers some of the things the LDS Church doesn't want you to know are in the BYU Police reports."

And compare, the above statement to what is said in the podcast:

"Once again I cannot say whether the Apostles are involved in directing what is and what is not disclosed to the public in these reports."  time stamp 20:25

 

Lets see what was created under the screen name consiglieri:

 

 

Here is what Bill wrote on the podcast website:

 

Here is consigs deflective response, which ignores the issue as was raised earlier in this thread:

 

Why is consig blaming Bill Reel for that post that was created under consig's screen name?

Edited May 1, 2018 by provoman

[Calm]

"The flawed legal strategy of we-must-depose-Elder-Wells-regarding-what-Joseph-Bishop-confessed-to-him is incoherent"

My understanding is they are choosing to interpret Bishop's comments about his confession to Wells and his inappropriate encounters to women prior to the MTC in the worse light possible.  Because when she asked him what other women were there, they have lumped all in the sexually assaulted category while of one actually goes to the details provided by both Denson and Bishop, there is nothing even close to sexual assault but more he was in the wrong place at the wrong time...

1) the woman in the hot tub/hot springs/something similar that Denson details and  Bishop corrects vaguely (not a hot tub; Utah, not Wyoming; something similar happened but no description of what that  was) removed her top herself and there were multiple church leaders there.  Bishop was an observer only from what both of them said.  So why would he had included that in a confession...probably because of his reaction to it, perhaps he obsessed about it, perhaps he kept looking rather than adverting his eyes, or perhaps he simply got turned on at the moment and interpreted that as sinful.

2) the woman in Florida, again iirc there was another man there, she had a revealing sunsuit, but did not remove the top

3) he stated there was something that halfway happened (and then iirc he states nothing actually happened, if so it sounds more like he was thinking of maybe doing something but didn't) when he was a young missionary, no details given.

Unless there were other events Denson is aware of or Bishop confessed to in the police interview, nothing in his confession to Elder Wells comes even close to sexual assault or even inappropriate behaviour because in the two semidetailed cases he was a passive observer.

Deposition of Elder Wells for anything prior to the MTC is a washout imo.

They may be hoping that because Wells had a long standing relationship with Bishop, that Bishop confessed to him later.  Bishop is confused and says twice he told Wells about Denson (she corrected him the second time that he couldn't have).  Perhaps they are hoping this isn't a created memory brought on by the questioning, but that Bishop is conflating confessions and he did confess to Wells about the sexual abuse that occurred at the MTC later on, but Wells continued to promote him as a great example of Church leadership (as evidenced by the forward in one of Bishop's book, which was held up as if highly significant by Vernon at the press conference (QandA period, about halfway through iirc) 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

 

Do I think she’s lying?  No—no one goes to those lengths to propagate something they know is untrue.  However, I also think—as turned out to be the case in the Duke lacrosse case—that the accuser may be delusional.

What do you make of the second victim and Bishop's BYU Police confession to asking her to bare her breasts for him?

----

Your time in the MTC...

Were people in the hallways during classtimes or was it like BYU and there would be areas that were more or less empty except between classes?

This was apparently in the basement nearby the cafeteria.  The MTC employee stated it was out of the way in a generally inaccessible part of the basement, one had to go through multiple locked doors to get to it, Denson said two locked doors.  Obviously accessible to the cleaning crew, but they likely worked either at night or in the early hours (my shift cleaning the Varsity Theater was from 6Am to 10AM and except for the vacuuming the rug in the sitting area nearby, I would see no one during my shift so I see possibilities of areas that are off limits to everyone save a few during some hours) and Bishop would be aware of when they would be there most likely.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

22 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

 

Do I think she’s lying?  No—no one goes to those lengths to propagate something they know is untrue.  However, I also think—as turned out to be the case in the Duke lacrosse case—that the accuser may be delusional.  Having gone through two months at the MTC myself in 1979, I find the whole scenario to be possible, but highly improbable.  To put a known sexual predator in charge of the MTC would not only be a massive procedural breakdown, but would entail depravity on a level that I’ve never seen in the church.  And for an MTC president, even an out-of-control horndog, to attempt to diddle sister missionaries in so close and non-private a facility as the MTC would be reckless—never mind depraved—beyond anything I could imagine.

You do realize that Bishop has confessed on two separate occasions to much of the depravity alleged by Denson, right?  And that he has self-described as a sex addict and that he told this to at least one ecclesiastical leader?

[rockpond]

46 minutes ago, Kevin Kartchner said:

I think the SL Trib would be the outside of what I would consider a non-speculative source at this point.  Too many people want to draw unwarranted conclusions from evidence that is unclear or which may, in fact, have been plucked out of “the blue or the brown,” as they say.

I didn’t say that you had to agree with RFM’s conclusions.  But he does a good job of methodically laying out the evidence.  And he’s been making GRAMA requests of the BYU PD to try to get all of the evidence and unredacted reports. 

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, provoman said:

Did you edit out the most significant part to my post, which specifically addresses the question you are asking? But I will add a screen grabs. 

Here is what I posted earlier today:

Lets see what was created under the screen name consiglieri:

 

 

Here is what Bill wrote on the podcast website:

 

Here is consigs deflective response, which ignores the issue as was raised earlier in this thread:

 

Why is consig blaming Bill Reel for that post that was created under consig's screen name?

Good grief.  Let it go.  It's been explained to you several times by several posters.  You're making yourself look foolish here.