ksfisher Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: As to why I am asking, see above. But heck yeah, it is comparable for 80% of humanity in the USA and probably most of the world. As to the second question- do you really think bus drivers work on Sundays so they can take people to and from church? That attitude can only exist where everyone is Mormon. Where NO ONE is Mormon, it makes no sense at all. Work is work to these folks- it is more hours and they get paid. I know most here are middle class or better but it seems NO ONE has any understanding of what it is to be among the "working poor". You go to your boss and ask for Sundays off but for others it is work or lose your job. I am just having trouble understanding the logic here of how working for Amazon on Sunday is "wrong" for a non-member but somehow it is "better" for a bus driver who is also a non-member because he might help someone attend church. Is that the logic? Many members must work on Sundays to keep their jobs, and I know it would be ideal supposedly if they quit those jobs and went on church assistance. I don't know. It just bothers me that we have whole threads arguing fine points of allegedly "doctrines" when GA's have repeatedly said we should NOT define in such detail. How many steps can we take on sundays if those steps are considered "work"? Under what conditions? If we define them as "necessary"? What is the precise definition of what we are not to define?? It really bugs me. If you feel bad about doing it on a Sunday and it is not an activity you can "consecrate to the Lord" then don't do it. That is my personal rule. If there is a compelling reason to go out to dinner and you can dedicate that reason to the Lord's work- I would do it in a minute. If it was family activity including non-members and you want to ask Aunt Tessie, whom you have not seen in 20 years, about her family history- I am there. If there are non-members there who will ask me how my day is going and I talk about church, I am there. I am not going to sanctimoniously skip the dinner so they think that I am "better" than they are and "set an example" when everyone will see it as the former anyway. Am I going to stop for a burger on my way home from church? Heck no. But all these detailed rule definitions are just ridiculous and not the gospel of Jesus Christ. "How do we hallow the Sabbath day? In my much younger years, I studied the work of others who had compiled lists of things to do and things not to do on the Sabbath. It wasn’t until later that I learned from the scriptures that my conduct and my attitude on the Sabbath constituted a sign between me and my Heavenly Father.12 With that understanding, I no longer needed lists of dos and don’ts. When I had to make a decision whether or not an activity was appropriate for the Sabbath, I simply asked myself, “What sign do I want to give to God?” That question made my choices about the Sabbath day crystal clear." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-sabbath-is-a-delight?lang=eng Good advice from President Nelson 3
bluebell Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I understand you to say that I should not criticize your husband for making sure his employees don't work on a sunday. I re-read your statement which I misunderstood It's admirable that your husband worries about that, but that has nothing to do with my point. It was not about what your husband worries about. My post was about USPS and Amazon delivery drivers who now have to deliver packages to customers on Sundays and how my husband feels bad when he orders a package and it shows up on Sunday. They are not his employees. But, if my post has nothing to do with your point, then why reply to my post to make your point? I don't understand why you would reply to a post but then not say anything relevant to the post. I think that's what's confusing me.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2018 Author Posted January 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Sunday21 said: Hi. I taught. We discussed why Gratitude is important. We obey the Sabbath as a form of Gratitude to God. We discussed why we were grateful to Heavenly Father. I had called about 5 people previously and asked them to discuss this. We then talked about how we do/will make Jesus central to our Sabbath observance. We went around the room in order and everyone contributed. This last step went surprisingly well. Sisters seemed to appreciate the opportunity to express their thoughts. No one passed out from nervousness. I might try the go around the room technique again! Is there another 4th Sunday RS/priesthood teacher here? I am hoping to compare notes and suggestions on how to handle the 4th Sunday Sabbath classes. Being a convert, I am not steeped in years of LDS teaching experiences. I am always winging it! Next class, I was thinking of examples of Jesus's behavior on the Sabbath. What can we learn from this. I was also trying to think of a way to talk about individual standards for Sabbath day observance: Don't judge and Try not to feel judged. I can't give you a "like" for this, because you haven't been posting here long enough. So I'll just say, Good post! Your going around the room and asking the sisters what they plan to do is an element that I'm afraid has been missing from these third-hour meetings. I know that a weekly action plan of some sort, be it individual or collective, was something the general Church leaders intended when they implemented this new curriculum.
Sunday21 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 @Scott Lloyd. Thanks! A weekly action plan...Hmmm. I will need to think about how to do that. Right now I am stumped! Next lesson, I thought that we could review Jesus’s Sunday healing miracles and talk about why these healings are appropriate on the Sabbath. We could talk about Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath. I hate to give my sisters more to do on the Sabbath. A lot of my sisters are really worn out. Some work as domestic servants. How about asking them to pray and thank God for the Sabbath? Pres Eyring has a talk about feeling gratitude for the Sabbath. What do you think? Anyway thanks!
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Sunday21 said: @Scott Lloyd. Thanks! A weekly action plan...Hmmm. I will need to think about how to do that. Right now I am stumped! Next lesson, I thought that we could review Jesus’s Sunday healing miracles and talk about why these healings are appropriate on the Sabbath. We could talk about Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath. I hate to give my sisters more to do on the Sabbath. A lot of my sisters are really worn out. Some work as domestic servants. How about asking them to pray and thank God for the Sabbath? Pres Eyring has a talk about feeling gratitude for the Sabbath. What do you think? Anyway thanks! Sounds great to me. An action plan need not be laborious. It could be merely encouragement to do what we all know we should be doing anyway.
ksfisher Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Sunday21 said: How about asking them to pray and thank God for the Sabbath? Pres Eyring has a talk about feeling gratitude for the Sabbath. What do you think? Anyway thanks! A fantastic talk! “One blessing for which we can be grateful is that we are there in that sacrament meeting at all, gathered with more than one or two of His disciples in His name.” “another blessing we can count is that we have the opportunity to take the sacrament each week—prepared, blessed, and passed by authorized servants of God.” “Of all the blessings we can count, the greatest by far is the feeling of forgiveness that comes as we partake of the sacrament.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/gratitude-on-the-sabbath-day?lang=eng
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 5 hours ago, ksfisher said: "How do we hallow the Sabbath day? In my much younger years, I studied the work of others who had compiled lists of things to do and things not to do on the Sabbath. It wasn’t until later that I learned from the scriptures that my conduct and my attitude on the Sabbath constituted a sign between me and my Heavenly Father.12 With that understanding, I no longer needed lists of dos and don’ts. When I had to make a decision whether or not an activity was appropriate for the Sabbath, I simply asked myself, “What sign do I want to give to God?” That question made my choices about the Sabbath day crystal clear." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-sabbath-is-a-delight?lang=eng Good advice from President Nelson Thanks This is exactly my point. And if going out to dinner to help your family understand the church, that gives a sign of devotion to God in my opinion. I am surprised that some of those who have disagreed with me on that point seem to "like" this post. I don't get it at all.
SeekerB Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/28/2018 at 5:14 PM, bluebell said: I remember my first Sunday at the MTC a whole bunch of the girls were scandalized that I bought something from the snack vending machines in our dorm on Sunday because "spending on money on the Sabbath is breaking it." I thought that was the craziest thing that I had ever heard, having been taught that it wasn't the money aspect of not shopping that was to be avoided but instead the aspect of having people work on Sundays. It is interesting how people can take the same thing and interpret it in totally different ways. Heavenly Father is not so rigid that he doesn't allow for reality situations. For example, a couple of weeks ago we drove 120 miles to visit my son for a baby blessing, his third child. As usual, we prayed before leaving home. As we drove into the parking lot of the church steam started coming from under the hood. We parked, I popped it open and water was pouring out from somewhere down in the engine compartment. There was nothing I could do then, so we went in for Sacrament meeting and the blessing. After the meeting I used a pitcher from the kitchen and filled the overflow tank up, then drove the short distance to his house. Lots of his wife's family were there so we ate, then had family time. I wasn't quite sure what I would do, but I wasn't going to mess up his family time. Well, after about three hours, everybody else left. No mechanic was available on Sunday, so we pulled the car into his garage and tried to diagnose the problem. A neighbor and friend of his, also a member, came over to help. We weren't prepared to spend the night, but I had brought a change of clothes. After determining it was the water pump, he and I went to an open parts store and picked up a new one. Then we found a youtube video on how to change a water pump on exactly the same vehicle: year, make, and model. His friend had to leave for a couple of hours for some church related meetings, but came back and the three of us repaired it, finishing at 11 pm. It was too late to drive home, but at least it was fixed. We referred to it as an "ox in the mire" situation. 3
ksfisher Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks This is exactly my point. And if going out to dinner to help your family understand the church, that gives a sign of devotion to God in my opinion. I am surprised that some of those who have disagreed with me on that point seem to "like" this post. I don't get it at all. I think that’s because we all see sabbath day observance in our own way. And part of the feeling that I get from President Nelson is that sabbath observance is a very personal thing. It is the sign that I give to God. At the same time, though, I need to need cognizant of how other peoples perceptions of my actions effect them. Edited January 30, 2018 by ksfisher 3
Sunday21 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 57 minutes ago, ksfisher said: A fantastic talk! “One blessing for which we can be grateful is that we are there in that sacrament meeting at all, gathered with more than one or two of His disciples in His name.” “another blessing we can count is that we have the opportunity to take the sacrament each week—prepared, blessed, and passed by authorized servants of God.” “Of all the blessings we can count, the greatest by far is the feeling of forgiveness that comes as we partake of the sacrament.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/10/gratitude-on-the-sabbath-day?lang=eng Agreed! Great Talk! (I privately call it the ‘Please stop whining talk’. And Mormons should never wine! 🍷
SeekerB Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Sunday21 said: Hi. I taught. We discussed why Gratitude is important. We obey the Sabbath as a form of Gratitude to God. We discussed why we were grateful to Heavenly Father. I had called about 5 people previously and asked them to discuss this. We then talked about how we do/will make Jesus central to our Sabbath observance. We went around the room in order and everyone contributed. This last step went surprisingly well. Sisters seemed to appreciate the opportunity to express their thoughts. No one passed out from nervousness. I might try the go around the room technique again! Is there another 4th Sunday RS/priesthood teacher here? I am hoping to compare notes and suggestions on how to handle the 4th Sunday Sabbath classes. Being a convert, I am not steeped in years of LDS teaching experiences. I am always winging it! Next class, I was thinking of examples of Jesus's behavior on the Sabbath. What can we learn from this. I was also trying to think of a way to talk about individual standards for Sabbath day observance: Don't judge and Try not to feel judged. Don't feel bad. I've been teaching the fourth Sunday lesson for several years and this past Sunday I felt like I was winging it. I probably spent twice the time putting this one together. It turned out well, and there was some good discussion. But I was sweating it.
Sunday21 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Sounds great to me. An action plan need not be laborious. It could be merely encouragement to do what we all know we should be doing anyway. Thanks! Really appreciate the help!
Sunday21 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, SeekerB said: Don't feel bad. I've been teaching the fourth Sunday lesson for several years and this past Sunday I felt like I was winging it. I probably spent twice the time putting this one together. It turned out well, and there was some good discussion. But I was sweating it. Thanks!
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, bluebell said: My post was about USPS and Amazon delivery drivers who now have to deliver packages to customers on Sundays and how my husband feels bad when he orders a package and it shows up on Sunday. They are not his employees. But, if my post has nothing to do with your point, then why reply to my post to make your point? I don't understand why you would reply to a post but then not say anything relevant to the post. I think that's what's confusing me. I apologized that my incorrect inference was that these were his employees that he worried about working on Sundays, and so made sure they did not have to do so. I thought we had gone over this before. I inferred that because I could not imagine someone worrying about someone else's employees having to work on Sundays, when he had no control over it. That is the way the world is, and I feel it is unhealthy to worry about things about which you can do nothing. I wish people were not murdered, that babies are not aborted, that there was nobody being mean to anyone anywhere. I wish that everyone followed the categorical imperative, otherwise known as the Golden Rule, and everyone did unto others as they would want to be treated, universally. If I worried about every evil on earth that was not under my control to fix, I would go crazy and not be able to sleep at night. I am sure your husband is more rational than I am though. or is able to tolerate "feeling bad" more than I do. It's commendable that he tries to have deliveries made at other times. But if I get a package on Sundays, that is the compromise the employee made in order to have a job. That decision was between himself and the employer, or perhaps between the employee and God if and only if the employee even worried about God not wanting him to work on Sundays. I think probably 98% of USPS delivery people do not even think twice about working on Sundays, in urban areas in 2018. Where I live nearly everyone is irreligious and the total population of the area of our ward boundaries is probably around 100,000. Of those 100k people we have a sacrament attendence of around 100. That makes the percentage of Mormons who worry about attending sacrament meeting at about 1 person per thousand in our area. I have no idea how many do not attend because they are forced to work, but I would bet it is less than 10 or so, out of 100,000. I would allege that a few more are Evangelicals and Catholics who also care somewhat about working on Sundays, but the numbers obviously are extremely small. Why discuss the numbers? Because there are few if any USPS drivers who care about missing church which lessens, at least in my callous mind, the number of those about whom someone should "feel bad" especially considering that those who have accepted that compromise have probably done so because they are happy to have a good job with benefits. For those who DO feel bad about working on Sundays, I suspect that were I in that situation, I would find another job. So in my mind there is virtually no reason to worry about them.. Sorry. I have read this over and don't know how to say it any other way. But I still don't get this Quote I think it's weird when people go on and on about how the church does not provide a list of do's and don'ts for Sabbath day observance but then also argue that doing 'this or that' on the Sabbath isn't a sin. The absence of a list of do's and don'ts means that what is or isn't a sin is between us and the Lord and we do not get to declare for other people that 1) something is a sin, but we also don't get to declare that 2) something isn't. We don't get a say either way. I hear a lot of people arguing point 1 while ignoring point 2, which doesn't make any sense. Edited January 30, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think that’s because we all see sabbath day observance in our own way. And part of the feeling that I get from President Nelson is that sabbath observance is a very personal thing. It is the sign that I give to God. At the same time, though, I need to need cognizant of how other peoples perceptions of my actions effect them. Including them NOT seeing Mormons as sanctimonious bores who think they are better than everyone else, even when we are.
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 I was called on to do a Sunday lesson week before last, because it was ward conference and all the regular teachers were in a teacher's council class- or whatever the official title is. I think the key is to just know the material well and ask the class good questions and let the discussion flow. When someone gets close to some point the lesson wants you to make, bring it up. I think it went pretty well. The trick was to LISTEN to the discussion, think about the discussion and not what you are going to say next. Just go with the flow of subjects and when you get close to another point, take it in that direction. But yes you have to know the material! 1
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 5 hours ago, bluebell said: My post was about USPS and Amazon delivery drivers who now have to deliver packages to customers on Sundays and how my husband feels bad when he orders a package and it shows up on Sunday. They are not his employees. But, if my post has nothing to do with your point, then why reply to my post to make your point? I don't understand why you would reply to a post but then not say anything relevant to the post. I think that's what's confusing me. The point is not about your husband's worries but whether or not it is wrong for deliveries to be made on Sundays by people who need a job. Your husband worries are not the point of the thread, but keeping the Sabbath day holy IS the topic- so the question is- are those who need to work on Sundays "wrong" to continue doing so, regardless of if your husband feels bad or not. Does that help?
bluebell Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The point is not about your husband's worries but whether or not it is wrong for deliveries to be made on Sundays by people who need a job. Your husband worries are not the point of the thread, but keeping the Sabbath day holy IS the topic- so the question is- are those who need to work on Sundays "wrong" to continue doing so, regardless of if your husband feels bad or not. Does that help? I disagree. Being concerned about someone working to fulfill a nonessential request on Sunday is a legitimate aspect of Sabbath Day Observance discussion. So yes, my husband's worries are part of the point of the thread. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/29/2018 at 12:36 PM, mfbukowski said: For you, maybe culturally. For others, no. See above. I find guidance in these words from Isaiah: Quote 13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it (Emphasis mine) To me, it says there are any number of things that would be appropriate, even laudable, on other days of the week, that are not appropriate for the Sabbath due to the consecrated nature of that day. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I find guidance in these words from Isaiah: (Emphasis mine) To me, it says there are any number of things that would be appropriate, even laudable, on other days of the week, that are not appropriate for the Sabbath due to the consecrated nature of that day. And so you agree with President Nelson "in his younger days", but it appears he has advanced beyond those views. Quote How do we hallow the Sabbath day? In my much younger years, I studied the work of others who had compiled lists of things to do and things not to do on the Sabbath. It wasn’t until later that I learned from the scriptures that my conduct and my attitude on the Sabbath constituted a sign between me and my Heavenly Father.12 With that understanding, I no longer needed lists of dos and don’ts. When I had to make a decision whether or not an activity was appropriate for the Sabbath, I simply asked myself, “What sign do I want to give to God?” That question made my choices about the Sabbath day crystal clear. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-sabbath-is-a-delight?lang=eng Edited January 30, 2018 by mfbukowski
kiwi57 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: And so you agree with President Nelson "in his younger days", but it appears he has advanced beyond those views. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-sabbath-is-a-delight?lang=eng I don't really like the implied assumption of superiority (and equally implied criticism of others) found in the claim that someone has "advanced beyond" what your interlocutor is saying. Besides, Isaiah isn't offering a "list of do's and don'ts." And I somehow doubt that President Nelson would be quite as dismissive of his teaching as you seem to suppose. In fact, in the very talk you link to, then-Elder Nelson cites the very same Isaiah passage with approval. "For the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." 1
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, kiwi57 said: I don't really like the implied assumption of superiority (and equally implied criticism of others) found in the claim that someone has "advanced beyond" what your interlocutor is saying. Besides, Isaiah isn't offering a "list of do's and don'ts." And I somehow doubt that President Nelson would be quite as dismissive of his teaching as you seem to suppose. In fact, in the very talk you link to, then-Elder Nelson cites the very same Isaiah passage with approval. "For the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." I apologize if it was offensive. That was not my intent. Yes I believe there are stages we all go through in progressing in understanding and some are ahead of others. I think the idea of progression in the gospel is quite Mormon and I am certain that the prophet is more mature in his understanding than others. I did not mean to be offensive, to me I was stating my interpretation of a theory about cognitive development put forth by William Perry. I think the theory is correct and applies to my personal life in moving through the stages. https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html I have no problem with the Isaiah passage and cannot figure out why anyone would find conflict. In all the instances I have mentioned, the people believed they were doing what the Lord wanted and were choosing the better way of celebrating the sabbath when they had the option. Clearly one cannot do what the Lord wants - without knowing what the Lord wants- and that is dependent on what one believes the Lord wants. That is evident in accepting Isaiah's assertion that it came from the mouth of the Lord. How can we know it came from the Lord without our personal testimony that indeed it DID come from the Lord? And so we are back to the beginning. If we believe "doing what we want" IS in fact following what the Lord wants, it is a distinction without a difference. It is a circular argument. "Don't do what YOU want- do what the Lord wants" but how do you know what the Lord wants unless you are doing what you WANT to do the please the Lord because what you are doing is what you believe the Lord wants? How could one disagree with Isaiah about that? Edited January 31, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, kiwi57 said: I don't really like the implied assumption of superiority (and equally implied criticism of others) found in the claim that someone has "advanced beyond" what your interlocutor is saying. Besides, Isaiah isn't offering a "list of do's and don'ts." And I somehow doubt that President Nelson would be quite as dismissive of his teaching as you seem to suppose. In fact, in the very talk you link to, then-Elder Nelson cites the very same Isaiah passage with approval. "For the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." More thoughts about this: Why would President Nelson distinguish between what he believed in his "younger days" as opposed to what he now believes if it was not an "advance" in his beliefs? The idea that this would be offensive is quite bothersome to me, personally, since I see advancing in belief to be a good thing and am really having trouble understanding why this would be offensive. Could someone explain it to me? Scott, I did not mean to be offensive. If someone said this to me Quote And so you agree with President Nelson "in his younger days", but it appears he has advanced beyond those views. I would not be offended at all, I would simply evaluate the alleged "advance" and see if indeed I was wrong. No problem. I am here to learn and always acknowledge when I mess up as I am doing right now. (probably both at once, as usual) Big foot, bigger mouth. Edited January 31, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
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