An open letter to the First Presidency of the LDS Church

[SJR3t2]

It's one thing to not practicing gay members have some privileges, it's quite another to ban their children for their parents transgressions.

[Meerkat]

18 hours ago, SJR3t2 said:

It's one thing to not practicing gay members have some privileges, it's quite another to ban their children for their parents transgressions.

They aren't banned for life.  It seems to me the Church's position is pro family.  The Church will always teach the doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Meerkat

[MormonMason]

18 hours ago, SJR3t2 said:

It's one thing to not practicing gay members have some privileges, it's quite another to ban their children for their parents transgressions.

They aren't banned.  They just have to be 18 years of age and reject gay lifestyle and marriage to be baptized.  They can attend Church all they want but cannot be baptized until those conditions are met.  Wait for yet further changes in future as gay activism for gay marriage in the Church and also against the Church increases, including the wording of some of the covenants in the temple.

[SJR3t2]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

They aren't banned for life.  It seems to me the Church's position is pro family.  The Church will always teach the doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

They are banned while they are children, and only are not banned if they renounce their parents, not very family oriented if you ask me.

[SJR3t2]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

They aren't banned for life.  It seems to me the Church's position is pro family.  The Church will always teach the doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

They are banned while they are children, and only are not banned if they renounce their parents, not very family oriented if you ask me.

[MormonMason]

10 hours ago, SJR3t2 said:

They are banned while they are children, and only are not banned if they renounce their parents, not very family oriented if you ask me.

It's contrary to God's definition of marriage and Jesus's reiteration thereof.  If people hold to and actively support a concept of marriage contrary to the definition God gives, perhaps it would be better for them that they should not be members of the Church.  It is the activism that has led up to this.  If it continues, more pervasive changes and policies will come forth.  When the Book of Abraham was under attack for the first time, rather than reject the book as expected the Church canonized it.  Just sayin'.

Edited April 28, 2018 by MormonMason

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, SJR3t2 said:

They are banned while they are children, and only are not banned if they renounce their parents, not very family oriented if you ask me.

That is exactly my point.  They wouldn't be asked to renounce their parents any more than parents are asked to renounce their gay child, whom they love.  That is not how the Gospel of Christ works.  They, however, will someday need to renounce the doctrine of gay marriage.  That would be hard to do as a child.  Don't baptise children where the things they are taught in Church pit them against their parents gay life choice, and work against family love and support.  THAT is what is not family oriented.  Allow the child to grow in faith, attend Church if they choose, and get baptized at age 18 if they are converted.   The child's family carries much influence.  Baptism makes anyone more accountable.  I believe the Church didn't make that policy lightly.  They had, imo, experience with many children of gay parents who fared worse with baptism as a youth than if they had postponed baptism until they were more mature.  Where much is given, much is expected.  Committing to baptism means committing to sustaining the doctrines of the Church.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Meerkat

[california boy]

23 hours ago, Meerkat said:

They aren't banned for life.  It seems to me the Church's position is pro family.  The Church will always teach the doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

Quote

That is exactly my point.  They wouldn't be asked to renounce their parents any more than parents are asked to renounce their gay child, whom they love.  That is not how the Gospel of Christ works.  They, however, will someday need to renounce the doctrine of gay marriage.  That would be hard to do as a child.  Don't baptise children where the things they are taught in Church pit them against their parents gay life choice, and work against family love and support.  THAT is what is not family oriented.  Allow the child to grow in faith, attend Church if they choose, and get baptized at age 18 if they are converted.   The child's family carries much influence.  Baptism makes anyone more accountable.  I believe the Church didn't make that policy lightly.  They had, imo, experience with many children of gay parents who fared worse with baptism as a youth than if they had postponed baptism until they were more mature.  Where much is given, much is expected.  Committing to baptism means committing to sustaining the doctrines of the Church.

It is the same reason the church bans children from being baptized where the parents have never been married.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

Oh wait. "those children" are allowed to be baptized when they turn 8.  Never mind.

Can the children of a gay couple who is not married be baptized when they turn 8?  Maybe the mistake these gay families are making is that they value marriage.  

Edited April 29, 2018 by california boy

[MormonMason]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865640934/Elder-Christofferson-explains-updated-LDS-Church-policies-on-same-sex-marriage-and-children.amp

This sounds reasonable enough to me.  Children can be emotionally fragile.  I also can see the policy nip in the bud activism and apostasy from within.  God defined marriage and his Son Jesus Christ reiterated the same.  Modern revelation continued same as defining it before God as between man and woman, male and female, the precise words used by the God of both ancient and modern-day scripture, as further reinforced by the Proclamation on the Family.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

It is the same reason the church bans children from being baptized where the parents have never been married.  Baptizing a child in a same sex household sets them up for conflict.  Let their brain develop more, then make an  informed decision when an adult.

Oh wait. "those children" are allowed to be baptized when they turn 8.  Never mind.

Same reason the Church bans children from polygamous families...because for the parents' lives to be in line with the Gospel as taught in LDS doctrine, their contracted marriage relationship as a couple must be destroyed.

[california boy]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Same reason the Church bans children from polygamous families...because for the parents' lives to be in line with the Gospel as taught in LDS doctrine, their contracted marriage relationship as a couple must be destroyed.

So can the children of a gay couple that isn't married get baptized?  I am curious how the church treats those situations.

[LittleNipper]

As a Christian, who is an outsider to the Mormon beliefs, I can tell you that as an Independent, Fundamentalist, Bible Believing, Baptist, it makes no difference who the parents are and what they have done or are doing. An individual child can be immersed as long as that individual profess that he or she has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Such can then become an actual member of our church. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by LittleNipper

[rodheadlee]

I see I haven't missed anything. Carry on.

[Jeanne]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Same reason the Church bans children from polygamous families...because for the parents' lives to be in line with the Gospel as taught in LDS doctrine, their contracted marriage relationship as a couple must be destroyed.

But what about that one lost sheep as Jesus says....the offspring..this isn't right for children of gays or polygamists..I am so surprised that so many think these children do not matter in your gospel and beliefs.

[MormonMason]

8 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

As a Christian, who is an outsider to the Mormon beliefs, I can tell you that as an Independent, Fundamentalist, Bible Believing, Baptist, it makes no difference who the parents are and what they have done or are doing. An individual child can be immersed as long as that individual profess that he or she has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Such can then become an actual member of our church. 

So, you prefer not to protect young children from emotional and family turmoil? Good to know what churches to avoid.  Thanks.  Or have you already abandoned the teachings of Christ regarding marriage and are performing gay marriages on request in your church?

Edited April 29, 2018 by MormonMason

[Calm]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

So can the children of a gay couple that isn't married get baptized?  I am curious how the church treats those situations.

Don't have a clue.

I would hope not if the couple considered themselves a family that intended to stay together.  That would be comparable imo to polygamous families as they are not legally married to one another, but only consider themselves married and thus a family.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

12 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

As a Christian, who is an outsider to the Mormon beliefs, I can tell you that as an Independent, Fundamentalist, Bible Believing, Baptist, it makes no difference who the parents are and what they have done or are doing. An individual child can be immersed as long as that individual profess that he or she has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Such can then become an actual member of our church. 

What if parents don't give permission, will you still baptize a minor?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

But what about that one lost sheep as Jesus says....the offspring..this isn't right for children of gays or polygamists..I am so surprised that so many think these children do not matter in your gospel and beliefs.

That is not the interpretation I am putting on it.  It seems to me to put the children first and foremost by not forcing them at a young and dependent age to choose between making a covenant to a faith that does not recognize their parents' marriage(s) as eternal and in fact labels it(them) sinful and their love for their parents and their need to feel safe and secure (which generally means they want their parents to stay together and thus the family intact).

Edited April 29, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is not the interpretation I am putting on it.  It seems to me to put the children first and foremost by not forcing them at a young and dependent age to choose between making a covenant to a faith that does not recognize their parents' marriage(s) as eternal and in fact labels it(them) sinful and their love for their parents and their need to feel safe and secure (which generally means they want their parents to stay together and thus the family intact).

Thank you for clarifying. I do in a sense understand what you and the church mean by all of this.  But if the gospel is true...this may be there only chance to receive it.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for clarifying. I do in a sense understand what you and the church mean by all of this.  But if the gospel is true...this may be there only chance to receive it.

They can be taught it without receiving baptism until the age of adulthood.  No one is saying they can't be taught or attend church though it is recognized it may not be the best thing for many children to be given conflicting teachings (cognitive dissonance for children is something that we should consider as not that great, imo).

And it will not be their only chance to receive it even if there is no contact with the Church and baptism later on, since they along with all those others who lacked full chances to receive the gospel and participate in baptism will be able to receive all things in the next life.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

They can be taught it without receiving baptism until the age of adulthood.  No one is saying they can't be taught or attend church though it is recognized it may not be the best thing for many children to be given conflicting teachings (cognitive dissonance for children is something that we should consider as not that great, imo).

And it will not be their only chance to receive it even if there is no contact with the Church and baptism later on, since they along with all those others who lacked full chances to receive the gospel and participate in baptism will be able to receive all things in the next life.

The reality though..(IMO) is that by the age of 18..they will no longer care and will be passive about learning more about a church that somewhat disowned them..and their parents as well.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

The reality though..(IMO) is that by the age of 18..they will no longer care and will be passive about learning more about a church that somewhat disowned them..and their parents as well.

And that is probably the condition of the vast majority of people in mortality (they don't really care about a faith they don't know much about or were not involved in as a child), so thank goodness chances continue afterwards.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Calm

[LittleNipper]

Matthew 10:37

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.   What Jesus Himself said regarding love of HIM compared with love of family. I'm not saying families should not be considered. But I find most families who love their children would have no problem with them being baptized or attending Sunday School or church.

 

 

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

What if parents don't give permission, will you still baptize a minor?

We would most certainly speak to the child's parents. We believe that like the Lord's Supper ---- Immersion is an illustration and a remembrance. The child would have already received his baptism of the Holy Spirit and that is the one that counts.  This child would be told that we (my church) would be very happy to perform his Immersion when he comes of age if his parents  refused their consent sooner. However, I have never known of this happening. Parents are usually very happy that their child is even interested in spiritual things. Of course, the parents would be most welcome to attend all the proceedings. Everything is very open and aboveboard. There are no secrets or closed rituals regarding our Baptist church.  And no, we would never perform "gay" marriage nor knowingly allow a "gay" minister (meaning someone who practises deviate sex , including fornication, adultery, etc.) to remain in the pulpit.  He would be expelled. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Calm]

Thanks for the info.