Duncan Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I wasn’t proven wrong. What was wrong? My question asking for contemporary evidence? You are very confused. I thank you for the WW journal link, appreciate it. If there was contemporary evidence in the OP link, I must have missed it, I didn’t see it. And again, I never called it a false prophecy, nor was I even interested in calling it a false prophecy. I don’t really believe in prophecy in the first place, so I could care less about proving whether it’s true or false. I was just interested in the story and the contemporary evidence for it. Perhaps next time you could stay out of the assigning motives game. you didn't seem to believe that it happened when the evidence showed otherwise. if I was confused I wouldn't respond with your request for contemporary evidence and then give it to you Edited January 3, 2018 by Duncan
strappinglad Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 A couple of items. First, I find it interesting that cinepro would keep a hat in his front yard on the off chance he would need it for a lesson. Second, so many were anxious to show that Joseph used a stone in a hat to produce the BoM and they use Emma's statement with glee to verify it, but are silent about using the rest of her statement wherein she says he dictated " hour after hour " with nothing between them. Sure sounds like he made the whole thing up as he went along doesn't it ? NOT ! 3
cinepro Posted January 3, 2018 Author Posted January 3, 2018 3 hours ago, strappinglad said: Second, so many were anxious to show that Joseph used a stone in a hat to produce the BoM and they use Emma's statement with glee to verify it, but are silent about using the rest of her statement wherein she says he dictated " hour after hour " with nothing between them. Sure sounds like he made the whole thing up as he went along doesn't it ? NOT ! Did you look at the Power point I used (linked in the OP)? The quote from Emma includes the "hour after hour" comment. 2
snowflake Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 20 hours ago, cinepro said: A friend of mine teaches Gospel Doctrine in our ward, but asked me to substitute last Sunday (12/31). In counsel with the Sunday School President, we decided that since there wasn't any actual lesson in the manual for that week, that I should end our year-long study of "Church History" with a lesson that fills in some of the gaps, focusing on the Gospel Topics Essays. At the beginning of the lesson, I explained to the class that I was a substitute, there was no manual so I can't be accused of going "off manual", and I already had a calling in Scouts so I can't be punished. And away we went. I went for a mix of interesting trivia and "meat" from the Gospel Topics Essays. I used PowerPoint slides to present visual aids. "Gospel Doctrine - Lesson 47" 1. (Attention-Getter - Madam Pattirini) - Showed the picture and asked if anyone knew who it was. Lots of raised eyebrows when her real identity was revealed. 2. Gospel Topics Essays overview. 3. First Vision - Different Accounts. Excerpt from the 1832 account discussed. 4. Book of Mormon - Story of Alvin being "the right one", but dying. Joseph Smith sr. ad in local paper denying digging up Alvin's body. 5. Book of Mormon scribes. What happened to the original manuscript? 6. Book of Mormon translation method. Brought a hat and rock from my front yard as visual aids. 7. "Pop Quiz" - Showed the commonly used picture of Joseph and Oliver "translating." Class members easily noticed the numerous inaccuracies. 8. Then showed the picture of President Nelson touring the Harmony recreation of Joseph's cabin, including the hat on the table. 9. Trivia: Code names used in the D&C until 1981. 10. Trivia: Different names of the Church over time. 11. The Story of Vienna Jacques. 12. "The Plat of Zion" 13. Far West Temple Site - Prophecy about Apostles leaving on mission in 1839. 14. "Plural Marriage in the Church" essay. One older class member talked about how when they were growing up in the Church, "no one knew Joseph Smith practiced polygamy." One orthodox member offered her opinion that "it just doesn't matter at all to my salvation." Talked about Hyrum taking section 132 to Emma. Mentioned Joseph Smith being sealed to women with living LDS husbands (a few eyebrows went up). 15. (Planned to talk about the Council of 50, but ran out of time) 16. Ended with the story of the Steamship Saluda. 17. (Didn't have time to talk about the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham). The power point I used is attached. I had a lot of very positive feedback after the lesson! Lots of people saying "wow"; several asked for a copy of my notes so they could read the parts I skipped. It was definitely a fun way to end the year. I'll be the first to admit it would be impossible and inappropriate to teach like that every week, but once every four years sounds about right. Cinepro "Lesson 47" Powerpoint Nice power point presentation, well done! As I reviewed your work I couldn't help but think about the Reynold's essay and the recent "letter to my wife" essay as well. I always find it so interesting how people can look at the same information and come up with conclusions on the opposite side of the spectrum. Some LDS will say this information strengthens their testimony and others it destroys their faith. I appreciate you presenting this in what appears to be a straightforward and honest way!
Gray Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Do all LDS talks, classes, etc, have to end with a testimony? It is a uniquely LDS phenomenon for sure -- constantly saying that you know something is true. While such declarations have their time and place, sometimes it is also ok to let the truth speak for itself, surely. Honestly, to me the practice comes off as insecure and tends to undermine perception of confidence in the message. Or sometimes it sounds purely reflexive and unconscious. It doesn't have to be that way, but making it a standard part of all lessons and talks has made it that way. Edited January 3, 2018 by Gray 3
snowflake Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: I hope your lesson concluded with you bearing a most genuine, fervent and inspiring testimony of the spiritual witness you have received that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the restored Church of Christ and the one true and living Church on the face of the earth, that the Doctrine & Covenants is a heaven-inspired volume of modern scripture that you love and strive to obey, and that the Church is led today by true prophets, seers and revelators who act in their sacred callings by virtue of authentic priesthood power and authority they have received from God? I also hope that all throughout your lesson you were inspired by the Spirit to present the information you gathered in a manner deliberately designed to help confirm and build the.class member’s testimonies of the Church. Please tell me that these things are so? But if not, why not? I've always found the best teachers encourage one to look at the evidence from many different angles and perspectives. They will present different ideas about the evidence and why the teachers have the different ideas about the evidence, and then encourage the student to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions based on the evidence and different ways to look at it. Above you come off as though there is only one way to look at these issues and evidence which is simply not the case. Regardless of your personal view many others look at it differently.
Senator Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 11 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: "overbearing zealots"
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, snowflake said: I've always found the best teachers encourage one to look at the evidence from many different angles and perspectives. They will present different ideas about the evidence and why the teachers have the different ideas about the evidence, and then encourage the student to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions based on the evidence and different ways to look at it. Above you come off as though there is only one way to look at these issues and evidence which is simply not the case. Regardless of your personal view many others look at it differently. (I say the following in a spirit of kindness and humility) Based on what I’ve read in your many posts, unless I am mistaken you don't believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. My post is geared toward those who are members of the LDS Church and offered as a word of warning to remind them that the role testimony-of bearing in the Church is a critically important and indispensable principle of our religion, one that cannot be minimized nor ignored without the very real risk of being found unfaithful to one of the fundamental tenets of our religion. So unless you are a faithful member of the LDS Church, or are currently sincerely and seriously investigating the Church in order to determine whether or not it is true, my counsel is not aimed at you. Edited January 3, 2018 by Bobbieaware
snowflake Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: (I say the following in a spirit of kindness and humility) Based on what I’ve read in your many posts, unless I am mistaken you don't believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. My post is geared toward those who are members of the LDS Church and offered as a word of warning to remind them that the role testimony-bearing in the Church is a critically important, indispensable principle of our religion, one that cannot be minimized nor ignored without the very real risk of being found unfaithful to the one of the fundamental tenets of our religion. So unless you are a faithful member of the LDS Church or are currently sincerely and seriously investigating the Church in order to determine whether or not it is true, my counsel is not aimed at you. Fair enough, thank you. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 9 minutes ago, Senator said: The prophets of God have always been judged by nonbelievers as being overbearing zealots and that’s why so many of the them have been viciously persecuted and murdered. Ironically, the actual fanaticism and zealotry of the violent unbelievers all to often turns out to be far more pernicious and extreme than the perceived zealotry they claim to find in the prophets they condemn. 2
hope_for_things Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The prophets of God have always been judged by nonbelievers as being overbearing zealots and that’s why so many of the them have been viciously persecuted and murdered. Ironically, the actual fanaticism and zealotry of the violent unbelievers all to often turns out to be far more pernicious and extreme than the perceived zealotry they claim to find in the prophets they condemn. No hyperbole here. Yikes.... For those that don't think the formulaic testimony bearing is an essential part of Sunday school classes, look out. 2
snowflake Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The prophets of God have always been judged by nonbelievers as being overbearing zealots and that’s why so many of the them have been viciously persecuted and murdered. Ironically, the actual fanaticism and zealotry of the violent unbelievers all to often turns out to be far more pernicious and extreme than the perceived zealotry they claim to find in the prophets they condemn. I haven't seen any violent unbelievers condemning the LDS prophets. To be a prophet one would need to prophesy on occasion....haven't seen any of prophecies coming out of Salt Lake since Joseph.
Senator Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 14 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The prophets of God have always been judged by nonbelievers as being overbearing zealots and that’s why so many of the them have been viciously persecuted and murdered. Ironically, the actual fanaticism and zealotry of the violent unbelievers all to often turns out to be far more pernicious and extreme than the perceived zealotry they claim to find in the prophets they condemn. I'll bear testimony of something. It is the power of the teaching in the Gospel(and in the church) of the principles of charity, temperance, long suffering and brotherly kindness, that keep me coming back to the pews every week.
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: No hyperbole here. Yikes.... For those that don't think the formulaic testimony bearing is an essential part of Sunday school classes, look out. In consideration of the undeniable fact the lesson manuals all call for sincere and genuine testimony-bearing with each and every lesson taught, ignoring such recurrent and seriously-delivered counsel can only be considered to be an act of rebellion and/or prima facie evidence that the teacher doesn't have a genuine spiritual witness of the restored gospel. Remember, the Doctrine & Covenants solemnly warns us that if a member has not the Spirit he or she shall not teach. And an unwillingness or inability to bear sincere and heartfelt testimony of the Lord and his gospel is strong evidence an individual lacks a sufficient degree of that Spirit to effectively teach and edify the saints. You must surely be aware of the fact that the scriptures warn us against lukewarm, wishy washy attitudes toward defending the Lord and his kingdom.
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Senator said: I'll bear testimony of something. It is the power of the teaching in the Gospel(and in the church) of the principles of charity, temperance, long suffering and brotherly kindness, that keep me coming back to the pews every week. So it is the teachers’ strong testimonies of the glorious gospel principles of the pure love of Christ, temperance, long suffering and brotherly kindness that keep you coming back to Church each week. That’s very good and you effectively makes my point. The teachers who inspire you couldn’t teach with such convincing power without each of them possessing a genuine spiritual witness of the eternal importance of these indispensable gospel principles. Edited January 3, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Senator Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 9 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: So it is the teachers’ strong testimonies of the glorious gospel principles of the pure love of Christ, temperance, long suffering and brotherly kindness that keep you coming back to Church each week. That’s very good and you effectively makes my point. No. The truth of these things to me did not come by way of any teacher's spoken testimony. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 34 minutes ago, snowflake said: I haven't seen any violent unbelievers condemning the LDS prophets. To be a prophet one would need to prophesy on occasion....haven't seen any of prophecies coming out of Salt Lake since Joseph. You don’t perceive the strong spirit of prophecy that exists in the LDS Church because you are blind to it; I see it manifested constantly. You don’t see it because you have cut yourself off from the opportunity to receive the Spirit that might have otherwise revealed the reality of the presence of the spirit of prohecy to you.
hope_for_things Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 55 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: In consideration of the undeniable fact the lesson manuals all call for sincere and genuine testimony-bearing with each and every lesson taught, ignoring such recurrent and seriously-delivered counsel can only be considered to be an act of rebellion and/or prima facie evidence that the teacher doesn't have a genuine spiritual witness of the restored gospel. Remember, the Doctrine & Covenants solemnly warns us that if a member has not the Spirit he or she shall not teach. And an unwillingness or inability to bear sincere and heartfelt testimony of the Lord and his gospel is strong evidence an individual lacks a sufficient degree of that Spirit to effectively teach and edify the saints. You must surely be aware of the fact that the scriptures warn us against lukewarm, wishy washy attitudes toward defending the Lord and his kingdom. Its clear you have strong opinions on this topic, and that you want to characterize all disagreements with you in as uncharitable terms as possible. Unfortunately, its difficult to have a friendly discussion on a message board on those terms. 1
stemelbow Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: You must surely be aware of the fact that the scriptures warn us against lukewarm, wishy washy attitudes toward defending the Lord and his kingdom. The lukewarm reference in the scriptures is not about defending the Lord and his kingdom but about doing good works, like giving to the poor. Ah well, I think your tendency to paint another in an uncharitable way and then grandstand on misinterpreted scriptural support makes it difficult to discuss, as just said. It doesn't hurt to try, I guess, but it also suggests at some point there is no point.
snowflake Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 40 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: You don’t perceive the strong spirit of prophecy that exists in the LDS Church because you are blind to it; I see it manifested constantly. You don’t see it because you have cut yourself off from the opportunity to receive the Spirit that might have otherwise revealed the reality of the presence of the spirit of prohecy to you. Prophets in the OT are consistent with each other, they all support the same narrative of the coming Messiah, one God and the story of the people of Israel. LDS prophets contradict the OT prophets and other LDS prophets as well, but i'm sure your testimony blinds you from these truths. Again, any prophecies since Joseph? Any.....thus saith the lord prophecies from the LDS prophets?
Bobbieaware Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Senator said: No. The truth of these things to me did not come by way of any teacher's spoken testimony. If gaining spiritual strength and enlightenment through listening to the authentic testimonies of others isn’t a necessary and indispensable element of the gospel of Jesus Christ, why do you think itestimony-bearing is stressed so much in the Standard Works and General Conference addresses? You surely must be aware of the fact that the Book of Mormon is nothing more or less than a compilation of written testimonies born by several men of God? Whether spoken or written, authentic spiritual testimonies of the gospel and their convincing power are precisely the same thing. Have you ever followed through on Moroni’s promise, a prophet who assures his readers they can know the Book of Mormon is the word of God if they pray sincerely for a confirmatory personal revelation from God? If you have followed through and thereby gained that promised confirmatory spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon’s is the word of God, how does one go about gaining a spiritual witness of the book while simultaneously being left spiritually unmoved and unimpressed by the prophetic testimonies contained therein? Where and how does one draw the line? By the way, you’re the one who said your teachers teach with a power that keeps you coming back to Church. Is the power you speak of the power of the teachers’ living testimonies of God’s truth or simply human oratorical skill devoid of any perception of spiritual power? In other words, is gaining a testimony of the restored Gospel strictly something between you and God, or do the testimonies communicated to others by men and women of God play any beneficial role in the enlightening and strengthening of the saints? Edited January 3, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Senator Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: By the way, you’re the one who said your teachers teach with a power that keeps you coming back to Church. No I didn't. See my previous post. I think you are blowing this out of proportion with a large amount of preaching, all for the purpose of reprimanding cinepro for the lesson he gave. I don't think it's necessary. Edited January 3, 2018 by Senator 1
Gray Posted January 3, 2018 Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Prophets in the OT are consistent with each other, they all support the same narrative of the coming Messiah, one God and the story of the people of Israel. LDS prophets contradict the OT prophets and other LDS prophets as well, but i'm sure your testimony blinds you from these truths. Again, any prophecies since Joseph? Any.....thus saith the lord prophecies from the LDS prophets? I don't think OT prophets are totally consistent either. NT prophets probably even less so!
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