Polarization of Relgion

[clarkgoble]

Interesting paper out on the polarization of religion in America rather than there being an European like secularization. 

I did a post on it at T&S,but I figured some of you might find it interesting to talk about here as well.

The thesis basically is that what's happening is that religion in America is losing the middle ground. That means moderates in high intensity religions like Mormonism or Evangelicalism are disappearing as well as the moderates who've made up most of mainline sects. This accounts for the rise of the Nones. There are lots of implications to this not the least of which is losing a lot of common ground in society. But it ends up being that secularization just isn't happening in quite the same way as in Europe. Further while high intensity religion might shift around a bit, it's just not decreasing in relative numbers.

Effectively religion is taking the same path that politics did.

Edited December 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[carbon dioxide]

12 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Interesting paper out on the polarization of religion in America rather than there being an European like secularization. 

I did a post on it at T&S,but I figured some of you might find it interesting to talk about here as well.

The thesis basically is that what's happening is that religion in America is losing the middle ground. That means moderates in high intensity religions like Mormonism or Evangelicalism are disappearing as well as the moderates who've made up most of mainline sects. This accounts for the rise of the Nones. There are lots of implications to this not the least of which is losing a lot of common ground in society. But it ends up being that secularization just isn't happening in quite the same way as in Europe. Further while high intensity religion might shift around a bit, it's just not decreasing in relative numbers.

Effectively religion is taking the same path that politics did.

I am not completely sure what a "moderate" is.  If it is referring to religious devotion or practice, probably not a good thing. Jesus said he rather people be hot or cold.  He spews out the lukewarm.  Moderates can be lukewarm.  I think in an LDS context, a moderate is probably a good candidate for the Terrestrial Kingdom. 

[rongo]

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Interesting paper out on the polarization of religion in America rather than there being an European like secularization. 

I did a post on it at T&S,but I figured some of you might find it interesting to talk about here as well.

The thesis basically is that what's happening is that religion in America is losing the middle ground. That means moderates in high intensity religions like Mormonism or Evangelicalism are disappearing as well as the moderates who've made up most of mainline sects. This accounts for the rise of the Nones. There are lots of implications to this not the least of which is losing a lot of common ground in society. But it ends up being that secularization just isn't happening in quite the same way as in Europe. Further while high intensity religion might shift around a bit, it's just not decreasing in relative numbers.

Effectively religion is taking the same path that politics did.

I think America differs from Europe in numbers in the different groups. There are still devout believers and seekers in Europe, and they stand out because of the contrast with the larger culture. They are attracted to Mormons, JWs, 7DA, Pentacostals, etc. Numerically, this is a much smaller group than the nominally Catholic and Lutheran, or the agnostics/atheists/ambivalent.

I think the momentum is trending towards this in America, but it is nowhere near Europe levels (yet). 

[clarkgoble]

51 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I am not completely sure what a "moderate" is.  If it is referring to religious devotion or practice, probably not a good thing. Jesus said he rather people be hot or cold.  He spews out the lukewarm.  Moderates can be lukewarm.  I think in an LDS context, a moderate is probably a good candidate for the Terrestrial Kingdom. 

You probably want to read the original paper rather than the Science News summary. They're defining it in terms of self-identified religious intensity. So it's not really about belief-content but how fervently one practices ones religion.

46 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think America differs from Europe in numbers in the different groups. There are still devout believers and seekers in Europe, and they stand out because of the contrast with the larger culture. They are attracted to Mormons, JWs, 7DA, Pentacostals, etc. Numerically, this is a much smaller group than the nominally Catholic and Lutheran, or the agnostics/atheists/ambivalent.

I think the momentum is trending towards this in America, but it is nowhere near Europe levels (yet). 

The paper argues pretty convincingly that the group of high intensity believers are fairly large. Somewhere around or above 36%. Considering that moderates are still present - and in relatively high numbers still - that 36% is staggeringly large. If you go to the original paper they do some European comparisons and the US is 2 - 4x what European levels are at depending upon what marker you look at. What's even more interesting is that for some markers, like praying more than once a day, the United States is becoming more not less intensely religious as compared with the 90's.

I think one could well argue that over ⅓ of the US is intensely religious and arguably becoming more not less religious. Of those moderately religious many are becoming less religious. Now the big question of course are the 18-30 year old demographic. We know they're switching to Nones at high rates. Further we know they've been alienated from conservative politics even before the rise of Trump. So it'll be interesting to see once the inevitable backlash against Trump gains strength among conservatives broadly whether those trends change.

Edited December 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[rongo]

It is an intriguing thought that the rise of the Nones has come from the ranks of the moderates. I think that has merit. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

It is an intriguing thought that the rise of the Nones has come from the ranks of the moderates. I think that has merit. 

How are you defining "moderates"?  In the same way as the study?

"1 Religiosity, or levels of religiousness, can be measured in a number of different ways, usually with measures of belonging (e.g., strength of affiliation) and behaving (e.g., frequency of religious service attendance), which clearly measure levels of religiousness. Much research also treats belief (e.g., belief in literalism) as an element of religiousness, but beliefs are typically better understood as measures of types rather than levels of religiousness. In this study we focus on what we call intense religion, which we consider to be both a level (the highest levels of commitment and practice) and type (sectarian and literalist) of religion "

Measures of high, moderate or low intensity used are for example frequency of prayer (increase or stay the same for those who pray multiple times a day or who pray less than once a week, decrease for those who pray at least once a week, but no more than once a day) and attendance at church (increasing for those attending more than once a week, decrease for those attending weekly...which would be the moderates, can't remember if same or decrease for less than once a week or low intensity).

Edited December 15, 2017 by Calm

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Interesting paper out on the polarization of religion in America rather than there being an European like secularization. 

I did a post on it at T&S,but I figured some of you might find it interesting to talk about here as well.

The thesis basically is that what's happening is that religion in America is losing the middle ground. That means moderates in high intensity religions like Mormonism or Evangelicalism are disappearing as well as the moderates who've made up most of mainline sects. This accounts for the rise of the Nones. There are lots of implications to this not the least of which is losing a lot of common ground in society. But it ends up being that secularization just isn't happening in quite the same way as in Europe. Further while high intensity religion might shift around a bit, it's just not decreasing in relative numbers.

Effectively religion is taking the same path that politics did.

I don't think it has anything to do with politics, it is replaced by skepticism. Which is inevitable...I mean...how long people are going to wait to see promises fulfilled? 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Interesting paper out on the polarization of religion in America rather than there being an European like secularization. 

I did a post on it at T&S,but I figured some of you might find it interesting to talk about here as well.

The thesis basically is that what's happening is that religion in America is losing the middle ground. That means moderates in high intensity religions like Mormonism or Evangelicalism are disappearing as well as the moderates who've made up most of mainline sects. This accounts for the rise of the Nones. There are lots of implications to this not the least of which is losing a lot of common ground in society. But it ends up being that secularization just isn't happening in quite the same way as in Europe. Further while high intensity religion might shift around a bit, it's just not decreasing in relative numbers.

Effectively religion is taking the same path that politics did.

The significant difference is that the nones don't have many children, and so are doomed to diminish as the percent of the overall population, while intensely religious people are increasing in numbers and are increasing as the percent of the overall population.  In the long haul, in America, religion will survive.

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 hours ago, rongo said:

It is an intriguing thought that the rise of the Nones has come from the ranks of the moderates. I think that has merit. 

I'm not at all surprised. In the past three years, I have personally heard both our area president (twice) and Elder Bednar warn us that only those who are fully engaged in the work of salvation will have the knowledge borne of personal experience that is necessary to survive these times. As I've written in this forum multiple times, including in the past couple of weeks, those who are so engaged in my ward are going from strength to strength. At church or wherever we meet up, they are bursting with things they want to share. Those who are 'moderate' in their commitments are fading before my eyes.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I mean...how long people are going to wait to see promises fulfilled? 

For many, this is a daily occurrence.

[Atheist Mormon]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For many, this is a daily occurrence.

It is called "coincidence" or "Law of averages"......I was your average toolpusher 20 years ago, every morning I woke up first thing up I'd think how much I hated my life.....Today I run a healthy business, when I return to Utah, I have a place to stay in Park City with an FJ waiting in my garage....I realize everyday what I have, including my health can go down the drains....None of my accomplishments came through prayer or obedience to a supernatural. 

To me the saddest part of this "belief" process is waste of time and hope.....The only person anyone should have faith is "himself" first. Other than that I enjoy holidays & Christmas as much as anybody. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Atheist Mormon

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

It is called "coincidence" or "Law of averages"...

Would you like to clarify what exactly the antecedent of it is here?

Quote

Today I run a healthy business, when I return to Utah, I have a place to stay in Park City with an FJ waiting in my garage...

I'm genuinely happy that you have what you value most.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Would you like to clarify what exactly the antecedent of it is here?

I'm genuinely happy that you have what you value most.

#1Iasked "how long people are going to wait to see promises fulfilled? " you answered ; "For many, this is a daily occurrence" , I didn't buy it. implying; "It is called "coincidence" or "Law of averages"... Pray, believe.....or not believe stuff happens to everyone equally. And yes, I value the money much more than I'd ever value "faith or prayer". Because I can make a visible difference with money by giving away, it happens, especially on Christmas.

[carbon dioxide]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't think it has anything to do with politics, it is replaced by skepticism. Which is inevitable...I mean...how long people are going to wait to see promises fulfilled? 

What kind of promises?

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not at all surprised. In the past three years, I have personally heard both our area president (twice) and Elder Bednar warn us that only those who are fully engaged in the work of salvation will have the knowledge borne of personal experience that is necessary to survive these times. As I've written in this forum multiple times, including in the past couple of weeks, those who are so engaged in my ward are going from strength to strength. At church or wherever we meet up, they are bursting with things they want to share. Those who are 'moderate' in their commitments are fading before my eyes.

Pretty much this. Those who are not engaged will fall eventually unless (of course) they commit.

I find it cute when they try to portray their approach as an equally valid one: "Step aside all you martrys, those who sacrifice, those dedicated to faith! Stan the occasional pew warmer is the true strength of the Church."

Edited December 17, 2017 by The Nehor

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

"Step aside all you martrys, those who sacrifice, those dedicated to faith! Stan the occasional pew warmer is the true strength of the Church."

Some of our least engaged are regular pew warmers. I don't know how long that will last, but they're active by the outward measurement of attendance.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Some of our least engaged are regular pew warmers. I don't know how long that will last, but they're active by the outward measurement of attendance.

Many active members are unengaged in the work.

[Atheist Mormon]

13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

What kind of promises?

You tell me...You said it was daily occurence.

[clarkgoble]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The significant difference is that the nones don't have many children, and so are doomed to diminish as the percent of the overall population, while intensely religious people are increasing in numbers and are increasing as the percent of the overall population.  In the long haul, in America, religion will survive.

The question is the retention rate of families with intense religion. Right now birth rate and retention are high enough to maintain relative population. Question is whether that persists with time.

Edited December 17, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Exiled]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:11 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not at all surprised. In the past three years, I have personally heard both our area president (twice) and Elder Bednar warn us that only those who are fully engaged in the work of salvation will have the knowledge borne of personal experience that is necessary to survive these times. As I've written in this forum multiple times, including in the past couple of weeks, those who are so engaged in my ward are going from strength to strength. At church or wherever we meet up, they are bursting with things they want to share. Those who are 'moderate' in their commitments are fading before my eyes.

How do you quantify this "going from strength to strength?" Is it merely the stories they tell you? It seems to me that it is nearly impossible to tell who is strong and who is weak as outward signs can be faked. Sure it could be as you say, but I was teaching gospel doctrine at the time when I was really questioning. During that time, I was bearing my testimony, as before, and having members come up to me afterward to thank me for the spiritual lesson. Even so, the "spirit" was really emotional sadness being expressed due to what I was realizing.

[Storm Rider]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 2:22 PM, Exiled said:

How do you quantify this "going from strength to strength?" Is it merely the stories they tell you? It seems to me that it is nearly impossible to tell who is strong and who is weak as outward signs can be faked. Sure it could be as you say, but I was teaching gospel doctrine at the time when I was really questioning. During that time, I was bearing my testimony, as before, and having members come up to me afterward to thank me for the spiritual lesson. Even so, the "spirit" was really emotional sadness being expressed due to what I was realizing.

I think we might agree on many things, but the clarification that is needed is to understand that the Word is the Spirit and we are but imperfect vessels used to discuss it, present it, and share it.  When you were speaking with little faith the Spirit of what you said could be felt because of its truth regardless of your faith or testimony. 

If we needed to be perfectly faithful vessels in order to share the Spirit nothing would ever get done.  We all fall far short of the holiness of God. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Storm Rider

[Exiled]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I think we might agree on many things, but the clarification that is needed is to understand is that the Word is the Spirit and we are but imperfect vessels used to discuss it, present it, and share it.  When you were speaking with little faith the Spirit of what you said could be felt because of its truth regardless of your faith or testimony. 

If we needed to be perfectly faithful vessels in order to share the Spirit nothing would ever get done.  We all fall far short of the holiness of God. 

My point was that it is impossible to tell where someone is on the faith continuum because people may not be honest or just going through the motions.  So, how can one know how strong the membership truly is at any given point?  Also, some people retrench to a seemingly position of strength in a religion when faced with contrary evidence, but then break to non-belief.  Even so, sometimes a strong outward faith exhibition is probably that. 

[clarkgoble]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't think it has anything to do with politics, it is replaced by skepticism. Which is inevitable...I mean...how long people are going to wait to see promises fulfilled? 

I'm not sure it's skepticism given that even among the Nones most believe in God. It's more religion they don't care for. If it were skepticism we'd expect most to become agnostic or atheists. While there's an increase in atheists and agnostics they still make up a pretty small group.

Edited December 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not sure it's skepticism given that even among the Nones most believe in God. It's more religion they don't care for. If it were skepticism we'd expect most to become agnostic or atheists. While there's an increase in atheists and agnostics they still make up a pretty small group.

They don't make a small group, they are the quitest group....Very few advertises as atheist...

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, Exiled said:

My point was that it is impossible to tell where someone is on the faith continuum because people may not be honest or just going through the motions.  So, how can one know how strong the membership truly is at any given point?  Also, some people retrench to a seemingly position of strength in a religion when faced with contrary evidence, but then break to non-belief.  Even so, sometimes a strong outward faith exhibition is probably that. 

I agree that we really cannot reliably tell the degree of faith of another person.  We can ask, but that does not mean that we will obtain a complete understanding of their faith or lack of it.  More importantly, I am not sure it is a valid question of another.  As humans we struggle; always.  Our position on this earth is to be in the midst of choosing  between right and wrong.  Sometimes we wisely choose the good path and at other times we choose a path that leads to unhappiness and disquiet. 

I don't even think we are capable of always knowing if the path of another is right or wrong.  The old saying that the Lord moves in mysterious ways is reliable even today.