Adam-God and Idolatry

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

I don't consider Adam, Isaac Jacob or Abraham gods since only ONE GOD exists:

That's a strange thing to say considering your initial response to me here:

Quote

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are gods in Mormon canon why not Adam ?

So, it is not your argument that Adam is our Heavenly Father?

[Josh Khinder]

Just now, pogi said:

That's a strange thing to say considering your initial response to me here:

So, it is not your argument that Adam is our Heavenly Father?

Correct , Adam is like us a human being and will never be a God 

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

 

Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Correct , Adam is like us a human being and will never be a God 

So what do you have to say about the original post in this thread?  Your trinitarian argument seems to be besides the point of this thread.

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

The problem with the three gods is that both the Book of Mormon and Bible  teach ONE GOD not "3"

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

 

Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,   without end. Amen.

 

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God,  to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

 

 

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God,  in a state of happiness which hath no end.

 

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God.  Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

 

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

President Charles W Penrose agrees 

Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fullness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

Oh gosh.

Read my previous posts until it sinks in.   I am right- send me money.

Figure it out for yourself.

And trust me- I can read black and white I don't need color and huge print.   It looks like you are writing with crayons.  Doesn't help your case

Edited December 20, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

So what do you have to say about the original post in this thread?  Your trinitarian argument seems to be besides the point of this thread.

As usual, linguistic confusion.

Where is Wittgenstein when you need him?? 

 

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Correct , Adam is like us a human being and will never be a God 

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

 

Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

So are you a traditional Christian come to set us Mormons in order?
Or are you a Mormon with an unorthodox belief concerning exaltation?

Your statement that men cannot become Gods pretty much limits you to one of those categories.

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So are you a traditional Christian come to set us Mormons in order?
Or are you a Mormon with an unorthodox belief concerning exaltation?

Your statement that men cannot become Gods pretty much limits you to one of those categories.

I am pretty sure it is the first option, considering his participation in other threads. 

[Josh Khinder]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am pretty sure it is the first option, considering his participation in other threads. 

What if I just agree with the teachings of the Book of Mormon concerning the Godhead and person and nature of my LORD and GOD "JESUS"

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

 3 Nephi 19:

 18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

 2 Nephi 10:3

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

 

[Josh Khinder]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So are you a traditional Christian come to set us Mormons in order?
Or are you a Mormon with an unorthodox belief concerning exaltation?

Your statement that men cannot become Gods pretty much limits you to one of those categories.

Don't believe in exaltation since the Bible, Book of Mormon and Book of Moses are clear no gods ever from the past , present or future . The Book of Mormon is basically founded by the Creeds of the 4th and 5th century, So if the Book of Mormon is correct so is traditional Christianity . Can anyone produce a teaching from the Book of Mormon that disagrees with the early Creeds ?

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhhhhh.....no.

Uuhhhhhh yes unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

What if I just agree with the teachings of the Book of Mormon concerning the Godhead and person and nature of my LORD and GOD "JESUS"

In other words, yes, you are a traditional Christian come to set us Mormons straight.

If you accept the Book of Mormon as authoritative doctrine of God (which you obviously don't), then you also accept Joseph Smith and his revelations as a prophet of God.  Including those passages from the D&C that you have conveniently offered me:

Quote

 

Doctrine and Covenants section 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

You don't understand our doctrine and therefore cannot understand what you read in the BoM, so please don't pretend like your faulty interpretation of our scripture is worth beans. 

[Josh Khinder]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

In other words, yes, you are a traditional Christian come to set us Mormons straight.

If you accept the Book of Mormon as authoritative doctrine of God (which you obviously don't), then you also accept Joseph Smith and his revelations as a prophet of God.  Including those passages from the D&C that you have conveniently offered me:

You don't understand our doctrine and therefore cannot understand what you read in the BoM, so please don't pretend like your faulty interpretation of our scripture is worth beans. 

As I see it the Book of Mormon contradicts the Godhead Joseph Smith espoused and the Jesus Joseph Smith taught, no where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus was the first born spirit child of God the Father and our elder brother . 

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

 

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

 

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

 

 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

As I see it the Book of Mormon contradicts the Godhead Joseph Smith espoused and the Jesus Joseph Smith taught, no where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus was the first born spirit child of God the Father and our elder brother . 

I would agree with you, that is as YOU see it.  Please stick to the topic at hand or leave. I am not willing to waste my time with a troll. 

[Josh Khinder]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

I would agree with you, that is as YOU see it.  Please stick to the topic at hand or leave. I am not willing to waste my time with a troll. 

Troll and sock puppet I see your beyond the rules of these forum 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Josh Khinder said:

Troll and sock puppet I see your beyond the rules of these forum 

You are derailing Pogi's thread.  That is against the rules of this forum.
The topic of this thread is whether Adam-God constitutes idolatry.
If you would like to start a thread on Trinitarian concepts in the Book of Mormon get to 25 posts and go right ahead.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Troll and sock puppet I see your beyond the rules of these forum 

I stand corrected.  You are not the sock puppet that I thought you were. I sense more of a sent of troll scat.  I see that you are above the rules too, with your derails and net nannying.

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by pogi

[Meerkat]

9 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus is our spiritual sibling and yes Jesus is a member of the ONE GOD according to four witnesses in the Book of Mormon

"15 ¶ The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
            16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
            17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

Ezekiel 37:15-17 speaking of the Bible and the Book of Mormon (and possibly other scriptures revealed through prophets like Ezekiel and Joseph Smith.)  We don't separate them.  They support each other.

This is what the Bible says: "21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
            22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:..." Genesis 3:21-22

I don't doubt you may have another way of reading these scriptures.  That's okay.  You can believe in whatever you like.  It's your right and your path.  These scriptures support what I believe is true, in my opinion.  They allude to a plurality of gods, in my opinion.  I'm very comfortable with most teachings of the Church, including the Godhead.  And I believe you have the same privilege to worship as your conscience dictates.  Probably like me, your style comes off as a little abrasive sometimes.  I'm not sure it's as persuasive as you may want it to be.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Meerkat

[co-eternal]

On 12/18/2017 at 8:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

Think about that.  What could anyone say that might cause those present to actually kill their prophet?

Yeah, just saying that Adam is the father of our spirits and the physical father of Christ  raises quite a bit of anger, animosity, contempt, ...

Quote

How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery? (Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873)

 

I don't think it would take much more.

[Meerkat]

On 12/18/2017 at 11:18 PM, The Nehor said:

I do not share my understanding of Adam-God and some of what I suspect exaltation involves because I suspect I would be accused of blasphemy if I did so. I consider it fun and possibly even worthwhile. It might even be vital to some saints making it through this life but it is not a part of the general gospel all must heed. And there is no elite status in being on that path.

This part of your excellent post resonates with me.  I'm pretty simple minded and feel Christ speaks to me on a simple level.  I believe that's how God intended it for probably most of us.  We are also encouraged to seek out of the best books.  Your comment reminded me of this.  He's talking about the God I worship. This the last stanza of "The Things That Are More Excellent" by Sir William Watson:

In faultless rhythm the ocean rolls,

A rapturous silence thrills the skies;

And on this earth are lovely souls,

That softly look with aidful eyes.

Though dark, O God, Thy course and track,

I think Thou must at least have meant

That nought which lives should wholly lack

The things that are more excellent.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Meerkat

[Josh Khinder]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

"15 ¶ The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
            16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
            17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

Ezekiel 37:15-17 speaking of the Bible and the Book of Mormon (and possibly other scriptures revealed through prophets like Ezekiel and Joseph Smith.)  We don't separate them.  They support each other.

This is what the Bible says: "21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
            22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:..." Genesis 3:21-22

I don't doubt you may have another way of reading these scriptures.  That's okay.  You can believe in whatever you like.  It's your right and your path.  These scriptures support what I believe is true, in my opinion.  They allude to a plurality of gods, in my opinion.  I'm very comfortable with most teachings of the Church, including the Godhead.  And I believe you have the same privilege to worship as your conscience dictates.  Probably like me, your style comes off as a little abrasive sometimes.  I'm not sure it's as persuasive as you may want it to be.

This song comes right of the Book of Mormon 

 

 

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

This song comes right of the Book of Mormon 

Yes, and the Bible teaches the same doctrine.  I find no difficulty reconciling those thoughts and 1 John 3:1-3 which states:

"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
            2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
            3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

So you see there is support for the idea that we can become like Jesus, perfect in every way. (Words from a Primary song.)  It may mean something different to you, and that's between you and God.  I don't aspire to godhood.  But I do want to do what He wants me to do.  In fact, you probably do too.  That probably translates to you loving God and your fellow beings to the best of your ability.  I think that's all either one of us are expected to do.

My Mormon beliefs do not diminish Jesus.  They exalt Him, and his name.  I'm not sure I follow your point.  Perhaps it is that you think I should ignore the scriptures in the Bible and modern day revelation that clearly state we should strive to become like Him and greater things than He did would we do once He was ressurrected.  Maybe you believe the Nicene or Apostles Creed and think we should too.  The LDS Church is light on what we are required to believe because so much is a matter of faith.  There are no real creeds other than "Whatever is virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after those things."  And we gain great joy from doing so.  You aren't trying to diminish our joy, are you?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Meerkat

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, co-eternal said:

Yeah, just saying that Adam is the father of our spirits and the physical father of Christ  raises quite a bit of anger, animosity, contempt, ...

 

I don't think it would take much more.

Not what I was saying at all.  It wasn't addressed to you.

[co-eternal]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Not what I was saying at all.  It wasn't addressed to you.

Are you saying that I can't respond unless something is addressed to me?

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, co-eternal said:

Are you saying that I can't respond unless something is addressed to me?

You can do anything  you like but your comment was a non-sequitur.  If you want to make non-sequiturs be my guest.  

What time is it in Paris?

Blue.

It was a specific comment to an individual deliberately written to not be understandable to anyone but her regarding a previous discussion

 I don't know where you get these comments-  I never said you could not respond, just that you did not understand the point I was making.  Think logically.

Edited December 22, 2017 by mfbukowski

[co-eternal]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You can do anything  you like but your comment was a non-sequitur.  If you want to make non-sequiturs be my guest.  

What time is it in Paris?

Blue.

It was a specific comment to an individual deliberately written to not be understandable to anyone but her regarding a previous discussion

 I don't know where you get these comments-  I never said you could not respond, just that you did not understand the point I was making.  Think logically.

On 12/18/2017 at 8:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

Think about that.  What could anyone say that might cause those present to actually kill their prophet?

Yeah, just saying that Adam is the father of our spirits and the physical father of Christ  raises quite a bit of anger, animosity, contempt, ...

Quote

 

I don't think it would take much more.

 

 

sequitur

Edited December 22, 2017 by co-eternal