An eyewitness account of Joseph Smith at Nauvoo

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

That's why an attention span is worth cultivating. Some things are open to change; others are not. And sometimes the lasting things are the most valuable.

They are certainly far more important than mere taste.

What is open to change and what is not, is all in the eye of the beholder.  There is evidence for change with respect to every doctrine, haven't found one yet that hasn't seen change, but I'm still open to trying that little experiment if someone can find a doctrine that hasn't changed.  Change is not a threat to my world view.  I guess if you consider change to be a threat, then you feel compelled to defend a paradigm that attacks the evidence and tries to harmonize obvious differences.  

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't think the Church is backing away from Joseph and the restoration.  They just spent a small fortune redesigning the Church History museum, purchasing the printer's manuscript for the Book of Mormon, and the Joseph Smith Papers project continues very publicly.

They may just want the first thing seen about the Church to be related to the Savior.  As it should be.

A  plethora of content about Joseph Smith is readily accessible on other Church-sponsored web sites.

Here for example, one can view in its entirety the latest motion picture depiction of the First Vision. It's the same one that is shown in a 240 degree panoramic theater in the new main-level exhibit at the Church History Museum.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

What is open to change and what is not, is all in the eye of the beholder.  There is evidence for change with respect to every doctrine, haven't found one yet that hasn't seen change, but I'm still open to trying that little experiment if someone can find a doctrine that hasn't changed.  Change is not a threat to my world view.  I guess if you consider change to be a threat, then you feel compelled to defend a paradigm that attacks the evidence and tries to harmonize obvious differences.  

I know of no changes in doctrine relating to the atonement since the foundation of the Church.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his atonement and our need for repentance have remained unchanged as far as I know.

But yes, in general I agree with you that a very large amount of the restored gospel has been changed and adjusted, although mostly it was just added upon.  It is the removals that bother me more.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A  plethora of content about Joseph Smith is readily accessible on other Church-sponsored web sites.

Here for example, one can view in its entirety the latest motion picture depiction of the First Vision. It's the same one that is shown in a 240 degree panoramic theater in the new main-level exhibit at the Church History Museum.

 

Also, the Church has the website Josephsmith.net (josephsmith.org redirects you there).  It would be redundant and a waste of money to have the same materials on more than one site, imo.

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

What is open to change and what is not, is all in the eye of the beholder.  There is evidence for change with respect to every doctrine, haven't found one yet that hasn't seen change, but I'm still open to trying that little experiment if someone can find a doctrine that hasn't changed.  Change is not a threat to my world view.  I guess if you consider change to be a threat, then you feel compelled to defend a paradigm that attacks the evidence and tries to harmonize obvious differences.  

Don't give up your day job, HFT. As a mind-reader, you'd starve.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

Don't give up your day job, HFT. As a mind-reader, you'd starve.

Following the evidence is what I'm doing, not trying to read minds.  I think this accusation is more appropriately aimed at the change deniers.  

[kiwi57]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Following the evidence is what I'm doing, not trying to read minds.  I think this accusation is more appropriately aimed at the change deniers.  

You previously wrote:

"I guess if you consider change to be a threat, then you feel compelled to defend a paradigm that attacks the evidence and tries to harmonize obvious differences."

Whatever gave you the idea that I "consider change to be a threat?"

I simply pointed out that there are many things that can and do change, and some things that don't. Down is not up, black is not white, and two guys are not a married couple.

Note that I didn't assume that you "consider" the Church's unchanging position on the last point "to be a threat," or otherwise try to psychoanalyze you. I'm not that - rude.

[blueglass]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:02 PM, Calm said:

Also, the Church has the website Josephsmith.net (josephsmith.org redirects you there).  It would be redundant and a waste of money to have the same materials on more than one site, imo.

Ah, I like the section on this site from 2013 on "Joseph and Emma".  It's so sweet and adorable!   As Mitt Romney said at his speech at BYU in Nov 2014, back when he was a student at byu, "BYU cafeteria food was all they served at the cougar eat, and Emma was Joseph Smith's only wife!"  audience responds with cheering, and healthy waves of laughter envelope the marriott center.  

Did a quick search on mormon.org for josephsmith.net and here are the top 7 hits and a cool pop out to order my Free Holy Bible! , 

1)  5 Scripture Teachings on How to Be a Better Parent
2)  Four Lessons Christ Taught about Faith
3)  David Archuleta performs for “Meet the Mormons”
4)  The Career Advice I Discovered in My Scriptures
5)  Standing Together as Sisters. By Jamielyn Nye - blogger at I Heart Naptime
6)  My Family, Then and Now. By Melanie Day
7)  Hi I'm Greg _I'm a husband, father, grandfather, writer, musician, computer geek, and judo student- and I'm a Mormon.

[kiwi57]

17 hours ago, blueglass said:

Ah, I like the section on this site from 2013 on "Joseph and Emma".  It's so sweet and adorable!   As Mitt Romney said at his speech at BYU in Nov 2014, back when he was a student at byu, "BYU cafeteria food was all they served at the cougar eat, and Emma was Joseph Smith's only wife!"  audience responds with cheering, and healthy waves of laughter envelope the marriott center.  

Did a quick search on mormon.org for josephsmith.net and here are the top 7 hits and a cool pop out to order my Free Holy Bible! , 

1)  5 Scripture Teachings on How to Be a Better Parent
2)  Four Lessons Christ Taught about Faith
3)  David Archuleta performs for “Meet the Mormons”
4)  The Career Advice I Discovered in My Scriptures
5)  Standing Together as Sisters. By Jamielyn Nye - blogger at I Heart Naptime
6)  My Family, Then and Now. By Melanie Day
7)  Hi I'm Greg _I'm a husband, father, grandfather, writer, musician, computer geek, and judo student- and I'm a Mormon.

And do you have a point?

[Scott Lloyd]

This thread is more than a month old, but I’m bumping it in observance of the birthday anniversary yesterday of Joseph Smith Jr., the prophet of the Restoration. 

I honor him for having been anointed and blessed by Jesus Christ to open the last dispensation. Truly he “communed with Jehovah” in fulfillment of his divinely appointed mission. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This thread is more than a month old, but I’m bumping it in observance of the birthday anniversary yesterday of Joseph Smith Jr., the prophet of the Restoration. 

I honor him for having been anointed and blessed by Jesus Christ to open the last dispensation. Truly he “communed with Jehovah” in fulfillment of his divinely appointed mission. 

Amen.  I know Joseph Smith was called by God to be his mouthpiece.  He stands at the head of this final dispensation of God's gospel to this earth, fulfilling a premortal covenant.

All mankind in this day and age of the earth will be required to stand before him prior to being admitted to the presence of our Savior, and receiving their resurrection.

I honor and reverence his name and teachings and give thanks to God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ for sending the gospel and fulness of the priesthood through Joseph.

[Meerkat]

On 11/6/2017 at 10:07 PM, Thinking said:

I don't understand how hiring a couple to dig a ditch, then paying them with goods validates his "greatness."

He created a job for them out of nothing so they could preserve their character by working for what would otherwise be welfare.  Then he paid them generously with what they needed the job for, to buy food.  They volunteered that he paid them better than they estimated their labor was worth.  Joseph saw the value of work to the human soul.  That's what I would call greatness in any man.

When our missionaries were teaching my wife and me, they picked blackberries and asked us to make them (and us) a pie.  That small act had a spiritual component that helped convert us to the Gospel.  It also endeared us to them.  There is something about work and generosity that is sanctifying.

[why me]

Joseph Smith was a human being. He was a husband, a father and a brother to his siblings. As such, he was a human being who had to navigate his way through life. Plus, he was a prophet who led a church through success and failure. But he stayed true to his callings as husband, father, and leader. I don't think that Joseph was a happy man for most of his time as church leader. He had too much on his plate to be happy or even peaceful. And in the end, he died for being a church leader, as did his brother Hryum. Two brothers who gave their lives for what they believed.

The end result was a church that promotes good values in a hectic world. And who can fault with church values? Even church members who have left the church, many still keep the values and pass them on to their children without the church.

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, why me said:

Joseph Smith was a human being. He was a husband, a father and a brother to his siblings. As such, he was a human being who had to navigate his way through life. Plus, he was a prophet who led a church through success and failure. But he stayed true to his callings as husband, father, and leader. I don't think that Joseph was a happy man for most of his time as church leader. He had too much on his plate to be happy or even peaceful. 

That can be said of every prophet in every dispensation, probably even including the Savior himself.

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, why me said:

I don't think that Joseph was a happy man for most of his time as church leader. He had too much on his plate to be happy or even peaceful.

Yes, Joseph Smith experienced times of deep sorrow and grief.  But to a greater degree, I believe he was an optimist.  He had a cheerful disposition.  He said the following:

"Never be discouraged. If I were sunk in the lowest pits of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top."

Joseph lived and proclaimed the "Great Plan of Happiness." 

I believe William Clayton's great hymn, "Come, Come, Ye Saints" penned as the Saints were fleeing Nauvoo being driven from their homes by persecutions, reflects the Prophet Joseph Smith's outlook that also lifted the early Saints during their many years of adversities:

"Come, Come, ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear; But with joy wend your way.  Though hard to you this journey may appear, Grace shall be as your day..."

Joseph's prayer in Liberty Jail in D&C 121 does reflect discouragement as he cried out to God.  But imagine how he must have felt to hear the words "7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
            8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.
            9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands."

I believe he was happy.  This religion is a religion of happiness and optimism even in the face of deep and long lasting adversity.  We have the Holy Ghost that testifies to our hearts with feelings of comfort and joy. 

Isaiah described the faithful struggle thus: "3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified."

Even the statement of Job is filled with optimism, in my opinion: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in him..."

If any of us are to walk in the Savior's shoes, we will experience adversity.  But we will also experience much mercy, gratitude and joy with the Saints as we traverse this mortal sphere together, in my opinion.  I believe Brother Joseph was and is a happy man due to the part he played in the Restoration.  I thank the Lord for him.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Meerkat

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Yes, Joseph Smith experienced times of deep sorrow and grief.  But to a greater degree, I believe he was an optimist.  He had a cheerful disposition.  He said the following:

"Never be discouraged. If I were sunk in the lowest pits of Nova Scotia, with the Rocky Mountains piled on me, I would hang on, exercise faith, and keep up good courage, and I would come out on top."

Joseph lived and proclaimed the "Great Plan of Happiness." 

I believe William Clayton's great hymn, "Come, Come, Ye Saints" penned as the Saints were fleeing Nauvoo being driven from their homes by persecutions, reflects the Prophet Joseph Smith's outlook that also lifted the early Saints during their many years of adversities:

"Come, Come, ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear; But with joy wend your way.  Though hard to you this journey may appear, Grace shall be as your day..."

Joseph's prayer in Liberty Jail in D&C 121 does reflect discouragement as he cried out to God.  But imagine how he must have felt to hear the words "7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
            8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.
            9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands."

I believe he was happy.  This religion is a religion of happiness and optimism even in the face of deep and long lasting adversity.  We have the Holy Ghost that testifies to our hearts with feelings of comfort and joy. 

Isaiah described the faithful struggle thus: "3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified."

Even the statement of Job is filled with optimism, in my opinion: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in him..."

If any of us are to walk in the Savior's shoes, we will experience adversity.  But we will also experience much mercy, gratitude and joy with the Saints as we traverse this mortal sphere together, in my opinion.  I believe Brother Joseph was and is a happy man due to the part he played in the Restoration.  I thank the Lord for him.

There is, of course, this quotation from Joseph:

Quote

 “Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 255–56).

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Scott Lloyd