Temple as a Type

[Duncan]

Does anyone know any statements from the Brethren in effect that the Temple and all that is done therein is type or preparation of what will happen when we pass away? So, like the Temple here and now prepares us for when we actually come up into God's presence-not to demean the Temple but like when Dorothy et al came into the Wizard of Oz's chamber. Here it's kind of a dress rehearsal for what comes ahead in the next life, I seem to recall some statements to that effect but can't recall who said it.

[JLHPROF]

I'll have to look, but to me that isn't a fully correct doctrine.  Kind of an oversimplified view.
The temple is the story of an entire creation period, not just our return to God.
 

Best one I can come up with of the top of my head is:
"Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses 2:31)

Edited November 1, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Does anyone know any statements from the Brethren in effect that the Temple and all that is done therein is type or preparation of what will happen when we pass away? So, like the Temple here and now prepares us for when we actually come up into God's presence-not to demean the Temple but like when Dorothy et al came into the Wizard of Oz's chamber. Here it's kind of a dress rehearsal for what comes ahead in the next life, I seem to recall some statements to that effect but can't recall who said it.

LDS temple rites are not an intellectual encounter-group session, but rather an archaic component of a mystery religion.  The signs, oaths, and covenants are binding, of course, but are only part of a much greater, cosmic endeavor – to test us and to get us back to our Father in Heaven.  To do so, we play many roles on the stage of life, and each is essential.  In the process, we must lose our ego, learn humility, and serve others, just as our Savior did.

Quote

. . . the real distinction between initiated and uninitiated is between those who think of achieving the spiritual kingdom as a way of life and those who understand it merely as a doctrine.  Northrop Frye, The Great Code: The Bible and Literature (Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1981/1982), 129.

Quote

"All the rites are, as M. Van Gennep has taught us, rites de passage."  Jane Harrison, "The Meaning of the Word Telery in Relation to the Social Origins of Greek Religion" (undated, unpublished essay, in Gilbert Murray Papers, GM 25, Bodleian Library, Oxford Univ.), referring to Arnold van Gennep, The Rites of Passage, trans. M. B. Vizedom & G. L. Caffee (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1960), from his 1909 Les rites de passage.

According to Jane Harrison,

Quote

"all the rites de passage have the same schema, birth, marriage, initiation, death, they are initiations: and true myth as opposed to legends have the schema," i.e., "entry, sanctification, exit."  Harrison Papers, ca. 1910, Newham College, Cambridge Univ., England.

At its deepest level, the Mormon temple endowment experience is a Grand Catechism in which the individual catechumen repeatedly goes through a set temple liturgy, the object of which is not only to perform saving ordinances for the dead by proxy (2 Maccabees 12:44-45, 1 Corinthians 15:29), and to make sacred covenants and to be taught basic Gospel principles via repetition, but also to commune with God and to receive personal revelation on an open-ended basis.  All that in the midst of a ritual dramatic pageant in which all those attending actively worship and participate.  Careful analysis of biblical texts shows that this was also the case in ancient Israel.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

Does anyone know any statements from the Brethren in effect that the Temple and all that is done therein is type or preparation of what will happen when we pass away? So, like the Temple here and now prepares us for when we actually come up into God's presence-not to demean the Temple but like when Dorothy et al came into the Wizard of Oz's chamber. Here it's kind of a dress rehearsal for what comes ahead in the next life, I seem to recall some statements to that effect but can't recall who said it.

As others said that's not all the temple is. But I suspect you don't disagree with that but just want statements about it being a dry run for the real thing. I used to have some quotes along those lines but can't find most of them at the moment. The idea more or less is that our real endowment is to the preparatory endowment what the second anointing is to the anointing we receive prior to the endowment.

I'd add that, without giving away anything inappropriate, that it's worth listening carefully to how the endowment is described. i.e. are you made something or made to become something? The idea of a preparatory anointing as a king or priest prior to being anointed as a king or priest isn't at all uncommon in the ancient world. To quote George Q. Cannon, "in the washing that takes place in the first endowment, they are washed that they might become clean from the blood of this generation — that is, I suppose, in the same way they are ordained to be Kings and Priests — that ordinance does not make them clean from the blood of this generation anymore than it makes them Kings and Priests. If they fully received of another endowment, a fulness of that power, and the promises are fulfilled in the bestowal of the power upon them." (August 2, 1883 School of the Prophet Minute Book)

As to who said what, McConkie said a surprising amount especially in his Doctrinal New Testament Commentary. Although he often did in a somewhat veiled way. Honestly the best reference is Joseph's May 14, 1843 sermon although not everyone might agree with my reading. But if you want someone saying, there's a real heavenly ascent that the endowment prepares us for I don't know of one. I'd say Alma 13 definitely points in that direction though. Especially verse 12. It's also worth reading Moses 1 as a kind of heavenly ascent for clues on this - there's actually a surprising amount of parallel to the endowment.

Edited November 2, 2017 by clarkgoble

[RevTestament]

20 hours ago, Duncan said:

Does anyone know any statements from the Brethren in effect that the Temple and all that is done therein is type or preparation of what will happen when we pass away? So, like the Temple here and now prepares us for when we actually come up into God's presence-not to demean the Temple but like when Dorothy et al came into the Wizard of Oz's chamber. Here it's kind of a dress rehearsal for what comes ahead in the next life, I seem to recall some statements to that effect but can't recall who said it.

I am going to respond because I have a different view than others expressed. I do agree with others that the temple is much more than a lesson on passing into the next estate or thereafter. It represents a new covenant offered to the people. I view this as in addition to that brought by Yeshua with its emblems of baptism and sacrament. So instead of circumcision we now have a new token of the temple garments. The covenant therein is to prepare the Church for the seventh seal in which many will be asked to live their covenants to their full extent. Rather than restoring some ancient mystery religion it represents a progressive implementation of covenantal principles into the seventh seal - some place entirely new for the Church - in which Revelation will unfold and reign as governing principles rather than laws of nations.

[JLHPROF]

The temple is the pattern of God's work.  That's what it is - when he says "worlds without number have I created", the temple represents the path that every world goes through, every individual, and every God.

We all come to earth fallen, receive a veil placed over us that we carry with us through this life, learn how to transcend the veil, receive priesthood keys and glory, return to God's presence, are made eternally part of a God unit (male and female), receive the command to multiply and replenish as Adam and Eve did, remove our robes of glory, descend from the Celestial to the lone and dreary world, taking the veil with us, where we fulfill the command to sacrifice and multiply and replenish, and send our children through the same process, until we once again return to God's presence with our personal kingdoms of glory following us.

And the cycle repeats down through the generations ad infinitum.

So to say that it is anything less than a glimpse of the eternal pattern is to understate it.  To say that it is a dress rehearsal is to underestimate the importance of what we do here.  What we do on earth is the same thing we will do as Gods, only on a limited level.  We suffer the same veil Adam and Eve did, we receive the same garment, gain the same priesthood keys, offer the same sacrifices, learn how to reenter God's presence, receive an eternal union as male and female which allows us to create eternal families and posterity, go down into the world and lead them back to the Celestial.

We are doing what God does.  That is the temple pattern.  And the endowment of power is the actual knowledge and keys necessary to pierce the veil back into God' presence.
 

[nuclearfuels]

The Temple is a preview of coming attractions / a glimpse at what we might be able to do due to the Savior's Atonement.

[JLHPROF]

28 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

The Temple is a preview of coming attractions / a glimpse at what we might be able to do due to the Savior's Atonement.

I disagree.  The temple includes past, present, and future.  Not just future.

To me it is one of the biggest misconceptions about the temple:
1. It's all in the future
2. It's all symbolic
3. It doesn't bestow any power

All are wrong.

Edited November 3, 2017 by JLHPROF

[theplains]

On 01/11/2017 at 6:57 PM, JLHPROF said:

"Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses 2:31)

Some have suggested that Smith and other early LDS leaders took these ideas of keywords, signs, and tokens
from Freemasonry and incorporated them into the LDS temple.  The masonic symbol of the all-seeing eye (as
one example) is also present on some LDS buildings.

We know from the New Testament that keywords, signs, tokens, and the wearing of special temple garments
was non-existent in the early Christian church. Believers did not go to the temple (or anywhere else) for their 
endowment ceremony.  They were not baptized in the font (upon the 12 oxen) that the Old Testament priests
used for ceremonial washings and they did not visit the temple in Jerusalem for eternal marriage ceremonies.

I have even heard, but can't confirm, that temple going Mormons were not allowed to also visit the Masonic
Temple since all Masons (irregardless of whether they were Buddhists, Hindus, or atheists) hoped to enter the
Celestial Lodge in Heaven.

Thanks,
Jim

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Some have suggested that Smith and other early LDS leaders took these ideas of keywords, signs, and tokens
from Freemasonry and incorporated them into the LDS temple.  The masonic symbol of the all-seeing eye (as
one example) is also present on some LDS buildings.

We know from the New Testament that keywords, signs, tokens, and the wearing of special temple garments
was non-existent in the early Christian church. Believers did not go to the temple (or anywhere else) for their 
endowment ceremony.  They were not baptized in the font (upon the 12 oxen) that the Old Testament priests
used for ceremonial washings and they did not visit the temple in Jerusalem for eternal marriage ceremonies.

I have even heard, but can't confirm, that temple going Mormons were not allowed to also visit the Masonic
Temple since all Masons (irregardless of whether they were Buddhists, Hindus, or atheists) hoped to enter the
Celestial Lodge in Heaven.

Thanks,
Jim

It has also been suggested the masons stole their symbolism from Solomon's Temple. There weren't any baptisms for the dead in the OT times because Christ hadn't broken the bands of death yet

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

We know from the New Testament that keywords, signs, tokens, and the wearing of special temple garments
was non-existent in the early Christian church.

Well now that's just not accurate.

And there are literally dozens of webpages documenting temple symbols and sacred clothing among the early Christians.

[theplains]

On 04/11/2017 at 6:56 PM, JLHPROF said:

Well now that's just not accurate.

And there are literally dozens of webpages documenting temple symbols and sacred clothing among the early Christians.

Do you have an example where the New Testament Christians visited the temple to participate in the Endowment
Ceremony, wore aprons, or shook hands through a veil?

Thanks
Jim

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Do you have an example where the New Testament Christians visited the temple to participate in the Endowment
Ceremony, wore aprons, or shook hands through a veil?

Since the Christians wouldn't have had access to the Jewish temple to do that, why do you think they did it there?

If you're asking are the Christian, Jewish or near Christian texts with people doing what Mormons do there are plenty. 1 & 2 Jeu is the one most point to although you can find a lot in the Jewish hekhalot and merkabah literature.  Jeu has seals, signs, and names one gives as one passes through veils. The Pistis Sophia is pretty explicit as well - particularly chapters 138-142. There Christ tells the apostles and Mary that he'll give the mysteries (rites) for various aeons with "their seals and their ciphers and the manner of invocation for reaching their regions" (138)

"

My favorite is The Gospel of Philip which has a mirror bridal chamber. Tied to the bridal chamber is a type of deification. Quoting from it:

"A horse sires a horse, a man begets man, a god brings forth a god. Compare the bridegroom and the bride. They have come from the [...]. No Jew [...] has existed. And [...] from the Jews. [...] Christians [...] these [...] are referred to as "The chosen people of [...]," and "The true man" and "Son of Man" and "the seed of the Son of Man". This true race is renowned in the world [...] that the sons of the bridal chamber dwell.

Whereas in this world the union is one of husband with wife - a case of strength complemented by weakness(?) - in the Aeon (eternal realm), the form of the union is different, although we refer to them by the same names. There are other names, however; they are superior to every other name that is named and are stronger than the strong. For where there is a show of strength, there those who excel in strength appear. These are not separate things, but both of them are this one single thing. This is the one which will not be able to rise above the heart of flesh."

Admittedly that's a gnostic text but a Mormon would simply say they took authentic Christian ritual and then platonized it. 

Mormon styled prayer circles are regularly attested in ancient texts as well.

The main argument against these ancient texts are debates over how symbolic or abstract they are (which gets into a discussion of theurgical platonism) and how mainstream they are (which from a Mormon perspective is somewhat irrelevant since mainstream Christianity was from our view apostate fairly early in the sense of losing these rites). But an Evangelical critic would just say this is all an gnostic heresy. But then the question isn't how ancient something is but how orthodox it is, which quickly becomes a circular argument.

I should note that Mormons don't think the Pistis Sophia, Jeu, or Gospel of Philip are the authentic endowment. Rather they include remnants of it or attempts to make up a counterfeit. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by clarkgoble

[cdowis]

On 11/1/2017 at 6:42 PM, Duncan said:

I seem to recall some statements to that effect but can't recall who said it.

In one of his books, Elder Groberg related a dream about the spirit world where he saw the righteous assembled together to wait their turn to enter at the veil. 
One individual who had performed a great act of charity was allowed a place at the head of the line.

Edited November 8, 2017 by cdowis

[kiwi57]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:54 AM, theplains said:

We know from the New Testament that keywords, signs, tokens, and the wearing of special temple garments
was non-existent in the early Christian church.

No. We don't.

That's about as idiotic as saying that we know from Lincoln's first inaugural that he never gave the Gettysburg Address.