Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So gee, you mean this was all just by chance that earth is a very rare and unusual planet, right? Yeah, what they call a "Goldilocks planet." 1
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 16 minutes ago, snowflake said: I don't think anyone puts their faith on Adam's age alone, I agree that seems foolish. But Adam's age in listed in the Pearl of Great price revealed to, translated and edited by Joseph Smith, don't you trust him? It's also in Genesis. Unless you're a Christian who's Bible doesn't include Genesis, I'm not sure of the point of this statement. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And of course as we believe from a scientific account, the elements organized themselves after the big bang from all the elemental particles as shown here https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/1727-how-elements-are-formed And our theology speaks of "matter unorganized" being "organized" by God. As Carl Sagan was fond of saying "We are made of star-stuff". All we have to do is add God as the Organizer to the science and we have Mormon theology. Of course you know this- I am posting for others who never caught that vision!.................................................. Stardust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T6WKdrxzyY .
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 7 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Along the same lines — I find it fascinating that there are Church members who wholeheartedly subscribe to the idea that God has the knowledge and power to create human bodies that will live forever but simultaneously deny he could create human bodies capable of living for a measly 930 years. One might compare such inconsistency in thinking to “straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel.” So much for the God of great miracles... P.S. There’s no need for God to “multiply matter” in order to create billions of resurrected bodies. There’s much more than enough dust in Los Angeles County alone to easily accommodate the process. And with things going up in flames, it seems that all of it is in the air!
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Stardust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T6WKdrxzyY . Absolutely perfect- thanks!
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeah, what they call a "Goldilocks planet." Agreed! But now I have to put on my Rorty hat and point out that only humans would think that. What a coincidence that all a human needs is right here!! It is almost as if we evolved to fit the characteristics of this planet. But we CAN see it validly the other way around as well. Both paradigms are available for our choice- and of course a myriad of possible ways to reconcile the two, which is the way most handle it. Again it is the idea that we look out at the universe and in "nature" we see a mirror of our own needs looking back. Hence "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature" But now we see as through a mirror- darkly. What we need is to see that secularism and Mormonism are just two different ways of seeing through the mirror, and convey how our view expands our moral horizon to the point where humanism becomes theology. Yes we create reality, and we do it as mini-gods. God is human and humans are gods. Both sides of the mirror are "true" within the context each holds. Edited October 24, 2017 by mfbukowski
clarkgoble Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Would you agree that God has already revealed how old Adam was when he died? I've referenced 2 different LDS sources, do you accept it as "truth" or not and if no why? Just because it's an LDS source doesn't mean it's revealed. Moses in the Pearl of Great Price is just excerpts from the translation of the Bible. But again the text wasn't revealed to Joseph, just modifications to the Bible. In many cases those are expansions to the text due to questions. (Indeed several sections of the D&C are technically revelations part of his translation of the Bible work) However as I said, just because verses or phrases were left alone doesn't mean the Bible was correct. It just meant Joseph didn't feel he needed to change them. However after the JST was more or less complete he continued to receive revelation correcting parts of the Bible, suggesting there was a lot more that could be done. 1
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) Oops, wrong thread. Edited October 24, 2017 by bluebell
thesometimesaint Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, kiwi57 said: But you've got to admit, that would be really cool. Not really. But Grandma what big teeth you have. SEE SEE Edited October 24, 2017 by thesometimesaint 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Agreed! But now I have to put on my Rorty hat and point out that only humans would think that. What a coincidence that all a human needs is right here!! It is almost as if we evolved to fit the characteristics of this planet. But we CAN see it validly the other way around as well. Both paradigms are available for our choice- and of course a myriad of possible ways to reconcile the two, which is the way most handle it. Again it is the idea that we look out at the universe and in "nature" we see a mirror of our own needs looking back. Hence "Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature" But now we see as through a mirror- darkly. What we need is to see that secularism and Mormonism are just two different ways of seeing through the mirror, and convey how our view expands our moral horizon to the point where humanism becomes theology. Yes we create reality, and we do it as mini-gods. God is human and humans are gods. Both sides of the mirror are "true" within the context each holds. So God is anthropomorphic and man is theomorphic, mirror images. 1
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 59 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Just because it's an LDS source doesn't mean it's revealed. Moses in the Pearl of Great Price is just excerpts from the translation of the Bible. But again the text wasn't revealed to Joseph, just modifications to the Bible. In many cases those are expansions to the text due to questions. (Indeed several sections of the D&C are technically revelations part of his translation of the Bible work) However as I said, just because verses or phrases were left alone doesn't mean the Bible was correct. It just meant Joseph didn't feel he needed to change them. However after the JST was more or less complete he continued to receive revelation correcting parts of the Bible, suggesting there was a lot more that could be done. Amazing, now I'm not to trust LDS scriptures because they might not be "revealed"? Never heard that one before.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, snowflake said: Amazing, now I'm not to trust LDS scriptures because they might not be "revealed"? Never heard that one before. You need to ask yourself, what do you trust scriptures to do? If you believe that you should be able to trust scriptures to teach you science or history, then yeah, that's probably not going to end well. If you believe that you should be able to trust scriptures to teach you the gospel of Christ, that makes sense. LDS don't believe scriptures have to be able to accurately teach us the age that adam was when he died to be trustworthy because we don't believe that's why God gave us scriptures. That doesn't seem very amazing to me, but I guess reasonable people can disagree on that. 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: Amazing, now I'm not to trust LDS scriptures because they might not be "revealed"? Never heard that one before. Articles of Faith #9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 30 minutes ago, bluebell said: You need to ask yourself, what do you trust scriptures to do? If you believe that you should be able to trust scriptures to teach you science or history, then yeah, that's probably not going to end well. If you believe that you should be able to trust scriptures to teach you the gospel of Christ, that makes sense. LDS don't believe scriptures have to be able to accurately teach us the age that adam was when he died to be trustworthy because we don't believe that's why God gave us scriptures. That doesn't seem very amazing to me, but I guess reasonable people can disagree on that. The bible is absolutely an accurate history book, there are tens of thousands of relics and archeological pieces that support the timeline, rivers, mountains, cities, peoples, cultures, languages and text of the bible all solidly documented. All of these help support the trustworthiness of the Bible. It is so bizarre to me that you have a statement so clear in the bible and Book of Moses about Adam, yet you come up with reasons not to trust the texts. Here's what the title page of the Pearl of great price claims. The Pearl of Great Price A Selection from the Revelations, Translations, and Narrations of Joseph Smith First Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (But remember don't worry about any of this stuff if it is not teaching about the gospel of Christ)
thesometimesaint Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: The bible is absolutely an accurate history book, there are tens of thousands of relics and archeological pieces that support the timeline, rivers, mountains, cities, peoples, cultures, languages and text of the bible all solidly documented. All of these help support the trustworthiness of the Bible. It is so bizarre to me that you have a statement so clear in the bible and Book of Moses about Adam, yet you come up with reasons not to trust the texts. Here's what the title page of the Pearl of great price claims. The Pearl of Great Price A Selection from the Revelations, Translations, and Narrations of Joseph Smith First Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (But remember don't worry about any of this stuff if it is not teaching about the gospel of Christ) Incorrect. Where is "بَيْت المَقْدِسِ" ?
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 4 hours ago, snowflake said: In my opinion evolution and the Genesis account are incompatible, meaning one of the two must be wrong. Why are they incompatible? 1
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, snowflake said: The bible is absolutely an accurate history book, there are tens of thousands of relics and archeological pieces that support the timeline, rivers, mountains, cities, peoples, cultures, languages and text of the bible all solidly documented. All of these help support the trustworthiness of the Bible. It is so bizarre to me that you have a statement so clear in the bible and Book of Moses about Adam, yet you come up with reasons not to trust the texts. Here's what the title page of the Pearl of great price claims. The Pearl of Great Price A Selection from the Revelations, Translations, and Narrations of Joseph Smith First Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (But remember don't worry about any of this stuff if it is not teaching about the gospel of Christ) Snowflake, can you explain to me why you're trying to single out LDS here when this statement that Adam lived to be 930 is found in Genesis? 2
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 37 minutes ago, snowflake said: The bible is absolutely an accurate history book, there are tens of thousands of relics and archeological pieces that support the timeline, rivers, mountains, cities, peoples, cultures, languages and text of the bible all solidly documented. All of these help support the trustworthiness of the Bible. None of that means that it's an accurate history book though. I can point to any number of fictional books that take place in actual historical places, that doesn't mean that they are a trustworthy source of history though. Quote It is so bizarre to me that you have a statement so clear in the bible and Book of Moses about Adam, yet you come up with reasons not to trust the texts. Like i said, I don't believe God ever meant the bible to be taken completely literally and I think He wants His children to be able to deal with that and still have a faithful relationship with Him. You see the purpose of the bible as being different than I do, that's why your perspective of it is different than mine. Quote Here's what the title page of the Pearl of great price claims. The Pearl of Great Price A Selection from the Revelations, Translations, and Narrations of Joseph Smith First Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (But remember don't worry about any of this stuff if it is not teaching about the gospel of Christ) Why do you care what I think about the PoGP? You don't believe anything on it's title page is true anyway.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Snowflake, can you explain to me why you're trying to single out LDS here when this statement that Adam lived to be 930 is found in Genesis? Snowflake believes that the statement in Genesis is completely factual and he is annoyed that some LDS don't, seeing as, in his mind, we have even more of a reason to believe than he does, because we have two books of scripture that it's in while he only has one.
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: So God is anthropomorphic and man is theomorphic, mirror images. That's what my mirror says. I wonder how many people noticed that the veil in the temple is a mirror? That left is right and right is left? Edited October 24, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, bluebell said: Snowflake believes that the statement in Genesis is completely factual and he is annoyed that some LDS don't, seeing as, in his mind, we have even more of a reason to believe than he does, because we have two books of scripture that it's in while he only has one. That makes no sense. Majority of mainstream Christians don't believe the Adam was 930 to be literal anyways, same with Jews and Muslims, and Bahai, etc. So his argument is against all Abrahamic faiths, including his own. 1
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: That makes no sense. Majority of mainstream Christians don't believe the Adam was 930 to be literal anyways, same with Jews and Muslims, and Bahai, etc. So his argument is against all Abrahamic faiths, including his own. Does it matter what the majority believe? What matters is fact / true. Things as they really were, as they really are, and as they really will be. That's what matters. Did Adam live to 930? I have my doubts, but be it literal or be it figurative, it probably doesn't matter.
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 25 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Does it matter what the majority believe? What matters is fact / true. Things as they really were, as they really are, and as they really will be. That's what matters. Did Adam live to 930? I have my doubts, but be it literal or be it figurative, it probably doesn't matter. I agree that is doesn't really matter. But I don't understand why Snowflake is trying to single out LDS specifically in this thread.
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: I agree that is doesn't really matter. But I don't understand why Snowflake is trying to single out LDS specifically in this thread. I think he'd single out any Christian who'd disagree that every word in the Bible is divinely given and inerrant. LDS just happen to be one of those non-inerrant types.
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I think he'd single out any Christian who'd disagree that every word in the Bible is divinely given and inerrant. LDS just happen to be one of those non-inerrant types. There's a huge different between being something being 1) inerrant 2) must be taken literally. 1
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