kiwi57 Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Dinosaurs and massively big insects were not contemporaries. Nor were they contemporaries of human's. Noah nor Jesus rode around on a dinosaur, or massive flying insect. But you've got to admit, that would be really cool.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And of course as we believe from a scientific account, the elements organized themselves after the big bang from all the elemental particles as shown here https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/1727-how-elements-are-formed And our theology speaks of "matter unorganized" being "organized" by God. As Carl Sagan was fond of saying "We are made of star-stuff". All we have to do is add God as the Organizer to the science and we have Mormon theology. .................................................. What I like is the formation of the heavier elements, like gold: Quote . . . it is important to understand that the composition of Earth is very different from the composition of most of the universe. Of the "normal" matter in the universe (meaning, not dark matter or dark energy), most of it consists of hydrogen and helium. Only a tiny fraction of elemental matter in the universe consists of things heavier than the two lightest elements, which means that much of Earth's composition — elements like carbon, iron, phosphorus, uranium, you name it — are comparatively rare. We live on an exceptional planet. Stars are responsible for producing much of the universe's non-hydrogen elements. Through the process of nuclear fusion, smaller nuclei combine to become larger ones. Stars are basically stellar element factories: they convert hydrogen to helium and then higher elements, and produce heat and energy in the process. But there is a limit to the size of the atoms they can produce: iron is actually the heaviest isotope that is directly produced by fusion. By the time a star's core is dense enough that it's making iron, it has only a short amount of time to live before inevitably exploding or imploding in some fashion. So where do elements heavier than iron come from? As you may recall, iron is only the 26th element on the periodic table, meaning there are about 60 heavier stable elements, including things like silver, gold, lead, uranium, etc. The answer is complicated, but some of these elements are generated in hypernova explosions, when the matter in stars is compressed against other matter in ongoing shockwaves and nuclei are shoved into each other to produce small quantities of really heavy elements. Similar things happen in kilonova explosions: the cascading waves of extremely dense particles collide and form really heavy isotopes of elements like gold and platinum. UC Berkeley astronomers estimated that this neutron star merger produced a "yield of gold [of] around 200 Earth masses," and "500 Earth masses" of platinum. https://www.salon.com/2017/10/18/how-a-watershed-space-explosion-created-trillions-of-tons-of-gold/ . Edited October 24, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 1
mfbukowski Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: What I like is the formation of the heavier elements, like gold: So gee, you mean this was all just by chance that earth is a very rare and unusual planet, right? 1
Bobbieaware Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I wouldn't worry about it either way there are multiple solutions to the problem for those who take it literally and for those who do not. For those who do not, there IS no problem- as usual. Only literalists have problems confusing science and religion. Sorry- you know you are my sister though. We get to disagree in "families" especially in the family of the gospel. But even taking it literally, Jesus fed thousands with a few loaves and fishes. As documented in the scriptures if you take them literally, there should be no problem multiplying matter to cover resurrected bodies I love President Young's take on so many things- he was definitely gifted in coming up with scriptural interpretations. Of course I don't agree with all of them but that's the way it works with gospel siblings isn't it? Along the same lines — I find it fascinating that there are Church members who wholeheartedly subscribe to the idea that God has the knowledge and power to create human bodies that will live forever but simultaneously deny he could create human bodies capable of living for a measly 930 years. One might compare such inconsistency in thinking to “straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel.” So much for the God of great miracles... P.S. There’s no need for God to “multiply matter” in order to create billions of resurrected bodies. There’s much more than enough dust in Los Angeles County alone to easily accommodate the process. 3
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 15 hours ago, bluebell said: Not necessarily. Other dinosaur bones have dated much older than these ones in the study. Is there any reason to doubt the older dating but believe the younger dating? In my opinion an old earth destroys biblical Christianity, there is an agenda in teaching evolution.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion an old earth destroys biblical Christianity, there is an agenda in teaching evolution. Lots of biblical Christians have taught evolution. What agenda do they have? 2
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 55 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion an old earth destroys biblical Christianity, there is an agenda in teaching evolution. By profession I work at a university studying/investigating/teaching concepts about the natural world, including evolution. I do not find such studies to be detrimental to my Christian faith at all--- rather it causes my faith to *flourish*. I have the privilege of literally being paid to study how great God is and understand the tiniest fraction of how He works His wonders. My job and my faith are awesome! 1
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Lots of biblical Christians have taught evolution. What agenda do they have? In my opinion evolution and the Genesis account are incompatible, meaning one of the two must be wrong. Now, the great thing about the LDS worldview is that it is like a buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff. Nothing in Mormonism is concrete so there are "outs" available for every situation even if it is written in scripture i.e. the age of Adam in the Book of Moses.
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion evolution and the Genesis account are incompatible, meaning one of the two must be wrong. Bruce R. McConkie agreed with you, calling the idea that they can both be true a deadly heresy. Quote Now, the great thing about the LDS worldview is that it is like a buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff. Nothing in Mormonism is concrete so there are "outs" available for every situation even if it is written in scripture i.e. the age of Adam in the Book of Moses. You don't think the same is true of traditional Christianity? The differences in the denominational beliefs indicate that there is little so concrete that there isn't at least one Christian denomination that doesn't reject it. Religion in general is a buffet. People believe what they want. That's not just Mormonism. 1
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion evolution and the Genesis account are incompatible, meaning one of the two must be wrong. Sharing my $0.02-- I don't dictate God's Truth, rather I learn them and accept that my current understanding is absolutely tiny. Therefore, I don't come to God as say "the Bible says you made the earth in 6 days and hence if anything says creation took more than literally 8640 minutes, either it or you must be wrong!". No no. I accept that I'm the student and God reveals His word/meaning to me, not I dictate that God meant creation must literally have taken 8640 minutes. 6 minutes ago, snowflake said: Now, the great thing about the LDS worldview is that it is like a buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff. Nothing in Mormonism is concrete so there are "outs" available for every situation even if it is written in scripture i.e. the age of Adam in the Book of Moses. This is a very offensive mischaracterization of Christianity as a whole and complete discarding of Genesis 5:5. I take it you are not a Christian, Snowflake?
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, snowflake said: In my opinion evolution and the Genesis account are incompatible, meaning one of the two must be wrong. Now, the great thing about the LDS worldview is that it is like a buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff. Nothing in Mormonism is concrete so there are "outs" available for every situation even if it is written in scripture i.e. the age of Adam in the Book of Moses. It seems like you have an agenda. The mormon church teaches that there are things that haven't been revealed yet. Leaving theology out of it, that just seems like common sense. For those things that haven't been revealed yet (such as whether or not God used evolution to create things), why wouldn't there be lots of different options of belief?
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, bluebell said: It seems like you have an agenda. The mormon church teaches that there are things that haven't been revealed yet. Leaving theology out of it, that just seems like common sense. For those things that haven't been revealed yet (such as whether or not God used evolution to create things), why wouldn't there be lots of different options of belief? I didn't know that by asking a question about your scriptures, I was going to cause such a stir. The Bible and the book of Moses say that Adam lived 933 years, I am fine with that, I accept it, no need to come up with some numerical chart to explain it, no need to say that it is a big evolutionary mystery, no need to say 1000 days to us is like a day to the Lord, no need to say it is metaphor, or that science and religion are incompatible. It is in God's word so I accept it as factual truth. God revealed it already!
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 1 minute ago, snowflake said: I didn't know that by asking a question about your scriptures, I was going to cause such a stir. The Bible and the book of Moses say that Adam lived 933 years, I am fine with that, I accept it, no need to come up with some numerical chart to explain it, no need to say that it is a big evolutionary mystery, no need to say 1000 days to us is like a day to the Lord, no need to say it is metaphor, or that science and religion are incompatible. It is in God's word so I accept it as factual truth. God revealed it already! I'm not sure how having a nuanced faith or theology is considered a 'stir'.
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Bruce R. McConkie agreed with you, calling the idea that they can both be true a deadly heresy. You don't think the same is true of traditional Christianity? The differences in the denominational beliefs indicate that there is little so concrete that there isn't at least one Christian denomination that doesn't reject it. Religion in general is a buffet. People believe what they want. That's not just Mormonism. I always like McConkie, he always stood up for what he thought was right and correct. I would agree that it is true in lots of Christian circles. I think you are oversimplifying a bit but the vast majority of Christian churches agree on God, Jesus and the Bible.
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, snowflake said: I didn't know that by asking a question about your scriptures, I was going to cause such a stir. It wasn't asking about scripture that caused a stir. Blatantly referring to Christianity as a "buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff" is offensive and people are going to inform you of that on a Christian forum. Edited October 24, 2017 by Jane_Doe 1
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm not sure how having a nuanced faith or theology is considered a 'stir'. Would you agree that God has already revealed how old Adam was when he died? I've referenced 2 different LDS sources, do you accept it as "truth" or not and if no why?
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: It wasn't asking about scripture that caused a stir. Blatantly referring to Christianity as a "buffet, you just take what you like or makes you feel good and don't mess with the other stuff" is offensive and people are going to inform you of that on a Christian forum. Well to be specific I referred to "the LDS worldview" and sorry if you are offended....toughen up a little please....I thought you were used to open debate at the university?
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: Would you agree that God has already revealed how old Adam was when he died? I've referenced 2 different LDS sources, do you accept it as "truth" or not and if no why? I don't equate God (a perfect Being) with the bible (a book of scripture written by fallible men), so no, i don't agree that God has revealed that. It could be true, or it could be symbolic, metaphorical, or something else. I don't personally have an opinion on it because it does not affect my faith or my salvation in any way so i've put no effort into figuring it out. What I do know is that as I gain more knowledge, my understanding of things changes. I'm not willing to stake my faith on how old adam was when he died because I don't have enough knowledge to feel comfortable with that gamble. For me, it seems like a dumb hill to die on. I realize that other people disagree.
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: Well to be specific I referred to "the LDS worldview" and sorry if you are offended. You actually insulted all Christians and all Abrahamic faiths, as this is part of Genesis. Trying to single out LDS (<0.01% of Abrahamic faiths) specifically in this context is downright silly. Again, I take it you are not a Christian, hence your insults to Christianity?
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 44 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't equate God (a perfect Being) with the bible (a book of scripture written by fallible men), so no, i don't agree that God has revealed that. It could be true, or it could be symbolic, metaphorical, or something else. I don't personally have an opinion on it because it does not affect my faith or my salvation in any way so i've put no effort into figuring it out. What I do know is that as I gain more knowledge, my understanding of things changes. I'm not willing to stake my faith on how old adam was when he died because I don't have enough knowledge to feel comfortable with that gamble. For me, it seems like a dumb hill to die on. I realize that other people disagree. I don't think anyone puts their faith on Adam's age alone, I agree that seems foolish. But Adam's age in listed in the Pearl of Great price revealed to, translated and edited by Joseph Smith, don't you trust him?
snowflake Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 43 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: You actually insulted all Christians and all Abrahamic faiths, as this is part of Genesis. Trying to single out LDS (<0.01% of Abrahamic faiths) specifically in this context is downright silly. Again, I take it you are not a Christian, hence your insults to Christianity? Jane, how am I insulting all Christian and Abrahamic faiths when I said "the LDS worldview"....the comment was specifically aimed at the LDS worldview. And yes I am a Christian.
thesometimesaint Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 20 hours ago, snowflake said: Carbon 14 has been found in many dinosaur bones putting them in the time frame of humans. http://newgeology.us/presentation48.html Incorrect. There is always some C-14 even in fossilized remains. It just isn't above background unless contamination has altered it. The presence of C-14 in some dinosaurs remains is a function of abnormally high levels of iron in the surrounding ground.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: I don't think anyone puts their faith on Adam's age alone, I agree that seems foolish. But Adam's age in listed in the Pearl of Great price revealed to, translated and edited by Joseph Smith, don't you trust him? Like others have said, there's no reason to use whether or not Adam died after hundreds of years as a standard for whether or not JS was a prophet. Goble said "There were some changes given by inspiration but it's almost certainly not restoring an original text. Thus if the lineages were left alone that doesn't imply they were correct. Just that God didn't really need them revised." I agree with him. If the ages given aren't correct, I don't think that God minds.
thesometimesaint Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, snowflake said: I don't think anyone puts their faith on Adam's age alone, I agree that seems foolish. But Adam's age in listed in the Pearl of Great price revealed to, translated and edited by Joseph Smith, don't you trust him? So? Nothing in LDS beliefs has Joseph Smith or any other mortal prophet as infallible. I trust JS when he said that he communed with God. Still waiting for God to reveal those four corners on a globe.
Jane_Doe Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: Jane, how am I insulting all Christian and Abrahamic faiths when I said "the LDS worldview"....the comment was specifically aimed at the LDS worldview. Because this is in Genesis, and hence your comments applies to all people who believe Genesis. It's in no way specific to LDS. 9 minutes ago, snowflake said: And yes I am a Christian. Then why in the world are you insulting yourself on this thread? From your behavior I thought you were proselyting atheist.
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