Pete Ahlstrom Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, rongo said: I agree. I would also be very, very careful about counseling marriage in many cases (again, it varies by individual). I do not hesitate to counsel celibacy, though. Many people successfully keep all of the commandments while also being gay. This seems problematic when it looks more and more as biological phenomenon and not just a choice.
rongo Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: This seems problematic when it looks more and more as biological phenomenon and not just a choice. Very controversial, and really a mirror reflecting the views of the beholder. It is both, but not an inevitable, irresistible force.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 1 minute ago, rongo said: Very controversial, and really a mirror reflecting the views of the beholder. It is both, but not an inevitable, irresistible force. How do you know this?
rongo Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: How do you know this? How do I know it's controversial and unsettled? The other part is my opinion based on my experience. I think many who believe differently from me agree that where one falls on the nature/nurture spectrum largely determines how one interprets the data. I have to chuckle when people do the equivalent of Al Gore bellowing "The science has been settled!"
Pete Ahlstrom Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, rongo said: How do I know it's controversial and unsettled? The other part is my opinion based on my experience. I think many who believe differently from me agree that where one falls on the nature/nurture spectrum largely determines how one interprets the data. I have to chuckle when people do the equivalent of Al Gore bellowing "The science has been settled!" I dont think it's settled, but going that direction.
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) On 10/24/2017 at 3:43 AM, Meerkat said: I had a joyful hope in Christ long before I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel. It was the diligence that brought me to pasture where I hunger not, neither do I thirst... finally. Now I have a Testimony. The experiment has taken me over hills of joy and valleys of despair where at my core, I gained knowledge. It was (and is) born of experience there was a blessing attached to the Commandment I was keeping, regardless how far away. What about those times there is no joy? What about those times when one wonders if they can ever be happy again? Is there no testimony there? Yes, there are times of great and sustained joy. But that is not it for me. Is it for you, really, MFBukowski, Professor of Pragmatism? 🤔 Yes, feeling is one component of testimony, but not all. Certain pleasant feelings may lead one to experiment with immoral behavior, resulting in guilt, perhaps shame and sorrow. And I suppose those feelings, if carefully and sincerely considered, could result in a testimony that some joys are deceptive. Was it the joy that brought that testimony, or the despair? What we are looking for is a consistent good result, which may not always be accompanied by a feeling. May I replace my earlier thought "spiritual encouragement" with the word "desire?" That is what sets the ball rolling on the path to testimony. "27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me." (Pardon my digression here for a moment-- Don't you have to love the Prophet Joseph Smith's description of a spiritual experience in verse 28? Have you ever heard a more perfect definition? It is very clear, and foundational to my testimony that he was Prophet of the Restoration, this 20 plus year old young man. Okay, MFB, I admit to a feeling of joy when I contemplate that thought. BUT the first time the Spirit testified of that fact to me, I considered it for a day, then ignored it for ten years. That feeling was NOT a testimony. It was the influence of "The Testifier," or The Holy Ghost.) "32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away. 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know," So, MFB, are we at the point of testimony here? I don't think so. "now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect? 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good." "if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit." So we're not there yet. We must persist further. Have we felt joy? Yes. But is joy testimony? I don't think so even yet... "41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life. 42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst." That is what Testimony means to me. And, MFB, thanks for the chance to think about it! 😃 Thanks, and yes we agree that it takes experience after experience for the seed to grow into a tree rooted firmly and springing up to eternal life! THAT is a testimony. Immoral behavior does not bring "joy"- even Utilitarians make the distinction between higher and lower levels of "happiness" https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mill-moral-political/#HapHigPle I think about it a lot and the basis of testimony because it is all we have really. Or more accurately that is all there IS! History is irrelevant, there are no "facts" which can change it. For me even the church could be wrong- if tomorrow some indubitable documentation showed up showing Joseph was a fraud- it would not matter Rationally speaking there IS no better "philosophical life-style" than Mormonism at least as I see it. To see God as a glorified Man who takes away our sins through belief alone ("faith alone") that they are forgiven after all we can do to "fix" the problem (repent) and to work toward perfecting ourselves as perfect human beings, is the greatest possible philosophical model or paradigm I can imagine for humankind And to see us all as sons and daughters of a perfect Father, to whom we can return "after all we can do", and to also believe that everyone who has not heard this message can hear it on the other side, to me, is the most powerful model for spiritual growth mankind (Man of Holiness Mankind) has created. And to know that this Father can communicate directly to us individually to give us messages through our feelings and that the ultimate growth of these feelings creates unspeakable, rhapsodic, eternal joy in our hearts is to me the most beautiful set of concepts ever devised. So Joseph was a fraud? (Suppose) Who cares? If he was he was still a genius who knew perfectly the message humans of all ages needed to hear. He nailed it regardless of anything else. Essentially that is why I am not interested in scholarship or translations or anything "factual" about the gospel. I am a fideist in this regard, along with William James. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fideism/ The doctrine works in my life- the seed grows and I feel the joy. There is nothing better in life than this. Edited October 25, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 3 hours ago, rongo said: How do I know it's controversial and unsettled? The other part is my opinion based on my experience. I think many who believe differently from me agree that where one falls on the nature/nurture spectrum largely determines how one interprets the data. I have to chuckle when people do the equivalent of Al Gore bellowing "The science has been settled!" Science is NEVER settled- the very assumptions of science include further study on every possible issue. The search for further evidence NEVER ceases. To believe it is "settled" turns it into an infallible religion, stated once for all time and perfect and unchangeable. THAT is the antithesis of science.
Meerkat Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks, and yes we agree that it takes experience after experience for the seed to grow into a tree rooted firmly and springing up to eternal life! THAT is a testimony. Immoral behavior does not bring "joy"- even Utilitarians make the distinction between higher and lower levels of "happiness" https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mill-moral-political/#HapHigPle I think about it a lot and the basis of testimony because it is all we have really. Or more accurately that is all there IS! History is irrelevant, there are no "facts" which can change it. For me even the church could be wrong- if tomorrow some indubitable documentation showed up showing Joseph was a fraud- it would not matter Rationally speaking there IS no better "philosophical life-style" than Mormonism at least as I see it. To see God as a glorified Man who takes away our sins through belief alone ("faith alone") that they are forgiven after all we can do to "fix" the problem (repent) and to work toward perfecting ourselves as perfect human beings, is the greatest possible philosophical model or paradigm I can imagine for humankind And to see us all as sons and daughters of a perfect Father, to whom we can return "after all we can do", and to also believe that everyone who has not heard this message can hear it on the other side, to me, is the most powerful model for spiritual growth mankind (Man of Holiness Mankind) has created. And to know that this Father can communicate directly to us individually to give us messages through our feelings and that the ultimate growth of these feelings creates unspeakable, rhapsodic, eternal joy in our hearts is to me the most beautiful set of concepts ever devised. So Joseph was a fraud? (Suppose) Who cares? If he was he was still a genius who knew perfectly the message humans of all ages needed to hear. He nailed it regardless of anything else. Essentially that is why I am not interested in scholarship or translations or anything "factual" about the gospel. I am a fideist in this regard, along with William James. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fideism/ The doctrine works in my life- the seed grows and I feel the joy. There is nothing better in life than this. Amen, Brother! Well said. There is nothing better in life than This! I wish I had the presence of mind for the "Who cares" defense when confronted by our loved one with the "Horses in the Book of Mormon" objection. The horses could have been trained buffalo or imaginary unicorns for that matter. The point is for me, every time I read the Book of Mormon there is a powerful Spirit that testifies to me as strongly as Jesus Christ is my Savior, that Joseph Smith was His prophet and the Book of Mormon is true. "Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them. 8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not. 9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved. 10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? 11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them? 12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. 13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved." From Alma 5 That is a perfect description of what happened and is happening to me. It is also testimony to me that young Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Page after page of it, as I read the Book of Mormon, I see evidence of the truth of it in my own life. I also see evidence of God's mercy extending to everyone who lives it, whether in or out of the Church. Again, from Alma 5 "40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. 41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. 42 And whosoever doeth this must receive his wages of him; therefore, for his wages he receiveth death, as to things pertaining unto righteousness, being dead unto all good works." I love that doctrine from the Book of Mormon. It demonstrates once again that God is not a respector of persons. Everyone has the same fate, to be judged according to their works. From Moroni 7 "But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. 18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ." Those words define the God I worship. And you are right, were they not the words of Christ, they would be words of genius as a faithful guide for one's life. But they ARE the words of Christ because, as you pointed out, "this Father can communicate directly to us individually to give us messages through our feelings and that the ultimate growth of these feelings creates unspeakable, rhapsodic, eternal joy in our hearts is to me the most beautiful set of concepts ever devised." To that, I say Amen and Amen! Edited October 25, 2017 by Meerkat 1
kiwi57 Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 19 hours ago, rockpond said: Since it appears that you don’t want to read the Prince manuscript or Cook’s paper, you could start with source material directly from the church. The link below provides a scan of the church produced pamphlet written by then President Kimball and Elder Peterson in which they assure us that homosexuality CAN be cured, they explain that homosexuality “is not totally the fault of family conditions”, and counsel priesthood leaders to encourage gays and lesbians to enter opposite sex marriages. It’s just 7 pages long. http://www.connellodonovan.com/transgressors.html So are you referring to this bit? "If they will close the door to the intimate associations with their own sex and open it wide to that of the other sex, of course in total propriety, and then be patient and determined, gradually they can move their romantic interests where they belong. Marriage and normal life can follow." Because that doesn't suggest marriage as a therapeutic step, but as a hoped-for long-term goal. "Homosexuality is not the fault totally of family conditions. Every normal person must answer for his own sins." The second sentence explains the first; and it is talking about "his sins." Clearly, then, "Homosexuality" in this context == homosexual behaviour. Of course. And yes, all behaviour is chosen. That's a no-brainer. Which means, of course, that people can repent and turn away from homosexual behaviour. In that sense, homosexuality can be cured. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 25, 2017 Author Posted October 25, 2017 20 hours ago, rockpond said: I was wrong when I picked 20 years. You’ve pointed out that they did 26 years ago. At least 26 years ago. My impression is that the statement I cited merely defined a position that the leadership had always held. Quote Can you point to where our early teachings on the subject unambiguously stated that a church member could openly identify as homosexual and hold a calling, have the priesthood (if male), attend the temple, and serve a mission as long as they remained celibate? I don't have to, as you have failed to meet the challenge to demonstrate where even one person was ever excommunicated or otherwise disciplined in the Church for merely having homosexual tendencies without ever expressing them. Quote And that they would, in the next life, not have any blessings withheld as long as they remained celibate and righteous? Where is that? Church leaders have often given the assurance that no worthy or faithful individual will have any blessings withheld in the eternities who, through no fault of his/her own, was unable to be married in mortality. I take this promise to apply to individuals who are unable to marry (as God has ordained marriage) because their sexual orientation in mortality precludes it. And let me hasten to add here that I don't for a minute accept the assumption that homosexuality is a condition that will persist beyond death. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don't have to, as you have failed to meet the challenge to demonstrate where even one person was ever excommunicated or otherwise disciplined in the Church for merely having homosexual tendencies without ever expressing them. If you believe Quinn, this is true. There were several high profile members who were excommunicated for expressing their tendencies, and several who may have been left alone for controlling theirs.
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 2 hours ago, kiwi57 said: So are you referring to this bit? "If they will close the door to the intimate associations with their own sex and open it wide to that of the other sex, of course in total propriety, and then be patient and determined, gradually they can move their romantic interests where they belong. Marriage and normal life can follow." Because that doesn't suggest marriage as a therapeutic step, but as a hoped-for long-term goal. "Homosexuality is not the fault totally of family conditions. Every normal person must answer for his own sins." The second sentence explains the first; and it is talking about "his sins." Clearly, then, "Homosexuality" in this context == homosexual behaviour. Of course. And yes, all behaviour is chosen. That's a no-brainer. Which means, of course, that people can repent and turn away from homosexual behaviour. In that sense, homosexuality can be cured. Again, you have to take the teachings in context. The pamphlet is directed toward priesthood leaders, on page 2 it touts their power of discernment rather than knowledge coming from the psychiatric field. The paragraph you quoted is not a call for professional therapy. It is encouraging priesthood leaders to direct gay and lesbian members into heterosexual marriages. That was the counsel of the time. The paragraph also states that hey can “move their romantic interests”... another way of saying that homosexuality can be cured as they state in exactly those words on the final page. As for your other quote, the second sentence does not explain the first. The first sentence indicates that homosexuality can, in part, be caused by family conditions. The second sentence is independent of that. I agree that all behavior is chosen. I’ve never argued otherwise. So, after reading the pamphlet by Kimball and Peterson, do you feel that it accurately represents today’s teachings, in its entirety? Could it be published today on LDS.org as the current position of the church?
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: At least 26 years ago. My impression is that the statement I cited merely defined a position that the leadership had always held. I don't have to, as you have failed to meet the challenge to demonstrate where even one person was ever excommunicated or otherwise disciplined in the Church for merely having homosexual tendencies without ever expressing them. Church leaders have often given the assurance that no worthy or faithful individual will have any blessings withheld in the eternities who, through no fault of his/her own, was unable to be married in mortality. I take this promise to apply to individuals who are unable to marry (as God has ordained marriage) because their sexual orientation in mortality precludes it. And let me hasten to add here that I don't for a minute accept the assumption that homosexuality is a condition that will persist beyond death. You have given me a challenge to prove a position that I never took. Interesting. Meanwhile, you and Kiwi are both relying on ambiguity and lack of evidence for your conclusions.
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Meerkat said: Amen, Brother! Well said. There is nothing better in life than This! I wish I had the presence of mind for the "Who cares" defense when confronted by our loved one with the "Horses in the Book of Mormon" objection. The horses could have been trained buffalo or imaginary unicorns for that matter. The point is for me, every time I read the Book of Mormon there is a powerful Spirit that testifies to me as strongly as Jesus Christ is my Savior, that Joseph Smith was His prophet and the Book of Mormon is true. "Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them. 8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not. 9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved. 10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell? 11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them? 12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. 13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved." From Alma 5 That is a perfect description of what happened and is happening to me. It is also testimony to me that young Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Page after page of it, as I read the Book of Mormon, I see evidence of the truth of it in my own life. I also see evidence of God's mercy extending to everyone who lives it, whether in or out of the Church. Again, from Alma 5 "40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. 41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. 42 And whosoever doeth this must receive his wages of him; therefore, for his wages he receiveth death, as to things pertaining unto righteousness, being dead unto all good works." I love that doctrine from the Book of Mormon. It demonstrates once again that God is not a respector of persons. Everyone has the same fate, to be judged according to their works. From Moroni 7 "But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. 18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ." Those words define the God I worship. And you are right, were they not the words of Christ, they would be words of genius as a faithful guide for one's life. But they ARE the words of Christ because, as you pointed out, "this Father can communicate directly to us individually to give us messages through our feelings and that the ultimate growth of these feelings creates unspeakable, rhapsodic, eternal joy in our hearts is to me the most beautiful set of concepts ever devised." To that, I say Amen and Amen! There is no question that they are the Words of Christ from the Christ within you, absolutely and without question, the are "God breathed" from that Being within yourself when you "hear" those words resonating with all your being. What else could they be? They become who YOU are within. And that is all it is possible for any if us to know anyway. All you know is what is within you!
Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2017 Author Posted October 26, 2017 1 hour ago, rockpond said: You have given me a challenge to prove a position that I never took. Interesting. Meanwhile, you and Kiwi are both relying on ambiguity and lack of evidence for your conclusions. You are relying on ambiguity and lack of evidence for your assertions— and you bear the burden. 1
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You are relying on ambiguity and lack of evidence for your assertions— and you bear the burden. Nope. My assertion was (and is) that the Church’s teachings regarding homosexuality have changed. I’ve backed that up with statements and references.
Meerkat Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: There is no question that they are the Words of Christ from the Christ within you, absolutely and without question, the are "God breathed" from that Being within yourself when you "hear" those words resonating with all your being. What else could they be? They become who YOU are within. And that is all it is possible for any if us to know anyway. All you know is what is within you! Interesting. I want to think about this and find some external support. If you have some links, I would be interested to read them. I view God and Christ as being "out there." When I pray, I have never felt as if I were praying to myself. Forgiveness has felt like an external influence responding to my need and repentance. Christ accomplished that historic event for me "out there." Does my spirit have similar qualities to His? Yes. Does my spirit resonate to His tuning fork? Yes. May I become as He is someday? I hope so. But if not, I am beyond grateful for today and for whatever my life is or will become. I would like to learn more about it though.
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 27 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Interesting. I want to think about this and find some external support. If you have some links, I would be interested to read them. I view God and Christ as being "out there." When I pray, I have never felt as if I were praying to myself. Forgiveness has felt like an external influence responding to my need and repentance. Christ accomplished that historic event for me "out there." Does my spirit have similar qualities to His? Yes. Does my spirit resonate to His tuning fork? Yes. May I become as He is someday? I hope so. But if not, I am beyond grateful for today and for whatever my life is or will become. I would like to learn more about it though. Oh I agree with you on every point but notice also that every point is preceded by (quotes) I view I pray Forgiveness is felt.... my need accomplished for me That is exactly the way I feel as well- that it is all "out there" but then again WHERE is the perception itself for every chair and table etc that is "out there"? It is in your head - no one else's! Your perceptions may agree with others- but your perceptions are YOUR perceptions of what is OUT THERE. You see everything from your perspective, out there or not.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2017 Author Posted October 26, 2017 3 hours ago, rockpond said: Nope. My assertion was (and is) that the Church’s teachings regarding homosexuality have changed. I’ve backed that up with statements and references. You’ve backed up nothing. You couldn’t produce a single quote from a Church leader to substantiate your claim, nor could you provide even one instance of someone undergoing Church disciplinary action for merely having homosexual tendencies but not acting on them. Thus you stated a falsehood when you said the Church leaders in former times did not differentiate between homosexual feelings and behavior. 3
Calm Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 On 2017-10-24 at 9:41 PM, rockpond said: Since it appears that you don’t want to read the Prince manuscript or Cook’s paper, you could start with source material directly from the church. The link below provides a scan of the church produced pamphlet written by then President Kimball and Elder Peterson in which they assure us that homosexuality CAN be cured, they explain that homosexuality “is not totally the fault of family conditions”, and counsel priesthood leaders to encourage gays and lesbians to enter opposite sex marriages. It’s just 7 pages long. http://www.connellodonovan.com/transgressors.html I feel there is a commonality here between two posters' approach that perhaps merits passing on the response. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69764-greg-prince-homosexual-policy-and-church-fallout/?do=findComment&comment=1209767982
Meerkat Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) Disregard this post. Edited October 26, 2017 by Meerkat
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: You’ve backed up nothing. You couldn’t produce a single quote from a Church leader to substantiate your claim, nor could you provide even one instance of someone undergoing Church disciplinary action for merely having homosexual tendencies but not acting on them. Thus you stated a falsehood when you said the Church leaders in former times did not differentiate between homosexual feelings and behavior. My claim regarding the changes in teachings as well as the early lack of differentiation* is backed up by the two documents I linked to. I can’t provide a specific quote for the latter because I can’t show something that wasn’t there. I never made a claim about disciplinary councils. * Let me be clear with this since we’ve gone back and forth so many times — This was in regard, per our early conversation, to the teaching that someone could BE homosexual without acting on it, that they could be celibate and still be a worthy member in full fellowship. Edited October 26, 2017 by rockpond
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Calm said: I feel there is a commonality here between two posters' approach that perhaps merits passing on the response. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69764-greg-prince-homosexual-policy-and-church-fallout/?do=findComment&comment=1209767982 I understand but I am referring to the broad changes in teaching over the course of decades. It can’t be shown with single quotes. I’ve tried earlier to identify specific parts, namely choice, cause, and curing homosexuality. Those doctrines have clearly identified sections in both the Cook paper and the Prince manuscript that could be quickly found and have multiple references in them.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2017 Author Posted October 26, 2017 37 minutes ago, rockpond said: My claim regarding the changes in teachings as well as the early lack of differentiation* is backed up by the two documents I linked to. I can’t provide a specific quote for the latter because I can’t show something that wasn’t there. I never made a claim about disciplinary councils. * Let me be clear with this since we’ve gone back and forth so many times — This was in regard, per our early conversation, to the teaching that someone could BE homosexual without acting on it, that they could be celibate and still be a worthy member in full fellowship. You claimed the Church in the past (at first, you said 20 years ago, then you backed away from that time frame) did not differentiate between homosexual feelings and behavior. If that’s true you ought to be able to cite an instance when someone was disciplined for having homosexual tendencies alone, since you said the Church did not distinguish between that and behavior. Or, failing that, you ought to be able to cite an unambiguous statement to that effect from a Church leader.
rockpond Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: You claimed the Church in the past (at first, you said 20 years ago, then you backed away from that time frame) did not differentiate between homosexual feelings and behavior. If that’s true you ought to be able to cite an instance when someone was disciplined for having homosexual tendencies alone, since you said the Church did not distinguish between that and behavior. Or, failing that, you ought to be able to cite an unambiguous statement to that effect from a Church leader. Disciplinary councils are kept confidential, you know I can’t cite anything and if I could it would be a one-sided story (because the church wouldn’t comment) which you would immediately dismiss.
Recommended Posts