Ex-mormon stories

[SamuelTheLamanite]

I read many negative stories on ex-mormon reddit, including stories of divorce and abandonment. Readers without a strong testimony can easily come to the conclusion that the Church of Jesus Christ is harmful or dangerous.  I know someone that left the church for reading ex-mormon reddit, and I want to say that exmormon stories are making some impact.  

 I hope people can come to understand that negative stories are typically one-sided, I am sure exmos forget many positives experiences they had in church.  And of course places like Ex-mormon reddit  only attract people that have negative things to say about the church.  What can we tell a love one who reads negative stories of our church?  

I told my cousin that church leaders are not perfect, but he was too disappointed and emotional. I don't know what else to tell him, some suggestions are welcomed.    

Edited August 22, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[The Nehor]

Unless he seeks you out to talk or you are impressed to share something just love the guy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What can we tell a love one who reads negative stories of our church?

My strategy:

• Plan to go camping (or something else that you both enjoy together).
• Before you go, tell the Lord that you'd like an opportunity to share good things. Explain to Him exactly what you'd like to share from your personal life and ask for help doing it.*
• Go camping (or other activity).
• Have a great time!
• If (and only if) the Spirit tells you to do so, share some of your own personal positive stories of being a Church member. Otherwise, just be a true friend and enjoy each other's company.
• Repeat as needed.

-----

*This means that you have to have a list of positive stories from your personal experiences -- the fresher the better. If for any reason your Church membership isn't currently blessing your life in the ways it's supposed to, you'll need to fix that first.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

.............................................................   

I told my cousin that church leaders are not perfect, but he was too disappointed and emotional. I don't know what else to tell him, some suggestions are welcomed.    

It is possible that he was raised without any attempt to deal with the real world.  Parents who teach basic critical thinking skills prepare their children for real life.  He will find that wherever he goes, he will find beartraps and disappointment.  This can and will happen to anyone in any walk of life.  All children need good mentoring.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I read many negative stories on ex-mormon reddit, including stories of divorce and abandonment. Readers without a strong testimony can easily come to the conclusion that the Church of Jesus Christ is harmful or dangerous.  I know someone that left the church for reading ex-mormon reddit, and I want to say that exmormon stories are making some impact.  

 I hope people can come to understand that negative stories are typically one-sided, I am sure exmos forget many positives experiences they had in church.  And of course places like Ex-mormon reddit  only attract people that have negative things to say about the church.  What can we tell a love one who reads negative stories of our church?  

I told my cousin that church leaders are not perfect, but he was too disappointed and emotional. I don't know what else to tell him, some suggestions are welcomed.    

I don't know that these ex-Mormon stories are really doing as much harm as finding out that anti-Mormon information is actually true. And seeing it on LDS.org under Gospel Topics. 

When I had my faith crisis, I would see new things popping up all over the place. I think if it had ended with Joseph having over 40 wives and no further, I would have lumped it in with Brigham Young having all those wives. But then you start finding out that Joseph married women who had living husbands, and just recently I learned BY lived polyandry. So new things over and over. And now the Joseph Smith Papers have released the Council of the Fifty minutes with some shocking stuff according to some things I've read, and it seems that it's neverending. I think that many are reading the CES Letter and realizing that they were in affect lied to for many years. Withholding the truth is about as bad as lying, I think I was even taught this in church, haha. 

So Samuel, the church is now trying to put out all these little/big fires to keep up. It's not the reddit that is causing the harm, many TBM's would immediately be turned off by their actions. It's when they read on FairMormon or LDS.org that it does the damage. But I know these reddit ex-Mormons share the CES letter, etc. To get the ball rolling. 

The other day I was at a family reunion. And when I'm around these wonderful TBM's I always stay in the boat a little longer because of them. If they were hurtful or if I didn't feel light but evil around them I'd have left years ago. I think if believing LDS just learn to be open to the members like me talking about their faith hurdles, it would sure help. And just keep being good people for reals. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And when I'm around these wonderful TBM's I always stay in the boat a little longer because of them. If they were hurtful or if I didn't feel light but evil around them I'd have left years ago.

This is because personal experiences in the present always trump what someone may have read (or even thought) about the past. That's why we need desperately to be having the kinds of experiences that are the privilege of every Latter-day Saint ... and then keep telling our stories.

In this way, we can play the role of Jacob a la Jacob 7:5:

Quote

And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken

It may have little or no impact on the world's Sherems or their storytelling, but it can be a lifesaver to those who are wavering or wondering but still willing to listen and then get their own experiences. As is taught in 2 Nephi 2, before people can act, they have to be enticed by both sides. We are therefore under obligation to have and share 'enticing' experiences.

It also means that whenever we choose to go a bit 'flat' in the gospel, the impact goes far beyond our own lives or even the walls of our homes; it seriously limits our ability to share the stories that others need to hear.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Pete Ahlstrom]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is possible that he was raised without any attempt to deal with the real world.  Parents who teach basic critical thinking skills prepare their children for real life.  He will find that wherever he goes, he will find beartraps and disappointment.  This can and will happen to anyone in any walk of life.  All children need good mentoring.

I know it's hard to believe but maybe it's just not what it claims to be. Maybe those critical thinking skills and scientific reasoning you seem to want to equate with mormonism is what led this person out?

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I know it's hard to believe but maybe it's just not what it claims to be. Maybe those critical thinking skills and scientific reasoning you seem to want to equate with mormonism is what led this person out?

I think you have it reversed. It is usually blind faith that leads people out.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think you have it reversed. It is usually blind faith that leads people out.

Blind faith that leads people out? How so? Blind faith is usually associated with high demand religion but you say it leads people out? Is up really down?

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Blind faith that leads people out? How so? Blind faith is usually associated with high demand religion but you say it leads people out? Is up really down?

Well, people start to doubt when they hear crazy secular scientific notions like the world being flat or the sun going around the earth or that dinosaurs were really dragons. Then they develop blind faith in these precepts. No proof and they just accept it. Then they apostasize. Very sad.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I know it's hard to believe but maybe it's just not what it claims to be. Maybe those critical thinking skills and scientific reasoning you seem to want to equate with mormonism is what led this person out?

Being a realist is not a Mormon thing, but is good for everyone, Pete.  It is also not a science exercise, but rather has to do with street-smarts, Pete.  That is not to fault piety and humility.  And there is nothing at all wrong with being gracious.  However, along with that it might be helpful to every kid to be told the facts of life before they come up and slap him in the face by surprise.  Those who come from backgrounds in Roman Catholicism, Southern Baptists, Methodists, atheists, or Mormons ought all to be told the true facts of life.  So often, instead, youngsters are unprepared for reality, and end up being disappointed and depressed.  I personally know ex-evangelicals and ex-Mormons who came from homes where reality was the last thing on the minds of the parents -- who virtually guaranteed the apostasy of their children.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Blind faith that leads people out? How so? Blind faith is usually associated with high demand religion but you say it leads people out? Is up really down?

As Mike Quinn likes to say, "the unexamined faith is not worth having."  Those who know their faith and who have given it a searching critique are typically more faithful than the hidebound and rigid traditionaiist -- who never questions anything.  True faith is unafraid of hard facts.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know that these ex-Mormon stories are really doing as much harm as finding out that anti-Mormon information is actually true. And seeing it on LDS.org under Gospel Topics. 

When I had my faith crisis, I would see new things popping up all over the place. I think if it had ended with Joseph having over 40 wives and no further, I would have lumped it in with Brigham Young having all those wives. But then you start finding out that Joseph married women who had living husbands, and just recently I learned BY lived polyandry. So new things over and over. And now the Joseph Smith Papers have released the Council of the Fifty minutes with some shocking stuff according to some things I've read, and it seems that it's neverending. I think that many are reading the CES Letter and realizing that they were in affect lied to for many years. Withholding the truth is about as bad as lying, I think I was even taught this in church, haha. 

So Samuel, the church is now trying to put out all these little/big fires to keep up. It's not the reddit that is causing the harm, many TBM's would immediately be turned off by their actions. It's when they read on FairMormon or LDS.org that it does the damage. But I know these reddit ex-Mormons share the CES letter, etc. To get the ball rolling. 

The other day I was at a family reunion. And when I'm around these wonderful TBM's I always stay in the boat a little longer because of them. If they were hurtful or if I didn't feel light but evil around them I'd have left years ago. I think if believing LDS just learn to be open to the members like me talking about their faith hurdles, it would sure help. And just keep being good people for reals. 

There is another problem, Tacenda, and that is that the Runnells CES Letter and many other anti-Mormon claims are just as much lies as anything you are shocked by in the Gospel Topics Essays, or in the Joseph Smith Papers.  By that I mean that you apparently never heard anything about polygamy as a kid (in my world, even non-Mormons knew about Mormon polygamy and joked about it).  I was always familiar as a young adult with stories of seerstones and money-digging, and of the ordination of Black men in Joseph's time.  All that information was readily available, and even the Tanners constantly printed newsletters and documents about every possible scandal a Mormon might have been involved in, from the Mountain Meadows Massacre to possible assassination schemes by Orrin Porter Rockwell.  The Bible was also filled with just such shenanigans and scandals, which might well lead any good Christian directly to apostasy.  After all, how could God allow evil?

In all such matters, the ordinary person has no way of knowing which claims are true and which false.  They are simply shocked, and typically assume that the anti-Mormon diatribes are true and correct as written -- obviously no need for any sort of perspective or caution in reading polemic attacks.  The motives of the attackers are never questioned, even though the terrible apologists are clearly the worst of the lot.  Even when a top evangelical, such as Dr. Richard Mouw, Pres of Fuller Theological Seminary, repeatedly confesses that his fellow evangelicals have lied about Mormons, it never seems to make an impact.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In all such matters, the ordinary person has no way of knowing which claims are true and which false.  They are simply shocked, and typically assume that the anti-Mormon diatribes are true and correct as written -- obviously no need for any sort of perspective or caution in reading polemic attacks.  

I have recently been researching my Tennessee Mormon ancestors who were affected by the 1884 Cane Creek Massacre. Part of the anti-Mormon campaign that led up to it included spreading false stories about Mormon missionaries seducing and abducting young women and the local distribution of a SL Tribune report of "A Red-Hot Address" in Utah. A Mormon bishop in Juab supposedly gave a talk calling  for extreme violence against non-Mormons. Even though the Trib soon renounced the story as a hoax, the damage was done, the locals were incensed, and two dead missionaries, two dead members, a severely wounded sister, and a dead mob leader were the results.

http://amateurmormonhistorian.blogspot.com/2009/04/red-hot-address.html

We should all be cautious about forming opinions and taking hasty actions based on stories. Unfortunately, in the current climate of social media hysteria, people are more and more shooting first and asking questions later...if they even can be bothered to ask questions later.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Pete Ahlstrom]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, people start to doubt when they hear crazy secular scientific notions like the world being flat or the sun going around the earth or that dinosaurs were really dragons. Then they develop blind faith in these precepts. No proof and they just accept it. Then they apostasize. Very sad.

I don't follow you here. Who today has blind faith in the earth being flat, etc? And from what do they apostasize?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Being a realist is not a Mormon thing, but is good for everyone, Pete.  It is also not a science exercise, but rather has to do with street-smarts, Pete.  That is not to fault piety and humility.  And there is nothing at all wrong with being gracious.  However, along with that it might be helpful to every kid to be told the facts of life before they come up and slap him in the face by surprise.  Those who come from backgrounds in Roman Catholicism, Southern Baptists, Methodists, atheists, or Mormons ought all to be told the true facts of life.  So often, instead, youngsters are unprepared for reality, and end up being disappointed and depressed.  I personally know ex-evangelicals and ex-Mormons who came from homes where reality was the last thing on the minds of the parents -- who virtually guaranteed the apostasy of their children.

Do you think that science, reason, and logic will actually lead someone to mormonism? It seems to be the opposite, to me at least.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As Mike Quinn likes to say, "the unexamined faith is not worth having."  Those who know their faith and who have given it a searching critique are typically more faithful than the hidebound and rigid traditionaiist -- who never questions anything.  True faith is unafraid of hard facts.

This is what led me out. Hard facts showed me that the "true faith" wasn't what it claimed to be. I think this is the experience of a lot of people. So, is examination really the best method for the youth to follow? Or is it a question of examining until the presupposed result is reached?  

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is another problem, Tacenda, and that is that the Runnells CES Letter and many other anti-Mormon claims are just as much lies as anything you are shocked by in the Gospel Topics Essays, or in the Joseph Smith Papers.  By that I mean that you apparently never heard anything about polygamy as a kid (in my world, even non-Mormons knew about Mormon polygamy and joked about it).  I was always familiar as a young adult with stories of seerstones and money-digging, and of the ordination of Black men in Joseph's time.  All that information was readily available, and even the Tanners constantly printed newsletters and documents about every possible scandal a Mormon might have been involved in, from the Mountain Meadows Massacre to possible assassination schemes by Orrin Porter Rockwell.  The Bible was also filled with just such shenanigans and scandals, which might well lead any good Christian directly to apostasy.  After all, how could God allow evil?

In all such matters, the ordinary person has no way of knowing which claims are true and which false.  They are simply shocked, and typically assume that the anti-Mormon diatribes are true and correct as written -- obviously no need for any sort of perspective or caution in reading polemic attacks.  The motives of the attackers are never questioned, even though the terrible apologists are clearly the worst of the lot.  Even when a top evangelical, such as Dr. Richard Mouw, Pres of Fuller Theological Seminary, repeatedly confesses that his fellow evangelicals have lied about Mormons, it never seems to make an impact.

I think you are leaving out the fact that the church deemphasized the true history to the point of it becomming a fairytail and excommunicated those who told the true history. Or is that not part of your world? 

Where is Runnells lying?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Pete Ahlstrom

[Bobbieaware]

15 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Do you think that science, reason, and logic will actually lead someone to mormonism? It seems to be the opposite, to me at least.

If not science, then most certainly logic and reason could certainly lead someone to Mormonism. One of the most appealing things about the religion of the Latter-Day Saints is that it is by far the most logical and reasonable religion on planet earth. And it is the one Christian religion that really does clearly demonstrate the God of perfect mercy, justice and love really is a God of perfect mercy, justice and love. The great appeal of Mormonism is that it's a religion that makes sense and presents God in the best possible light. Are you not aware of this?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Hamba Tuhan]

36 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

One of the most appealing things about the religion of the Latter-Day Saints is that it is by far the most logical and reasonable religion on planet earth.

And then it actually works!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I think you are leaving out the fact that the church deemphasized the true history to the point of it becomming a fairytail and excommunicated those who told the true history. Or is that not part of your world? 

Where is Runnells lying?

That narrative is false.  Arrington, Bushman, and many others regularly published very accurate information on what the early Saints did.  Most importantly, they put it in historical context.  This was back in the day when the internet did not exist.  Journals were published and learned societies regularly met and discussed such matters.  The LDS Church itself has always published milktoast versions of LDS history, and even today one has to look diligently to find the "shocking" details, but they have always been there, and people were not being excommunicated for writing about them.  With the exception of Lavina Fielding Anderson, I can't think of anyone ex'ed for anything other than blatant anti-Mormon writings.

In assaying the lies and deceptions of Runnells, one has first to at least be well-informed about LDS history (very few are), and then seek out the actual reviews of his work.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't follow you here. Who today has blind faith in the earth being flat, etc? And from what do they apostasize?

They leave the true LDS faith to embrace reason and Scientology, flat earthism, and the worship of nanobots.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I read many negative stories on ex-mormon reddit, including stories of divorce and abandonment. Readers without a strong testimony can easily come to the conclusion that the Church of Jesus Christ is harmful or dangerous.  I know someone that left the church for reading ex-mormon reddit, and I want to say that exmormon stories are making some impact.  

 I hope people can come to understand that negative stories are typically one-sided, I am sure exmos forget many positives experiences they had in church.  And of course places like Ex-mormon reddit  only attract people that have negative things to say about the church.  What can we tell a love one who reads negative stories of our church?  

I told my cousin that church leaders are not perfect, but he was too disappointed and emotional. I don't know what else to tell him, some suggestions are welcomed.    

I haven't yet seen this cited here, so I'll go ahead and link to it.

It pertains to how doctrine is defined and how not necessarily every statement made by a Church leader is doctrinal.

Quote

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

I observed though, that this has little-to-no effect on many people who feel they have been blind-sided because they were never taught this or that. From what you say here, it seems  your cousin may be in that boat.

Still, it doesn't hurt to be armed with knowledge and truth.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is another problem, Tacenda, and that is that the Runnells CES Letter and many other anti-Mormon claims are just as much lies as anything you are shocked by in the Gospel Topics Essays, or in the Joseph Smith Papers.  By that I mean that you apparently never heard anything about polygamy as a kid (in my world, even non-Mormons knew about Mormon polygamy and joked about it).  I was always familiar as a young adult with stories of seerstones and money-digging, and of the ordination of Black men in Joseph's time.  All that information was readily available, and even the Tanners constantly printed newsletters and documents about every possible scandal a Mormon might have been involved in, from the Mountain Meadows Massacre to possible assassination schemes by Orrin Porter Rockwell.  The Bible was also filled with just such shenanigans and scandals, which might well lead any good Christian directly to apostasy.  After all, how could God allow evil?

In all such matters, the ordinary person has no way of knowing which claims are true and which false.  They are simply shocked, and typically assume that the anti-Mormon diatribes are true and correct as written -- obviously no need for any sort of perspective or caution in reading polemic attacks.  The motives of the attackers are never questioned, even though the terrible apologists are clearly the worst of the lot.  Even when a top evangelical, such as Dr. Richard Mouw, Pres of Fuller Theological Seminary, repeatedly confesses that his fellow evangelicals have lied about Mormons, it never seems to make an impact.

I was told the Tanners were bad people spreading anti Mormon lies. Many missionaries were told the anti stuff were lies too. I was never told the full truth about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, this I also learned in my forties. I remember hearing about it once and it wasn't explained. You will never hear it even at the Jacob Hamblin home in Santa Clara, Utah which is nearby and Jacob had a hand in it, come to find out. 

I haven't seen where the CES letter lies. But Jeremy has corrected items I've heard. When I read the Gospel Topics about Nauvoo polygamy, it's all the truth. Are you trying to tell me that I should feel good about it since it's coming from the source? I'm suppose to feel good about the history with the blacks not receiving the PH at one time because they are black? And now just learning Mormons had slaves in Utah? And I believe paid tithing by giving a black slave? I'm suppose to feel good that Joseph Smith wanted to be king of the kingdom? This in the Council of the Fifty. This is suppose to make me feel good, because it's the truth? 

I'd like a prophet to follow in Christ's footsteps, Jesus Christ was a humble man who went around to the poorest of the poor, or the sickest among sick, and hung around the lowest people. 

Joseph and Brigham were hypocrits while telling members to follow the WoW, they still partook, even sold alcohol. IMO, they might have used a religion to have concubines, or spiritual and living wives, at least Joseph Smith. Again, IMO they used parts of the Bible they liked and left the parts out they didn't like.

Maybe you missed it, but what I'm saying is that the church putting these things in the light and they being nearly 100 percent what the anti's were saying all along, isn't helping. 

If there was no FairMormon, or Gospel Topics section, or even information about Joseph Smith's wives listed on family history on LDS.org. I might still be a believing Mormon. I might have just chalked it all up to anti stuff. 

The truth didn't set me free, or it did. And now is time to find faith all on my own. And start over, but it's kind of difficult when everyone around you isn't on that path. And you feel all alone unless you hang out with those that feel the same and they are now ex-Mormons, but I still want to hang out with my people, because they are my family and friends and neighbors. 

It puts people in a rock and a hard place so-to-speak. 

PS: I hung out with my friend who is TBM, and she was telling me her sister is reading a book that the Adam and Eve story is more symbolism. That bothers her and her sister, because like me, they thought it really happened. So maybe this will trip her up. I don't know, I just try to keep my mouth shut. 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Tacenda

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Do you think that science, reason, and logic will actually lead someone to mormonism? It seems to be the opposite, to me at least.

I've known many people who were led by that. Of course they're not sufficient. You still need to gain a testimony by the spirit. But I think you dismiss too quickly such things. It's interesting that many critics of the church will point to how spiritual witnesses lead to different conclusions but are far less willing to acknowledge the same things with reason. (Not saying you've said this -- just noting a broader trend)