Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Your example at your business meeting is completely meaningless, unless Holland was there and he fell for the million dollar figure and then he added a bunch of details and used it as a faith promoting story to all of the church's followers. Then your story would make sense and would actually have a point.
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 And for a guy who was so easily deceived by the crazy California missionary story, Holland sure is hard on the deceived: "If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived; and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit. In that sense the book is what Christ Himself was said to be: “a stone of stumbling, … a rock of offence,” a barrier in the path of one who wishes not to believe in this work. Witnesses, even witnesses who were for a time hostile to Joseph, testified to their death that they had seen an angel and had handled the plates. “They have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man,” they declared. “Wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true.” Again, he wants it both ways.
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Dexter Eli said: Your example at your business meeting is completely meaningless, unless Holland was there and he fell for the million dollar figure and then he added a bunch of details and used it as a faith promoting story to all of the church's followers. Then your story would make sense and would actually have a point. All I can say is stay tuned for his conference talk in October! 7 minutes ago, Dexter Eli said: And for a guy who was so easily deceived by the crazy California missionary story, Holland sure is hard on the deceived: "If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived; and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit. In that sense the book is what Christ Himself was said to be: “a stone of stumbling, … a rock of offence,” a barrier in the path of one who wishes not to believe in this work. Witnesses, even witnesses who were for a time hostile to Joseph, testified to their death that they had seen an angel and had handled the plates. “They have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man,” they declared. “Wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true.” Again, he wants it both ways. Yes, misspeaking or getting a story a little wrong is definitely comparative to that. Yes, definitely. No question. (aside to the mods) Is the straitjacket ready yet? I do not know how long I can keep this guy calm..... 1
Dexter Eli Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Getting a story wrong? lol. Keep apologizing for him. It will keep you busy. How is not comparable? Your logic is extremely lacking. You are arguing that Holland is completely excused from being able to tell if a story he hears is true (a story that most reasonable people would recognize as probably not true), but that Joe Schmoe member SHOULD be able to know if a weird book from 1830 is true? That's ridiculous. The Apostle should be able to discern truth much easier than some average person trying to sort out the Book of Mormon. What is the point of being an Apostle if you can't discern the truth? Where was the Holy Ghost? Holland acts like they are joined at the hip. What happened? But keep making your sarcastic jokes and straitjacket references.
The Nehor Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Dexter Eli said: Getting a story wrong? lol. Keep apologizing for him. It will keep you busy. How is not comparable? Your logic is extremely lacking. You are arguing that Holland is completely excused from being able to tell if a story he hears is true (a story that most reasonable people would recognize as probably not true), but that Joe Schmoe member SHOULD be able to know if a weird book from 1830 is true? That's ridiculous. The Apostle should be able to discern truth much easier than some average person trying to sort out the Book of Mormon. What is the point of being an Apostle if you can't discern the truth? Where was the Holy Ghost? Holland acts like they are joined at the hip. What happened? But keep making your sarcastic jokes and straitjacket references. I am not apologizing for him. I reject the idea that an apology is required. Nor do I think you have any idea what powers being an apostle does or does not grant you. You demand feats of superhuman discernment and perfection that even the biblical apostles did not meet. Your logic is beyond "extremely lacking" (a dumb phrase btw) and veers into incoherent ranting territory. I am tempted to be kind because I am pretty much convinced your whole argument chain came from reading some other enemy of the church's bad logic chain but you are criticizing the discernment of others so it is hard to give you a pass when you blindly pass on the babblings of someone I can only presume is an idiot. 2
Thinking Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: So now you are arguing that you can tell a false prophet from a true one from off the cuff comments instead of examining their preaching and counsel? This wasn't off the cuff. This was a prepared talk. Off the cuff is shootin' the breeze at a backyard barbecue.
Calm Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Thinking said: This wasn't off the cuff. This was a prepared talk. Off the cuff is shootin' the breeze at a backyard barbecue. which talk are you referring to?
rchorse Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Maybe we should just give people, everybody, the benefit of the doubt until they've proven themselves untrustworthy. I try not to assume that everyone I interact with is out to deceive me. My guess is that Elder Holland sometimes gets a little carried away in his enthusiasm for the work and misspeaks. Both the critics and believers on this board exhibit the same behavior. I know I've done the same thing many times; not intentionally lied, but given inaccurate information when speaking off the cuff. I doubt there's a person on the earth who is unaffected by this tendency. When someone does a lot of public speaking and people are parsing his or her words in intricate detail, of course errors will be found. Does that mean everything they ever said is a deliberate deceit? To me, the example in the OP is nothing more than another piece of evidence that Elder Holland is human. I'm not seeing the big deal. No one can speak with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. 2
rchorse Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Double post. Edited August 11, 2017 by rchorse
Scott Lloyd Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Calm said: No, it is much more based, imo, on how those of Zion or rather those who are claiming to aspire to Zion treat each other. That and how earnestly they strive to adhere to the laws and commandments of God and keep the covenants they make. (Treating one another well is an element of those covenants.) Conversion rates might ebb and flow, depending on conditions in the world, before we come to the winding up scenes, but the well-being of the Church is and always will be measured in the lives of its members. Edited August 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 2
stemelbow Posted August 11, 2017 Author Posted August 11, 2017 It looks like no one else sees it the way I do. I guess that means either I'm prophetic, or a lunatic, or both.
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