hope_for_things Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 There was an interesting podcast that I listened to this week where the author talks about multiple examples in the BoM where the number seven is used in lists. Numerology was apparently a form of meaning making in Hebrew traditions and the author gives examples where passages in the Bible were intentionally crafted to have numeric significance. He then does the same thing with some observations in the BoM, and points to this as evidence of ancient origins. I'm wondering if anyone has read any essays on this subject, I found it interesting but I'm skeptical. Any suggestions? http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/06/radio-free-mormon-013-new-evidence-book-mormon/
pogi Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 I keep seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere after watching a documentary on numerology. It's a little trick the mind plays causing you to become more aware and observant of suggested numbers that have meaning. If I suggested that the numbers 10 10 were significant, you would probably start noticing them everywhere too. I think there is certainly numerology found in Christianity, but if someone is seeing it in the BoM, I would suggest that it is equivalent to seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere. 2
hope_for_things Posted June 27, 2017 Author Posted June 27, 2017 15 minutes ago, pogi said: I keep seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere after watching a documentary on numerology. It's a little trick the mind plays causing you to become more aware and observant of suggested numbers that have meaning. If I suggested that the numbers 10 10 were significant, you would probably start noticing them everywhere too. I think there is certainly numerology found in Christianity, but if someone is seeing it in the BoM, I would suggest that it is equivalent to seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere. Yeah, thats what I was thinking too and I commented back to him that this is a bias in our minds, we've evolved to be very good at seeing patterns in data even creating meaning from something that the original authors never intended. He had a couple examples where it looked like the author of the text had a set of 8 things, but intentionally combines two of the data points to create a set of seven. One example was a list of ites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, etc. This list ommitted Samites, and then later explained that the descendants of Sam would be numbered with the Nephites and this just happens to get this ethnic list of ites to conform to the number seven. I'm with you though, I have a hard time taking it all very seriously.
boblloyd91 Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 I'll have to dig up the reference somewhere but if I recall there is the concept of a Baktun which was a MesoAmerican thing involving numerology found in the Book of Mormon. I'll try to find it
MiserereNobis Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 When it comes to numerology, it's hard to beat Dante's Divine Comedy. The man, in perfect Medieval fashion, made everything symbolic. 2
cinepro Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: There was an interesting podcast that I listened to this week where the author talks about multiple examples in the BoM where the number seven is used in lists. Numerology was apparently a form of meaning making in Hebrew traditions and the author gives examples where passages in the Bible were intentionally crafted to have numeric significance. He then does the same thing with some observations in the BoM, and points to this as evidence of ancient origins. I'm wondering if anyone has read any essays on this subject, I found it interesting but I'm skeptical. Any suggestions? http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/06/radio-free-mormon-013-new-evidence-book-mormon/ I never really believed in numerology, but did you realize that your post itself has exactly seven sentences? If you count the link as a sentence and divide the longest sentence into two, it's exactly seven! You had to have planned it that way, right? Am I the only one who caught it? What are the odds that this would happen? A million to one? A billion to one? They're incalculable. You would have to be crazy to think that happened by chance. And if you didn't plan it, that means you must be correct. It's like a second witness that the number seven has some ancient, supernatural meaning when it appears in a text. 4
hope_for_things Posted June 27, 2017 Author Posted June 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, cinepro said: I never really believed in numerology, but did you realize that your post itself has exactly seven sentences? If you count the link as a sentence and divide the longest sentence into two, it's exactly seven! You had to have planned it that way, right? Am I the only one who caught it? What are the odds that this would happen? A million to one? A billion to one? They're incalculable. You would have to be crazy to think that happened by chance. And if you didn't plan it, that means you must be correct. It's like a second witness that the number seven has some ancient, supernatural meaning when it appears in a text. Spooky!! This is awesome!
pogi Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 10 minutes ago, cinepro said: I never really believed in numerology, but did you realize that your post itself has exactly seven sentences? If you count the link as a sentence and divide the longest sentence into two, it's exactly seven! You had to have planned it that way, right? Am I the only one who caught it? What are the odds that this would happen? A million to one? A billion to one? They're incalculable. You would have to be crazy to think that happened by chance. And if you didn't plan it, that means you must be correct. It's like a second witness that the number seven has some ancient, supernatural meaning when it appears in a text. When I looked at my notifications, it said that you gave me the rep point for my post on the number 11 11 exactly 11 minutes ago, before that I received 1 rep point from 2 different people 1 hour ago (11 minutes and 1hr + 1 hr = 11 11!!!). 1
ksfisher Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-did-samuel-make-such-chronologically-precise-prophecies There's more than just sevens going on in the Book of Mormon. Edited June 27, 2017 by ksfisher
Atheist Mormon Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: There was an interesting podcast that I listened to this week where the author talks about multiple examples in the BoM where the number seven is used in lists. Numerology was apparently a form of meaning making in Hebrew traditions and the author gives examples where passages in the Bible were intentionally crafted to have numeric significance. He then does the same thing with some observations in the BoM, and points to this as evidence of ancient origins. I'm wondering if anyone has read any essays on this subject, I found it interesting but I'm skeptical. Any suggestions? http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/06/radio-free-mormon-013-new-evidence-book-mormon/ i USUALLY LISTEN THEIR PODCASTS, this was well beyond over the cliff, I think I could benefit listening an astrology podcast than this.
hope_for_things Posted June 27, 2017 Author Posted June 27, 2017 39 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: i USUALLY LISTEN THEIR PODCASTS, this was well beyond over the cliff, I think I could benefit listening an astrology podcast than this. It was a pretty wild ride for sure. You should leave a comment on the podcast site, the author typically responds. I appreciate his efforts and he's a smart guy generally, but agree with you that this one was a little crazy.
hope_for_things Posted June 27, 2017 Author Posted June 27, 2017 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-did-samuel-make-such-chronologically-precise-prophecies There's more than just sevens going on in the Book of Mormon. BoM central.... thanks, but I don't know if I can take them seriously after reading some of there stuff...
clarkgoble Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 I'd distinguish between liking numbers as significant and numerology. The latter assumes some mystic or magic power to the numbers or some encrypted hidden messages. However one could note we like to round to 10 and that the numbers 7, 10, 12 are important. Even for the most skeptical secularist they'll tend to put things in terms of those numbers. There are of course practical reasons. Our weeks are 7 days so it's natural to use that as a pattern. We have ten fingers and our mathematics are in base 10 and we typically round to magnitudes of 10. When we don't it's because of time which is in terms of 12, 24 or 60. 2
boblloyd91 Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: When it comes to numerology, it's hard to beat Dante's Divine Comedy. The man, in perfect Medieval fashion, made everything symbolic. I read that this past year, it was a great book, but there were parts that were over my head. I'm not going to lie, his journey through hell was the most interesting part!
Robert F. Smith Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 8 hours ago, hope_for_things said: There was an interesting podcast that I listened to this week where the author talks about multiple examples in the BoM where the number seven is used in lists. Numerology was apparently a form of meaning making in Hebrew traditions and the author gives examples where passages in the Bible were intentionally crafted to have numeric significance. He then does the same thing with some observations in the BoM, and points to this as evidence of ancient origins. I'm wondering if anyone has read any essays on this subject, I found it interesting but I'm skeptical. Any suggestions? http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/06/radio-free-mormon-013-new-evidence-book-mormon/ See Corbin Volluz, “A Study in Seven: Hebrew Numerology in the Book of Mormon,” BYU Studies Quarterly 53/2 (2014): 57–83, cited in Book of Mormon Central, “What is the Symbolism of the Stained Swords of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies? (Alma 24:12),” KnoWhy #132, June 29, 2016, online at https://knowhy.dev-bookofmormoncentral.org/content/what-is-the-symbolism-of-the-stained-swords-of-the-anti-nephi-lehies
Robert F. Smith Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 6 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: I'll have to dig up the reference somewhere but if I recall there is the concept of a Baktun which was a MesoAmerican thing involving numerology found in the Book of Mormon. I'll try to find it Mesoamerican archeologist John Clark is quoted on that in Book of Mormon Central, “Why Did Samuel Make Such Chronologically Precise Prophecies? (Hela 13:5),” KnoWhy #184, Sept 9, 2016, online at https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-did-samuel-make-such-chronologically-precise-prophecies . Archeologist Mark Wright is also quoted therein. Both are LDS. I treat the matter more extensively in my “The Role of Cyclical Fatalism Among the Maya,” 2011, online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/74773355/Cyclic-Fatalism-Among-the-Maya , and at http://www.bmaf.org/node/386 . 4
clarkgoble Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: When it comes to numerology, it's hard to beat Dante's Divine Comedy. The man, in perfect Medieval fashion, made everything symbolic. Yup. Dante at the very beginning of the Renaissance. (Or end of the medieval era depending upon how you want to look at it) A lot of the meaning of his numbers goes back to the early fathers though. But some of his use went beyond mere numeric symbolism into what I'd call true numerology. Elements from late platonism made it into his work. The very structure of his poetry told a story. It's amazing how deep you can delve on Dante. A great paper for those interested is this one from Thomas Rendell "The Numerology of Dante's Divine Vision" I could have sworn there was a paper from BYU Studies in the late 80's on Dante and the hypersphere for those of you familiar with more esoteric geometry. I couldn't find it for the life of me though. A similar paper is this one "One Dante, Hyperspheres, and the Curvature of the Medieval Cosmos" 3
Robert F. Smith Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 8 hours ago, pogi said: I keep seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere after watching a documentary on numerology. It's a little trick the mind plays causing you to become more aware and observant of suggested numbers that have meaning. If I suggested that the numbers 10 10 were significant, you would probably start noticing them everywhere too. I think there is certainly numerology found in Christianity, but if someone is seeing it in the BoM, I would suggest that it is equivalent to seeing the numbers 11 11 everywhere. The most famous gematria is that of 666 in Rev 13:15-18, which is the sum of either the Hebrew or Greek spelling of Neron Qaisar (Emperor Nero), while the more accurate variant reading there is 616 which is the sum of the Latin spelling of his name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast . One interesting gematria published recently was by Julia Blum, a Jewish scholar: “Jesus and the Secret Number,” Israel Institute of Biblical Studies, May 2017, online at http://lp.israelbiblicalstudies.com/lp_iibs_jbnt_14_matthew-en.html , Blum makes the point that the genealogy of Jesus given in Matthew consists of three sets of 14 generations each. David is the 14th, and the gematria of David's name is 14. Blum says: "The emphasis on David here is abundantly clear. Matthew uses the number fourteen to connect Jesus to King David, and thus presents his genealogy in a distinctively Jewish way." 3
Johnnie Cake Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 8 hours ago, cinepro said: I never really believed in numerology, but did you realize that your post itself has exactly seven sentences? If you count the link as a sentence and divide the longest sentence into two, it's exactly seven! You had to have planned it that way, right? Am I the only one who caught it? What are the odds that this would happen? A million to one? A billion to one? They're incalculable. You would have to be crazy to think that happened by chance. And if you didn't plan it, that means you must be correct. It's like a second witness that the number seven has some ancient, supernatural meaning when it appears in a text. And if you count all the words in the OP (I must be really board) you get 98 which is a number divisible by 7. This can't be a coincidence...Crazy, the church is true
hope_for_things Posted June 28, 2017 Author Posted June 28, 2017 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: See Corbin Volluz, “A Study in Seven: Hebrew Numerology in the Book of Mormon,” BYU Studies Quarterly 53/2 (2014): 57–83, cited in Book of Mormon Central, “What is the Symbolism of the Stained Swords of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies? (Alma 24:12),” KnoWhy #132, June 29, 2016, online at https://knowhy.dev-bookofmormoncentral.org/content/what-is-the-symbolism-of-the-stained-swords-of-the-anti-nephi-lehies Thanks for all these links Robert, really appreciate it!
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