Gay Beehive Delivers Prepared Speech in F&T Meeting - Ends as Expected

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote.  A great deal about how this all pans out is in the hands of both parties.  The ward could do amazing things to help this young girl and her mother feel loved and accepted.  The church leaders don't really have to correct the child's dreams of getting married to someone she loves.  That is a long way off.  And even if she expressed that dream every time she went to church, I don't think it would change church policy or change the minds of anyone that faithfully believes that church leaders speak for God and are following God's will.

She was however already not going to church, staying home with her mother who is exmormon on .Sundays and attending an alternative LGBT youth group.

It seems unlikely she will in the future have much chance for interaction with her ward in a church setting, though being in Utah she will run into most her age at school and some leaders in the neighbourhood, most likely the bishop as he is best friends with Dad if the mother allows for that kind of interaction (there are exmormons in Utah who refuse to have any contact with any church leader even as neighbours in my experience, though most who draw lines just stipulate when acting as a church leader though from reports it makes it really awkward because many assume you are there to reconvert them, our kids have been forbidden to invite neighbours over to play even though we moved into the ward after they had left or knock on doors for fundraisers done through the Church even if for the Children's Hospital for example).

Edited June 17, 2017 by Calm

[USU78]

39 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Thank you. What a very nice thing to say. It least that is how I perceived your post. Kindness is one of the most important virtues to try to cultivate. I believe I would have to do a lot of "loving correction" and I would hope that my stamina to do so, outlasts their stamina to continue doing something inappropriate.

Zing! Pow!

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I confess I've only heard the decalf coffee thing in Utah. Never back east where I grew up, nor in the south nor in Alberta. And then in Utah in a pretty self-justifying fashion. I don't think it's a big enough deal that most care too much but someone claiming it over the pulpit might get consulted by the bishop. So it's kind of like tithing. No one cares what you think and don't care that much about what you do but would care a lot if you started saying insacrament you only had to pay 5%.

My uncle in California did the decaf coffee thing.  

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Well, if they "know" what a proper testimony is, then why did the parents allow it?

I would only include the mom.  We haven't heard from the dad save through mom and daughter's interpretation.

Do exmormons have the same privileges of beating testimonies as members? (Her mom no longer being a member)

[juliann]

44 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I confess I've only heard the decalf coffee thing in Utah. Never back east where I grew up, nor in the south nor in Alberta. And then in Utah in a pretty self-justifying fashion. I don't think it's a big enough deal that most care too much but someone claiming it over the pulpit might get consulted by the bishop. So it's kind of like tithing. No one cares what you think and don't care that much about what you do but would care a lot if you started saying insacrament you only had to pay 5%.

I was told it would not prevent a temple recommend by a bishop in a conservative CA ward (I think I was asking about tea, was surprised and then included coffee.) I've never questioned it since. I'm pretty sure, however, that there has been official acknowledgment that the coffee/tea prohibition has nothing to do with caffeine. That reason came up in GD, with a correction that it was really "tannic acid."  

None of it makes any sense when it is deconstructed, so I just go back to it being about setting us apart as covenant people kind of thing. Never having drunk the stuff, it all tastes icky to me anyway so I don't put a lot of thought into it. Enough research has come out about tea that I should be drinking some for specific medical reasons. But I can't load that up with chocolate to kill the taste.

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

Your argument is with the English language. Anti-gay doctrines fall firmly in the arena of homophobia. If you're not ashamed of the doctrines you shouldn't be afraid of the word homophobia.

I am not personally afraid of people misusing a word to characterize my position.  If people want to call me a homophobic that is up to them.  Their ignorance of what constitutes a real phobia is not my problem.   Anti-rape views I guess fall firmly into the arena of "virgivitiphobia" but I don't think simply hating or not supporting rape really should be called virgivitiphobia

[Bobbieaware]

Perhaps this has already been addressed, but I have a friend who insists this whole story is likely fake news because no specific ward has been disclosed as the location were this event took place. Do we know enough specifics to verify this story?

[Anijen]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do exmormons have the same privileges of beating testimonies as members? (Her mom no longer being a member)

Fast and testimony meeting is reserved for members of the Church. This includes both old and young (although technically under the age of 8 are not yet members). However, I have seen non-members bear their testimony and I couldn't blame them for not knowing the rules. Even many members do not know that it is generally reserved only for faithful Church members.

You can read about it here.

[carbon dioxide]

I am one of those people rarely speak or give their testimony in church.  I prefer a little attention directed at me as possible but I was was present I would have been forced to give my own testimony after this girl testimony and went against what she said.  I wonder if any members got up and gave their testimony to defend the Lord's standard on this issue.

[Guest]

On June 15, 2017 at 11:39 PM, MormonVideoGame said:

 

What do you think? 

What do I think, I think that many, many, many choose to live celebrate lives and obey God's laws. Just like heterosexual men who struggle with lust, and are attracted to every woman whom they find attractive on the planet, but remain faithful to their wives. I once spoke to a man who felt guilty because of the feelings he had, after more discussion I asked how were things at home? He said that his wife had been molested by her father, as a result it had been 20 years since they were together. Being with and loving someone is wonderful, but it is not impossible to obey the commandments of God if this is not our burden to bare. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[USU78]

9 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

He said that his wife had been molested by her father, as a result it had been 20 years since they were together. Bent with and loving someone is wonderful, but it is not impossible to obey the commandments of God if this is not our burden to bare. 

😖

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

Perhaps this has already been addressed, but I have a friend who insists this whole story is likely fake news because no specific ward has been disclosed as the location were this event took place. Do we know enough specifics to verify this story?

They live in Eagle Mountain, her mother's name is in the Huffington Post article and you can find plenty of family pictures going back years as well as when her mom became an activist over a year ago on her mom's Facebook page.  You can also find the ward' name with a little ingenuity (took me a few minutes using two websites.) and call the bishop if you care to.****

The video itself would be hard to fix.  What are they suggesting?  A crowd snuck into a chapel to film it?

****I just did this to prove it could be done before claiming it could be done.  I am not encouraging anyone to do so, nor do I think they should.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Calm

[Bobbieaware]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

They live in Eagle Mountain, her mother's name is in the Huffington Post article and you can find plenty of family pictures going back years as well as when her mom became an activist over a year ago on her mom's Facebook page.  You can also find the ward' name with a little ingenuity (took me a few minutes using two websites.) and call the bishop if you care to.****

The video itself would be hard to fix.  What are they suggesting?  A crowd snuck into a chapel to film it?

****I just did this to prove it could be done before claiming it could be done.

Thanks much, Cal. We're talking about an extreme skeptic who doesn't trust any news story until the who, what, when, where, and why of the story have been firmly established. And yes, the supposition is that the video was staged in a chapel by "actors" who put on a performance without the bishop's knowledge.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[MormonVideoGame]

4 hours ago, Anijen said:

Emphasis mine. I would disagree. I live outside of Utah, and most members know that decaf coffee is still coffee and still against the word of wisdom. It is not "very prevel[e]nt" outside of Utah, whether within in the US or outside its borders.

Re-read, "Outside of Utah the cultures are different. The claim that decaf coffee is okay for Mormons is very prevelant in some US regions and other parts of the world, trust me!"  

Do you have a son serving a mission in Latin America? Tell him to ask the Bishop in the ward he is serving. 

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

When I was married in the temple my dad needed to get his recommend renewed in order to be present for it. He was a coffee drinker, but the bishop told him if he would drink decaf he could get the recommend.

Exactly! 

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

What do I think, I think that many, many, many choose to live celebrate lives and obey God's laws. 

Please show us the evidence that many homosexuals succesfully live a celebate life. Like my Bishop once said, "it is harder for singles to live the law of chastity" 

Edited June 18, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

 Just like heterosexual men who struggle with lust, and are attracted to every woman whom they find attractive on the planet, but remain faithful to their wives.

fyi 

"Researchers at Binghamton University, State University of New York (SUNY) have discovered that about half of all people have a gene that makes them more vulnerable to promiscuity and cheating".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21152404

I suspect that most men who are faithful to their spouces don't have that gene.  According to Dr. Fredric Neuman,

Quote

1. Some men simply have very little interest in sex, within or outside the marriage.

2. Some men are shy 

3. Most men who are faithful are simply too busy in their lives to have much time for an affair. 

4. Some men say they feel uncomfortable lying and practicing the various complicated deceits required to successfully pull off having an affair.

5. Some men say that the stakes are too high. They know that their wives would feel terrible if they were discovered to be unfaithful; and, possibly, their marriages would be at risk.

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Gray]

4 hours ago, Flyonthewall said:

This from Wikipedia about the term "Homophobia" :

Opposition to the term homophobia

People and groups have objected to the use of the term homophobia.^{[108][109][110]}

Non-neutral phrasing

Use of homophobia, homophobic, and homophobe has been criticized as pejorative against LGBT rights opponents. Behavioral scientists William O'Donohue and Christine Caselles state that "as [homophobia] is usually used, [it] makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality" itself, arguing that the term may be used as an ad hominem argument against those who advocate values or positions of which the user does not approve.^[111] In the Journal of Applied Philosophy Gary Colwell stated that "the boundary of the term 'homophobia' is made so elastic that it can stretch around, not just phobias, but every kind of rational fear as well; and not just around every kind of fear, but also around every critical posture or idea that anyone may have about the practice of homosexuality".^[112]

In 2012 the Associated Press Stylebook was revised to advise against using non-clinical words with the suffix -phobia, including homophobia, in "political and social contexts." AP Deputy Standards Editor Dave Minthorn said the word homophobia suggests a severe mental disorder, and that it could be substituted with "anti-gay" or similar phrasing.^[113][114]The AP's decision was criticized in some media outlets, especially those in the LGBT area,^[115] who argued that homophobia did not necessarily have to be interpreted in a strict clinical sense.^[116][117]

Homophobia (as it is commonly used) is the equivalent to the term racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Gray

[Gray]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Some people use the term to designate anything they think is in opposition to homosexual acceptance. Others, following more closely the etymology, use it only to mean irrational fear of homosexuality. You're privileging the first use but I suspect the second use is more common.

The second use is I think falling out of favor. Gay panic isn't so much of a thing anymore.

[Gray]

3 hours ago, cinepro said:

Honestly, the most interesting thing about this is what people have to tell themselves Savannah said in order to convince themselves what she did was okay (and the church leaders were "bad").

"Oh, this poor little girl was just talking about love and tolerance and happiness and flowers and moonbeams and out of nowhere some nasty leader shut off the microphone and yelled at her!"

I could take 10 minutes and write a version of her talk that says almost the exact same thing and is totally appropriate to give in an LDS ward.  As I said before, her mom was either ignorant or stupid.  But I've heard enough about what happened leading up to it to be pretty sure it's just the latter (ignoring the fact that this is probably playing out exactly how they would have wanted, so it's also a certain kind of genius).

I would say about 50% of my ward would have no problem with anything she said. So you never know.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Who are you to declare that a 12-year-old boy expressing his belief in the principle of polygamy is any worse than a 12-year-old girl declaring that she wants to grow up and live in a lesbian marriage? You may disapprove, but so what? A lot of people disapprove of gay marriage. And a lot of people think polygamy is a sacred principle. Why does your personal bias get a pass while someone else's doesn't?

I think there's a great deal of difference between a 12 year old girl who plans to have a happy and healthy, faithful marriage in accordance to how God made her, and a 12-year-old boy who is planning to be unfaithful to the woman he marries. .

Edited June 18, 2017 by Gray

[MormonVideoGame]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think there's a great deal of difference between a 12 year old girl who plans to have a happy and healthy, faithful marriage in accordance to how God made her, and a 12-year-old boy who is planning to be unfaithful to the woman he marries. .

He was asking you about polygamy. I don't see anything wrong with open marriages, it is just a sin in the eyes of religion. I don't judge all cheaters because some of them do need affairs according to some psychologists. Some psychologists believe affairs are sometimes neccesary to save a marriage. 

39 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

fyi 

"Researchers at Binghamton University, State University of New York (SUNY) have discovered that about half of all people have a gene that makes them more vulnerable to promiscuity and cheating".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21152404

I suspect that most men who are faithful to their spouces don't have that gene.  According to Dr. Fredric Neuman,

1. Some men simply have very little interest in sex, within or outside the marriage.

2. Some men are shy

3. Most men who are faithful are simply too busy in their lives to have much time for an affair

. 4. Some men say they feel uncomfortable lying and practicing the various complicated deceits required to successfully pull off having an affair.

5. Some men say that the stakes are too high. They know that their wives would feel terrible if they were discovered to be unfaithful; and, possibly, their marriages would be at risk.

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Homophobia (as it is commonly used) is the equivalent to the term racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quite so. Both are weapon words.

[Rivers]

1 minute ago, USU78 said:

Quite so. Both are weapon words.

Both are weapon words that IMO are overused like in the story of the boy who cried wolf.  Both are words often used to shut down a position or argument of which one doesn't agree.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

fyi 

"Researchers at Binghamton University, State University of New York (SUNY) have discovered that about half of all people have a gene that makes them more vulnerable to promiscuity and cheating".

My son has ADHD and from the information I have read those with ADHD are predisposed to more casual and impulsive activity.  If I was to accept the testimony of this girl, God has made him perfect so I should just encourage him to be impulsive and do whatever he wants.  God loves him and that is enough.  

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Homophobia (as it is commonly used) is the equivalent to the term racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

The conclusion I have from it is that people who use this term use it as a crutch because they lack ability to argue their position effectively.  Very rarely do they ever use the word against a person who clinically demonstrates the presence of a true phobia.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

😖

I had to repair a misspelling, if you would like to read again.