Deseret News Opinon Article

[MormonVideoGame]

2 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

"I would posit that the reason those jobs are not filled is that we accept that they are degrading positions fit only for teenagers and the useless for anything else." 

Pushing buttons on a cash register is not a high skilled job and I say that as one who worked for years at Wendy's during his high school years. (Even then you'd be surprised how many couldn't even do that, especially when it came to counting money). I loved that job but that was a starting point. Of course every job deserves respect.

your parents low-wage workers with little education? Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty

Bytheway, we need adults working in low-skilled jobs. Most low-wage jobs (at least outside Utah) don't hire 16-17 year olds. 

[Darren10]

49 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

your parents low-wage workers with little education? Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty

Bytheway, we need adults working in low-skilled jobs. Most low-wage jobs (at least outside Utah) don't hire 16-17 year olds. 

Then hire them.

[halconero]

Here's where the difficulty with Mormon (American) Conservatism lies, and it looms larger simply because a larger number of American Latter-day Saints align themselves with Conservatism: that Mormonism itself becomes subsumed or becomes secondary by the political ideology so that when conflicts between the two arise the aspect of Mormonism is rejected or ignored. I never thought I would see the day when right-leaning members, some of whom are the most public about supporting the Brethern, start publicly doubting the Brethern or the Church when any policy, announcement or doctrine goes against their preferred ideology. The same happens with more liberal-leaning members of course, but without the same aspect of previously unwavering support of the Church. I guess in the sense, the Church justified their conservatism up until it didn't anymore, and then the conservatism was favoured instead of the Church.

Let's take the Law of Consecration. No, it's not a command economy or socialism, but there are strong covenant aspects which differentiate it from completely voluntary capitalism. If you covenant to live it, give up your personal property in favour of a stewardship, and then break the covenant, you're kicked out of the system and the Church keeps your stewardship. That's not quite the completely voluntary/capitalistic society people sometimes portray it to be.

Then there's the issue of neo-conservative policies and leadership. Policy wise there is frequent overseas military adventurism (this is present in neoliberal circles as well), despite the fact that the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants both outline passages where such adventurism is decried. Economically, there's a large sentiment of not relying on government and being wise financial stewards (both of which are good things) even though the Republicans have run up the deficit as much as Democrats, and routinely participate in corporate welfare even if its not lower class welfare. Leadership wise, the idea of having a moral leader is important up until winning becomes more important. Come on, let's be real, the current POTUS who leads the big conservative party in the USA would have been excommunicated for adultery had he been a member, and has largely been unrepentant. So is having moral leaders important? Then there's the issue of focusing so much on moral issues that the "social gospel" is lost in the mix.

I'm not criticizing conservatism. In many ways I identify as a Red Tory conservative (British-Canadian conservatism developed by George Grant). What I'm decrying is my perception that Mormon conservatives often hold to a conservative ideal which doesn't actually reflect the neo-conservative reality, and that criticism of that reality are often perceived to be attacks on their ideal to the extent that even if the Church criticizes it they'll give the reality-covered-by-the-veneer-of-ideal the benefit of the doubt.

[Darren10]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:02 PM, BlueDreams said:

I think that's definitely a problem with absolutes....but it also bares pointing out that UT's version of a conservative society is really hard to reproduce outside of the state. In part because of how large a role the church plays in welfare programs. It gives a model of compassionate conservatism, but in doing so it's also currently an exception to the general historical flow of things. 

With luv,

BD

The LDS welfare system is a light on a hill the whole world should see. It is about the best welfare system mankind can possibly construct.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Darren10

[Gray]

The author makes some good points, but it's not as if half of the LDS conservatives can just up and become liberals at will. I think political opinions are largely driven by your outlook on life.

[The Nehor]

On 5/10/2017 at 11:58 PM, Darren10 said:

Perhaps racism but much more so in rhe early 20th century than it is now. 

Regadless of time, whenever an employer is forced to pay a minimum amount then it is the poor who get hurt the most. They are typically the most unskilled labor force in the market and therefore offer the least value to a company. In our country the urban poor are largly black. 

No, the poor who cannot get jobs suffer. Those who can make more money. The choice is to either have some make enough to live on and some make nothing or have everyone not make enough to live on. That is assuming minimum wage is liveable, a dubious proposition.

[The Nehor]

On 5/11/2017 at 0:17 AM, Darren10 said:

Question, if you were to take Tillerson's former position as CEO of Exxon, how would you run it and how well do you think you'd do running it? 

"Too large a gap in wage equality seems to inevitably lead to revolution, economic collapse, or corrupt states" 

Question: How well does the middle class do under command economies? The upward mobility of the poor in the US is superb! Indo note that you can find studies showing all sorts of differing results but there is no denying that you and I are far better off than our ancestors were and that goes for all races. 

I think I would do a decent job if forced but my skill set is not ideal. However, you are not going to convince me that CEO skills are rare and therefore should be compensated more. Business managers are a dime a dozen.

You present a false dichotomy that either we go full command economy or we just live with dangerous levels of wage equality. I reject both. Treating every proposal to moderate capitalism as the return of Stalinist Communism is a lazy way of just shutting down the opposition. The propagandists of the Right use it so often that their followers are starting to believe it.

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think I would do a decent job if forced but my skill set is not ideal. However, you are not going to convince me that CEO skills are rare and therefore should be compensated more. Business managers are a dime a dozen.

You present a false dichotomy that either we go full command economy or we just live with dangerous levels of wage equality. I reject both. Treating every proposal to moderate capitalism as the return of Stalinist Communism is a lazy way of just shutting down the opposition. The propagandists of the Right use it so often that their followers are starting to believe it.

Well then my bishop for the past 5 years is a high ranking official at Exxon and I could assure you that you could not even do his job. I know I couldn't. 

Reread my posts. I do not oppose government regulation of the econnomy, just extremely cautoous in its doing so. You are on tje far end of the spectrum advocating a forced "livable wage" for all. I simply say that this hurts the poor hard. 

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, the poor who cannot get jobs suffer. Those who can make more money. The choice is to either have some make enough to live on and some make nothing or have everyone not make enough to live on. That is assuming minimum wage is liveable, a dubious proposition.

"No, the poor who cannot get jobs suffer. Those who can make more money." - OK, can we at least agree that the poor get hurt the most over government minimum wage guarantees? 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Well then my bishop for the past 5 years is a high ranking official at Exxon and I could assure you that you could not even do his job. I know I couldn't. 

Reread my posts. I do not oppose government regulation of the econnomy, just extremely cautoous in its doing so. You are on tje far end of the spectrum advocating a forced "livable wage" for all. I simply say that this hurts the poor hard. 

Because you couldn't do the job you assume I could not either. On what knowledge about me do you make that assumption?

I disagree that coming up with a system where a full workweek would give one a living wage has to hurt others.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Darren10 said:

"No, the poor who cannot get jobs suffer. Those who can make more money." - OK, can we at least agree that the poor get hurt the most over government minimum wage guarantees? 

No.

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Because you couldn't do the job you assume I could not either. On what knowledge about me do you make that assumption?

I disagree that coming up with a system where a full workweek would give one a living wage has to hurt others.

I assure tou you could not. You said you'd do a decent job as CEO of Exxon. What do you know of geological evidence of oil reserves on land and water? Multi million dollar equipment? Laws governing oil drilling on land and off shore, bot donesticaly in each state and in foreign countries? Would gou allow fracking? Shale extraction? How would tou protect oil tankers from overseas piracy? How much do you know of stocks in the oil market? I've driven many people in Houston alone who oncecdid well but recently lost a lot and will likely not recover. How much do you know of contracting work out to build platforms or drills? What software would you use and spprove or reject and why? Decent does not cut it in such a position. It may cut it on much lower positions but as the CEO.

As for my bishop, would tou travel bi weekly for years to various parts of the world? Would you contact the right people and assure thrm that the million dollar projects under your perview are on task? When you approve several hundreds of thousands of dollars in investment into building facilities, how would you know ahead of time that they would work? 

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No.

OK, then guaranteeing a livving wage would help the poor? It didn't work for Detroit, it doesn't work for Chicago, California, Or 

Oregon, or the UK; but, it will work, right? 

 

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

I assure tou you could not. You said you'd do a decent job as CEO of Exxon. What do you know of geological evidence of oil reserves on land and water? Multi million dollar equipment? Laws governing oil drilling on land and off shore, bot donesticaly in each state and in foreign countries? Would gou allow fracking? Shale extraction? How would tou protect oil tankers from overseas piracy? How much do you know of stocks in the oil market? I've driven many people in Houston alone who oncecdid well but recently lost a lot and will likely not recover. How much do you know of contracting work out to build platforms or drills? What software would you use and spprove or reject and why? Decent does not cut it in such a position. It may cut it on much lower positions but as the CEO.

As for my bishop, would tou travel bi weekly for years to various parts of the world? Would you contact the right people and assure thrm that the million dollar projects under your perview are on task? When you approve several hundreds of thousands of dollars in investment into building facilities, how would you know ahead of time that they would work? 

Sure, how hard could it be?

[Gray]

It's true that minimum wage laws lead to more unemployment. That's how businesses get around having to take anything out of their bottom line - they hire fewer employees. I wonder if a universal basic income couldn't get around that effect? 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Gray

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

It's true that minimum wage laws lead to more unemployment. That's how businesses get around having to take anything out of their bottom line - they hire fewer employees. I wonder if a universal basic income couldn't get around that effect? 

It might be able to but we would first need to come up with a way to pay for a universal basic income. There are some interesting ideas out there. I hope it will become feasible.

[Bob Crockett]

On 5/10/2017 at 6:21 AM, Darren10 said:

"Conservatism and libertarianism work great for the economy of Utah, but it can't work in other states with different problems. 

Convervatism and libertarianism are not good for people living in poverty."

To the contrary, I think those are the best systems for poor people.  Minimum wage laws hurt the poor in a big way. For the record I do support a minimum wage standard but I am very cautious about how much it is and expanding it. I absolutely reject the notion that all jobs should pay a "living wage". That mentality has economically devastated the poor.

"the Mormon community has never had a high wealthy gap problem. Utah was and still (mostly) is a Mormon community. The pioneers worked together.  It has more to do with religion than politics. Other religions (Catholics, Evangelicals) don't do a good job.  "

Doesn't this run contrary to the opinion piece? That despite American Mormons embracing conservatism, that the wage gap is still small? Besides, conservatism very much offers upward mobility. Letting people use their own talents and abilities to flourish unleashes human potential in big ways I think.

Libertarianism is far different than conservatism.   Conservatism oppresses the poor and seeks to remove the right to choose.  Joseph Smith was a libertarian.  

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/10/2017 at 4:33 PM, Darren10 said:

There will always be a pay gap. Command economies do not work: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/top-10-reasons-detroit-went-bankrupt/article/2533299

Minumum wage law hurts poor: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=milton+friedman+minimum+wage&view=detail&mid=57236F0C0875D9DE805E57236F0C0875D9DE805E&FORM=VIRE; https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-26/where-a-higher-minimum-wage-hurts-the-poor

Let the markets work and people thrive:

https://panampost.com/editor/2016/03/28/history-minimum-wage-harmed-blacks/

NOTE: I am not a supporter of Laissez faire as that left unchecked naturally leads to slavery but government guaranteeing equality needs to be extraordinarily cautious about interfering in individual and private lives. 

I recommend listening to Chomsky's lectures on the free market fantasies.

Also, any form of governing body that in any way seeks to interfere in private and individual lives should be vehemently rejected with extreme prejudice.

[BlueDreams]

17 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Libertarianism is far different than conservatism.   Conservatism oppresses the poor and seeks to remove the right to choose.  Joseph Smith was a libertarian.  

Well now, THAT seems a stretch. By that use and the meaning of the term back in his time, I would be a libertarian (I'm not). 

 

With luv,

BD

[Darren10]

19 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Libertarianism is far different than conservatism.   Conservatism oppresses the poor and seeks to remove the right to choose.  Joseph Smith was a libertarian.  

Conservatism does no such thing. It offers a tremendous right to choose. Choice whom to work for, how much to work, where to work, when, etc. It also believes in a large amount of feedom for business owners. Whom to hire, how much, how much to pay, etc. there is a lot of Libertarianism on Conservatism. 

Joseph Smith was a wonderful person but a lousey businessman. His choice.  

1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

I recommend listening to Chomsky's lectures on the free market fantasies.

Also, any form of governing body that in any way seeks to interfere in private and individual lives should be vehemently rejected with extreme prejudice.

With all due respect, I have very little to no desire to listen to Chomsky. He offers little value to me. 

Now interfering with private business I think there's a lot of common ground between you and me but as I stated earlier, I am not a supporter of laissez faire. I do support government rgulation but admonish extreme caution in doing so. 

[Darren10]

On 5/15/2017 at 2:09 PM, The Nehor said:

It might be able to but we would first need to come up with a way to pay for a universal basic income. There are some interesting ideas out there. I hope it will become feasible.

And that's the main catch: who's going to pay for it and how? I would love a universal income but do not expect one until after the Second Coming. Forcing universal income will virtually be a a guaranteed disaster. It's only success will be through a willingness to give up one's wealth for others. The only form of that succeeding so far as I know is shen prople choose to completely serve Jesus Christ. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Darren10

[Damien the Leper]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

Conservatism does no such thing. It offers a tremendous right to choose. Choice whom to work for, how much to work, where to work, when, etc. It also believes in a large amount of feedom for business owners. Whom to hire, how much, how much to pay, etc. there is a lot of Libertarianism on Conservatism. 

Joseph Smith was a wonderful person but a lousey businessman. His choice.  

With all due respect, I have very little to no desire to listen to Chomsky. He offers little value to me. 

Now interfering with private business I think there's a lot of common ground between you and me but as I stated earlier, I am not a supporter of laissez faire. I do support government regulation but admonish extreme caution in doing so. 

That's unfortunate. Chomsky does a remarkable job of exposing the free market.

[Darren10]

6 hours ago, Valentinus said:

That's unfortunate. Chomsky does a remarkable job of exposing the free market.

He has made a name for himself, that's for sure.

[MormonVideoGame]

9 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Choice whom to work for, how much to work, where to work, when, etc. It also believes in a large amount of feedom for business owners. Whom to hire, how much, how much to pay, etc. there is a lot of Libertarianism on Conservatism. 

not the situation in the US. The US doesn't have strong labor unions, and the working class doesn't fight back. 

On 5/14/2017 at 3:00 AM, Darren10 said:

 OK, can we at least agree that the poor get hurt the most over government minimum wage guarantees? 

Most studies don't see any evidence that min wage increase affects employment. 

The problem is not the government, the problem is that most people are selfish and take advantage of others. 

Study the history of humanity, the more powerful like to take advantage of the weaker 

Edited May 29, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Damien the Leper]

2 hours ago, Darren10 said:

He has made a name for himself, that's for sure.

Yes. It's because he knows his stuff. I love that Fox and CNN and MSNBC and other media outlets are too coward to attempt to address him. Though it is comical how he can get the ignoramuses of such media and their sheep to squirm.