Receive more light

[RevTestament]

Hello all,

I feel I have been blessed to receive more light once accepting certain things - for example once I just simply accepted JS as a prophet, and therefore that the D & C scripture that the Father has a body is the truth, it seems like the Lord just opened up more scripture to me - more evidence that it is true. More understanding of the nature of "God"/El/Power. 

I was wondering what other examples of this principle other visitors have or wish to share. I am coming to believe this is one of the greatest principles of God and scripture - and governs how we may learn about God.

Please feel free to share. 

With love........

[Ahab]

I think most LDS can relate to how that is and what it feels like, in varying degrees. Even the most basic doctrine we accept as LDS is above and beyond what Christians in other churches have accepted thus far and if they accepted those things they would probably become LDS as we are, or we would consider them to be LDS like us.

In the Church the same thing happens amongst members too, with some members learning some things are true that other members haven't accepted yet. 

The Adam-God doctrine, for example, or even learning what the Adam-God doctrine is. Not everyone understands what is true and what is a misrepresentat ion of the truth, and not all who know the doctrine accept it.

[Tsuzuki]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

In the Church the same thing happens amongst members too, with some members learning some things are true that other members haven't accepted yet.

That's what happened to me.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Hello all,

I feel I have been blessed to receive more light once accepting certain things - for example once I just simply accepted JS as a prophet, and therefore that the D & C scripture that the Father has a body is the truth, it seems like the Lord just opened up more scripture to me - more evidence that it is true. More understanding of the nature of "God"/El/Power. 

I was wondering what other examples of this principle other visitors have or wish to share. I am coming to believe this is one of the greatest principles of God and scripture - and governs how we may learn about God.

Please feel free to share. 

With love........

I have had a couple of major breakthroughs myself recently- it is amazing how that happens.  I saw a oneliner in a quote somewhere on the internet that piqued my interest- it just kind of popped out at me-  and saw that as potentially an important quote- all that was quoted was a few words.  I ordered the book it was in and stopped thinking about it.  The book arrived a week later or so and I could not remember exactly why I ordered it.  I thought I would look at the table of contents so I opened the book to find it.  THE FIRST WORDS I saw was the exact quote that caught my interest and I devoured that page and it made a major breakthrough for me in thinking about the gospel.

The belief that God has a body and is a glorified Human is a key notion and incredibly important to all aspects of our faith

In order for God to hear prayers he has to be an immanent being- a transcendent god could not do that.

I believe that we organize reality through our intelligence as God does- and there are numerous scriptures which back that up in my opinion.  We do it in our tiny worlds while he does it on a macro level organizing and defining our world as we know it- because HE knows it.  We know it in a tiny way while he knows it all, but the kind of "knowledge" we have is HIS kind of knowledge on an embryonic level

Everywhere I look I see it in scripture

Long story short, we agree

 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I have had a couple of major breakthroughs myself recently- it is amazing how that happens.  I saw a oneliner in a quote somewhere on the internet that piqued my interest- it just kind of popped out at me-  and saw that as potentially an important quote- all that was quoted was a few words.  I ordered the book it was in and stopped thinking about it.  The book arrived a week later or so and I could not remember exactly why I ordered it.  I thought I would look at the table of contents so I opened the book to find it.  THE FIRST WORDS I saw was the exact quote that caught my interest and I devoured that page and it made a major breakthrough for me in thinking about the gospel.

The belief that God has a body and is a glorified Human is a key notion and incredibly important to all aspects of our faith

In order for God to hear prayers he has to be an immanent being- a transcendent god could not do that.

I believe that we organize reality through our intelligence as God does- and there are numerous scriptures which back that up in my opinion.  We do it in our tiny worlds while he does it on a macro level organizing and defining our world as we know it- because HE knows it.  We know it in a tiny way while he knows it all, but the kind of "knowledge" we have is HIS kind of knowledge on an embryonic level

Everywhere I look I see it in scripture

Is the latter your recent breakthrough?

We definitely organize reality through our intelligence - those with "greater" intelligence will organize reality different than others, and tuck away insights they want to remember. Others may have different insights. This is one reason no two historians will record the same "history." We just each perceive "reality" a little differently than the next kindred spirit, and we have trained our memories to emphasize different things than the next person. It really is quite an amazing process.

[RevTestament]

Perhaps your breakthrough was that the Father has a grand scheme that appears in scripture through all the various composers?

I find that He does, and that is evidence of one divine author over thousands of years - one of the greatest proofs of God imaginable...

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

We definitely organize reality through our intelligence - those with "greater" intelligence will organize reality different than others, and tuck away insights they want to remember. Others may have different insights. This is one reason no two historians will record the same "history." We just each perceive "reality" a little differently than the next kindred spirit, and we have trained our memories to emphasize different things than the next person. It really is quite an amazing process.

I like the way you said that, beginning with a mention of "our" intelligence.  Our intelligence being the same intelligence as that of our Father, although we don't experience it as completely as he does all of the time. 

I think of it as something each of us has access to all of the time, though, if we can learn to tap into it all of the time. It's something we have from our Father and Mother not only because we are the same kind of being they are but also because we are a part of them and they are a part of us as people who reproduced themselves to create us.

We just need to learn how to learn from them as much as we can.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Ahab

[waveslider]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I was wondering what other examples of this principle other visitors have or wish to share

While I'm not just a visitor, but a member of the Church. I have these types of experiences periodically as I progress in my personal relationship with Heavenly Father, and His Son. It is always amazing to me each and every time, as I receive a little more light, that builds upon what I have already received. I find scripture study, as well as secular study, in light of what is revealed to me by the Spirit Of Truth, almost addicting as I amaze myself of why I wasn't able to see these truths before. It is something that brings studying, pondering and prayer alive for me and makes me want to do it even more, in a synergistic way. It builds my faith so much that I don't trust just intellect alone to settle what is true for me, or not. I only trust Heavenly Father, no matter how many people might believe certain things that are contrary to the truth, as my final say in what is actual truth.

It all started when I received my testimony, not knowing if God was just make believe or not, and actually believing that the BoM was a false, man made deception trying to be passed off as scripture. I was challenged to just read the BoM anyway, and to pray and ask if it were true or not, and to ask if Heavenly Father was real or not, each morning and night and to ask anything else I wanted as normal morning and nighttime prayers. My testimony didn't come right away, but eventually it did come, and it was something that just blew me away! I couldn't possibly see how what I thought I had known about the BoM could exist simultaneously with the answer I was being given in prayer. I remember trying to ask, multiple times, "But if it's true then how come....." Each and every time I tried to ask, I only got as far as saying, "But....," when I would immediately be interrupted and receive the same answer to the question of whatever so called fact I was perplexed about at the time. That answer was, "Don't worry, I'm God. I'm telling you it's true and this is why you have to study the scriptures every day of your life. Eventually you will see how it can be true and how it can coexist with what you are asking about." Sure enough, as I studied I found the falsehoods in the alleged facts I originally believed were true facts, but were rather twisted truth and/or straight out lies, from all the anti-Mormon literature I had read before.

Edited April 25, 2017 by waveslider
Wrong wording

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

While I'm not just a visitor, but a member of the Church. I have these types of experiences periodically as I progress in my personal relationship with Heavenly Father, and His Son. It is always amazing to me each and every time, as I receive a little more light, that builds upon what I have already received. I find scripture study, as well as secular study, in light of what is revealed to me by the Spirit Of Truth, almost addicting as I amaze myself of why I wasn't able to see these truths before. It is something that brings studying, pondering and prayer alive for me and makes me want to do it even more, in a synergistic way. It builds my faith so much that I don't trust just intellect alone to settle what is true for me, or not. I only trust Heavenly Father, no matter how many people might believe certain things that are contrary to the truth, as my final say in what is actual truth.

It all started when I received my testimony, not knowing if God was just make believe or not, and actually believing that the BoM was a false, man made deception trying to be passed off as scripture. I was challenged to just read the BoM anyway, and to pray and ask if it were true or not, and to ask if Heavenly Father was real or not, each morning and night and to ask anything else I wanted as normal morning and nighttime prayers. My testimony didn't come right away, but eventually it did come, and it was something that just blew me away! I couldn't possibly see how what I thought I had known about the BoM could exist simultaneously with the answer I was being given in prayer. I remember trying to ask, multiple times, "But if it's true then how come....." Each and every time I tried to ask, I only got as far as saying, "But....," when I would immediately be interrupted and receive the same answer to the question of whatever so called fact I was perplexed about at the time. That answer was, "Don't worry, I'm God. I'm telling you it's true and this is why you have to study the scriptures every day of your life. Eventually you will see how it can be true and how it can coexist with what you are asking about." Sure enough, as I studied I found the falsehoods in the alleged facts I originally believed were true facts, but were rather twisted truth and/or straight out lies, from all the anti-Mormon literature I had read before.

When I was younger, I probably tried to pray with "but"s a few times. The thing is buts invariably involve some doubt. We are not supposed to go to God in doubt, but believing....nothing wavering. I believe the reason some people don't get an affirmative answer to their prayers about the Book of Mormon has to do with the way they are praying. Are they praying with conviction to follow it if they get an affirmative answer. Or are they praying with the attitude that "gosh I see no evidence for the stuff in this book, so tell me if it is true" kind of thing. I know while I was relatively inactive in college I started out reading the BoM with the intent of finding its faults, if any(thinking there were), and then if I found none thinking that it would bolster my testimony. That is just not the right attitude of prayer. When I finally many years later read the book and prayed whether it was true, it was in the attitude that I would follow it and Jesus, if I received an answer which I did. From there my personal witness experiences have continued to multiply. But, I believe I needed to gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon first. It is essentially a foundational document of this Church. Not believing it is kind of like saying I'm an American, but I don't believe in the Bill of Rights. I joined the Church based on my testimony of the Bible - quite different from many others. While I loved the Church, I think my testimony was kind of disabled. I needed to enable it.

Thanks everybody for your input so far. Specific examples is what I am hoping readers will bring to the thread.

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Thanks everybody for your input so far. Specific examples is what I am hoping readers will bring to the thread.

Examples of receiving more light, right?

More than some others have received so far, I presume.

On this board I often notice some examples of me receiving more light than some others have when I am challenged with a CFR or a refutation of what I have said. Something I know through the power of the Holy Ghost that somebody else apparently hasn't learned yet. And the challenges often come from other members of the Church, as well as from people who are not members. And so I then do what I can to share the light I have with those challenge me.

I think that is an example of receiving more light than some other people.

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Examples of receiving more light, right?

More than some others have received so far, I presume.

On this board I often notice some examples of me receiving more light than some others have when I am challenged with a CFR or a refutation of what I have said. Something I know through the power of the Holy Ghost that somebody else apparently hasn't learned yet. And the challenges often come from other members of the Church, as well as from people who are not members. And so I then do what I can to share the light I have with those challenge me.

I think that is an example of receiving more light than some other people.

I appreciate what you are saying Ahab. I do not always agree with other members - it is often because they believe they are following something some general authority said. I on the other hand have always had issues with unquestioningly following authority. Especially if I feel that authority conflicts in some way with scripture or previous light I have received. In other words I am willing to explore what I perceive I have received as light despite what others may say or think. I am not saying this to encourage making challenges to the Church. I normally accept what general authorities say, and I don't wish to derail my own thread . However, I apply the same standard to General Authorities as I do to everyone else. They do not get a special pass with me except when exercising keys of the temporal church. That is their exclusive domain. If they expect me to examine their side of the evidence in investigating the church, then I feel it incumbent on myself to examine scripture and other viewpoints to what they are saying if it seems not to comport with my understanding of scripture and the gospel. In other words I feel my humble prayer concerning what they say should be answered, just like my prayer on the Book of Mormon or any other truth I am presented with. This thing about not challenging leaders even if they are wrong is frankly not scriptural. The Lord said to test the prophets. Unfortunately, we are all sinners, and sinners committing abuse and performing sinful, unchaste deeds can sometimes work themselves into positions in which they do not truly belong. Joseph Smith, despite his faults, passes my tests of a true prophet. Not all subsequent GAs have met my test. This does not mean that the Church is untrue... it just means they did not have the gift of prophecy....not to fear them. A specific example is the stone of Daniel 2. Do I merely follow what prior leaders have said, or do I examine it against scripture? Like everything else I do, I examine it against scripture and pray about it. My prayer about it was answered many years ago. However, even though I believe differently than others, I don't feel what I perceive to be a mistake is dangerous to their salvation. If they go on believing what they have been told, they will be saved just the same and receive the same glory even if they believed me. Hence, it is not important for me to try to gain their belief or to try to convince them to believe like me. This is true for many aspects of the scriptures. I just go down my own path irrespective of others, and have to be content with that. I feel that many come across some point of disagreement, and that becomes some reason to break off from the church and start their own splinter group - John Dehlin, the Jeffs, and many others. I have faith that where the Church has made mistakes, the Lord will correct them. All other groups which have split off from the Church had to reorganize - because they do not represent the original Church Yeshua restored. I merely point out my viewpoint, and I believe in the end the truth will prevail. The Lord is patient. He has sent many who have been rejected, and killed. Our Savior set this example. So Ahab, if you believe you have received "more truth" than someone else, the key is patience. If that is true, are they in jeopardy? Or are you just on a slightly different personal path than them? Are you content just to live that truth, and to act as a quiet leader by example? If it is truth, do you believe that even if you don't convince anyone else of it, that it will win out in the end? 

I know personally, I am willing to hear your "truths" but don't expect me just to jump on the "Ahab bandwagon" my friend. If you air it on this thread prepare to be tested - the same I do with all other truth principles with which I am presented.  

 

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I appreciate what you are saying Ahab. I do not always agree with other members - it is often because they believe they are following something some general authority said. I on the other hand have always had issues with unquestioningly following authority. Especially if I feel that authority conflicts in some way with scripture or previous light I have received. In other words I am willing to explore what I perceive I have received as light despite what others may say or think. I am not saying this to encourage making challenges to the Church. I normally accept what general authorities say, and I don't wish to derail my own thread . However, I apply the same standard to General Authorities as I do to everyone else. They do not get a special pass with me except when exercising keys of the temporal church. That is their exclusive domain. If they expect me to examine their side of the evidence in investigating the church, then I feel it incumbent on myself to examine scripture and other viewpoints to what they are saying if it seems not to comport with my understanding of scripture and the gospel. In other words I feel my humble prayer concerning what they say should be answered, just like my prayer on the Book of Mormon or any other truth I am presented with. This thing about not challenging leaders even if they are wrong is frankly not scriptural. The Lord said to test the prophets. Unfortunately, we are all sinners, and sinners committing abuse and performing sinful, unchaste deeds can sometimes work themselves into positions in which they do not truly belong. Joseph Smith, despite his faults, passes my tests of a true prophet. Not all subsequent GAs have met my test. This does not mean that the Church is untrue... it just means they did not have the gift of prophecy....not to fear them. A specific example is the stone of Daniel 2. Do I merely follow what prior leaders have said, or do I examine it against scripture? Like everything else I do, I examine it against scripture and pray about it. My prayer about it was answered many years ago. However, even though I believe differently than others, I don't feel what I perceive to be a mistake is dangerous to their salvation. If they go on believing what they have been told, they will be saved just the same and receive the same glory even if they believed me. Hence, it is not important for me to try to gain their belief or to try to convince them to believe like me. This is true for many aspects of the scriptures. I just go down my own path irrespective of others, and have to be content with that. I feel that many come across some point of disagreement, and that becomes some reason to break off from the church and start their own splinter group - John Dehlin, the Jeffs, and many others. I have faith that where the Church has made mistakes, the Lord will correct them. All other groups which have split off from the Church had to reorganize - because they do not represent the original Church Yeshua restored. I merely point out my viewpoint, and I believe in the end the truth will prevail. The Lord is patient. He has sent many who have been rejected, and killed. Our Savior set this example. So Ahab, if you believe you have received "more truth" than someone else, the key is patience. If that is true, are they in jeopardy? Or are you just on a slightly different personal path than them? Are you content just to live that truth, and to act as a quiet leader by example? If it is truth, do you believe that even if you don't convince anyone else of it, that it will win out in the end? 

I know personally, I am willing to hear your "truths" but don't expect me just to jump on the "Ahab bandwagon" my friend. If you air it on this thread prepare to be tested - the same I do with all other truth principles with which I am presented.  

 

I appreciate everything you said and can find no fault in any of your statements. And yes I am willing and even excited about living in the light I have received even though there will never be a time when everybody else agrees with me. There will always be opposition and there will also always be various degrees of glory, even with people becoming more glorious as they receive more light and truth.  Not everyone is in the same place, intellectually or intelligently speaking, and there will never be a time when everyone is. There will always be spiritual babies and it is up to each one to mature in intelligence to the degree they each choose to be.

My realization of the need for authority from our Lord in our Lord's church is something that prompted me to seek it and find it, but we're all still learning whether or not we have any authority in the Lord's church. I don't think I've ever found anything wrong with what Church leaders have taught, though, when trying to look at things from their perspective. Just some things I would do or phrase differently than them, if I were in their place. So I still can sustain them and support them as people who have more authority in our Lord's church than I do.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I appreciate everything you said and can find no fault in any of your statements. And yes I am willing and even excited about living in the light I have received even though there will never be a time when everybody else agrees with me. There will always be opposition and there will also always be various degrees of glory, even with people becoming more glorious as they receive more light and truth.  Not everyone is in the same place, intellectually or intelligently speaking, and there will never be a time when everyone is. There will always be spiritual babies and it is up to each one to mature in intelligence to the degree they each choose to be.

My realization of the need for authority from our Lord in our Lord's church is something that prompted me to seek it and find it, but we're all still learning whether or not we have any authority in the Lord's church. I don't think I've ever found anything wrong with what Church leaders have taught, though, when trying to look at things from their perspective. Just some things I would do or phrase differently than them, if I were in their place. So I still can sustain them and support them as people who have more authority in our Lord's church than I do.

I think we agree that the Presidency doesn't have an exclusive with regard to the truth. I sustain them too because I see no fault in our current presidency. I've always rather liked Monson. I like Eyring and Uchtdorf. I also sustained President Hinckley even though I did not always agree with everything he said. I think the Church has been running afoul of the doctrine of infallibility somewhat. They don't want to say they are infallible, but they seem to be erecting all kinds of doctrine around themselves to protect their infallibility. The thing is being in a position of authority does not make one infallible. The truth about the LDS Church is that members have a right to object and not to sustain their leaders. That right is preserved for a reason - one reason is because men are fallible. Opposing reasons have a right to be heard according to Church law. There seems to be a certain reticence to acknowledge that, but I am digressing from the point of this thread. My point I believe is that all members of the Church are free to seek truth, and to pray about it, and to receive light according to their faithfulness and righteous desire. If the Church changes that, then it will become like the RCC with leaders who cannot be questioned, and errant pontiffs which subsequently get declared as anti-popes rather than to admit that the office didn't confer infallibility. The point of this Church is that Christ is the head, and he will answer our humble prayers - not the president. We are all free to seek the truth without fear of excommunication. There is no one president who is the fount of all truth - even Joseph Smith. i love Joseph Smith and know he was a true prophet, but he didn't understand everything which is to happen - plain and simple. More is to be revealed.

I agree with you that there "will also always be various degrees of glory, even with people becoming more glorious as they receive more light and truth." That is really the point of this thread. I believe there are probably as many "degrees" of glory as there are people. We will all receive our reward according to our works. Yes, there are main degrees of glory, but within these I believe some will receive more than others. Therefore, I seek after truth and to live truth irrespective of what others say or teach. If I receive what they teach as truth, then I incorporate it into my life. If not, I run the risk of sinning or committing error, or falling behind if i am wrong. Therefore, I better be darn sure if I don't receive something previously taught by a general authority for my personal life. It can not only affect me, but members of my family, whom the Lord has made me responsible for. The plain truth is general authorities are generally telling us what we need to hear and apply in our lives. Most of the things I believe differently than some GA has said just really aren't too important in my personal life - for instance whether I believe Parley Pratt that Heavenly Father married Mary. It certainly is not a sin to disbelieve that. The GAs generally get things right. However, I am not afraid to pursue things they haven't taught or things I just see a little differently.

Cheers, and thanks for your thoughts

Edited April 25, 2017 by RevTestament

[Maidservant]

Yes, but the things I learn actually rather disconcert me in the beginning at least, and I feel rather alone.  I find that I cannot discuss them with--anyone.  If I am plain, then I run the risk of hurting others, because the things I have learned were rather painful because they shattered what I *thought* I knew and that bewilderment is not the funnest position to be in, so I can't do that for someone not ready for it.  It's also not my job.  Even when my kids ask me questions, I often say, "Do you want me to say what I know, or what I'm supposed to tell you?"  ("Mom!!!")

On the upside, once I've integrated the new place I arrive at (after weeks? years?), I do feel stronger and more at peace and more independent in the sphere in which I've been placed and the things I know allow me to act without fear of man or devil.

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Yes, but the things I learn actually rather disconcert me in the beginning at least, and I feel rather alone.  I find that I cannot discuss them with--anyone.  If I am plain, then I run the risk of hurting others, because the things I have learned were rather painful because they shattered what I *thought* I knew and that bewilderment is not the funnest position to be in, so I can't do that for someone not ready for it.  It's also not my job.  Even when my kids ask me questions, I often say, "Do you want me to say what I know, or what I'm supposed to tell you?"  ("Mom!!!")

On the upside, once I've integrated the new place I arrive at (after weeks? years?), I do feel stronger and more at peace and more independent in the sphere in which I've been placed and the things I know allow me to act without fear of man or devil.

Hello Maidservant

I for one will not yell at you for your doubts. Although doubts aren't the point of this thread. The point of the thread is how to pursue truth. My theorem is that when we decide to accept Christ and scripture on principle, He can reward us with more light.

Pursuing doubts, of course, just usually breeds more doubts, which is not the point of this thread. However, feel free to PM me concerning your doubts or troubling info and I will do my best to respond.  

I certainly have had doubts about the Church, but one way to overcome them is to exercise faith in the scriptures we have, and to pray about them - for understanding, for guidance, etc. This is what Daniel did in praying about Jeremiah. He wanted to know how long his people would be in exile, and thus he was given a vision in Daniel 9. 

You sound as if you have doubts about Church History matters, and I would appreciate it if those were aired on a different thread.  

However, let me assure you, that you are not alone in your doubts. I've just learned to accept that the Church is not perfect. Perhaps, what you are experiencing is what I call the Santa Claus effect. Learning that what we were told as kids and teenagers about the Church is not the complete truth or may even be incorrect is like learning there is no Santa Clause. It's not the end of the world. There is still light at the end of the tunnel. If we can hang on to the truths of the gospel and the light it brings into our lives, we can survive the doubts. Hope this helps...

[Guest]

19 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Hello all,

I feel I have been blessed to receive more light once accepting certain things - for example once I just simply accepted JS as a prophet, and therefore that the D & C scripture that the Father has a body is the truth, it seems like the Lord just opened up more scripture to me - more evidence that it is true. More understanding of the nature of "God"/El/Power. 

I was wondering what other examples of this principle other visitors have or wish to share. I am coming to believe this is one of the greatest principles of God and scripture - and governs how we may learn about God.

Please feel free to share. 

With love........

When I joined the Church 38 years ago in just four days from today, I went on a quest. I had already read most of the Book of Mormon having received the revelation that it was true. The very day I received the Book of Mormon from a friend, while in the Army living in Germany...I had duty that night (from 7:00PM to 7:00AM, I read the first five books in the Book of Mormon, and the Spirit bore witness to me that it was the word of God. Then I asked my friend for every single word ever printed by the Church, of course I had no idea what I was asking for. But as is my nature, when I want to understand something, I study everything I can get my hands on...you know, "study it out in my mind" as scripture tells us. Thankfully this early study has sustained me for almost four decades. I am a student of scripture, and I am unashamed to declare that I am a believer. I used to buy so many books, my wife made a rule, no more books until you read all you have. So I did, and have read over 100 books that address doctrine, explain scripture, and just feel good books by many General Authorities...everything I could find by Neal A Maxwell, Hugh Nibley, and every book I could find about the early Prophets. My favorite is "rough Stone Rolling", by Richard Bushman. The more we study scripture, the more light God illuminate our souls. 

[Maidservant]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Hello Maidservant

I for one will not yell at you for your doubts. Although doubts aren't the point of this thread. The point of the thread is how to pursue truth. My theorem is that when we decide to accept Christ and scripture on principle, He can reward us with more light.

Pursuing doubts, of course, just usually breeds more doubts, which is not the point of this thread. However, feel free to PM me concerning your doubts or troubling info and I will do my best to respond.  

I certainly have had doubts about the Church, but one way to overcome them is to exercise faith in the scriptures we have, and to pray about them - for understanding, for guidance, etc. This is what Daniel did in praying about Jeremiah. He wanted to know how long his people would be in exile, and thus he was given a vision in Daniel 9. 

You sound as if you have doubts about Church History matters, and I would appreciate it if those were aired on a different thread.  

However, let me assure you, that you are not alone in your doubts. I've just learned to accept that the Church is not perfect. Perhaps, what you are experiencing is what I call the Santa Claus effect. Learning that what we were told as kids and teenagers about the Church is not the complete truth or may even be incorrect is like learning there is no Santa Clause. It's not the end of the world. There is still light at the end of the tunnel. If we can hang on to the truths of the gospel and the light it brings into our lives, we can survive the doubts. Hope this helps...

Hi, Rev, thanks for your kind reply.  I re-read what I said, and I was vague, so I see how you got where you did.

I have never had doubts :).  Thankfully, my parents taught me to trust my questions, and that God would answer me.  That is the process I am describing.  I have never experienced my questions as doubts--simply the next place I am going.

(No, not referring to Church history in my reply.  Generally speaking, and in a word, could care less.)  More like . . . who we were before we came here, why we are here, where we are going . . . meaning of scriptures (especially when I understand them to mean something much different than what I have heard) . . . meaning of being human . . . meaning of being like God (or a God) . . . the meaning of being a woman . . . the meaning of the temple symbols . . . the meaning of my trials . . . etc.  For example, the things I know about women and the Priesthood I have only been able to talk about out loud for, say, minimum 2 years.  Before that it would have been too shocking for people.  But now I hear it talked more from other people, so I have loosened my mouth as well.  It's not that I fear what people will do to me . . . but just what is the point of mentioning anything to anyone that isn't for them?  It's just lonely inside.

I think, yes, a lot of it has to do with not being children any more and having our eyes opened from that.

Speaking of light being disconcerting . . . isn't it?  Isn't it blinding at times?

Edited April 25, 2017 by Maidservant

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Hi, Rev, thanks for your kind reply.  I re-read what I said, and I was vague, so I see how you got where you did.

I have never had doubts :).  Thankfully, my parents taught me to trust my questions, and that God would answer me.  That is the process I am describing.  I have never experienced my questions as doubts--simply the next place I am going.

(No, not referring to Church history in my reply.  Generally speaking, and in a word, could care less.)  More like . . . who we were before we came here, why we are here, where we are going . . . meaning of scriptures (especially when I understand them to mean something much different than what I have heard) . . . meaning of being human . . . meaning of being like God (or a God) . . . the meaning of being a woman . . . the meaning of the temple symbols . . . the meaning of my trials . . . etc.  For example, the things I know about women and the Priesthood I have only been able to talk about out loud for, say, minimum 2 years.  Before that it would have been too shocking for people.  But now I hear it talked more from other people, so I have loosened my mouth as well.  It's not that I fear what people will do to me . . . but just what is the point of mentioning anything to anyone that isn't for them?  It's just lonely inside.

I think, yes, a lot of it has to do with not being children any more and having our eyes opened from that.

Speaking of light being disconcerting . . . isn't it?  Isn't it blinding at times?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I have answered my questions about who we were before we came here for the most part. Like you my answers are different than what I have heard or been traditionally taught, and I am quite fine with that. It doesn't really distress me, except that I get frustrated by church members who don't accept it - but, that comes with the territory. I cannot force them to believe like me, nor do I wish to. It is just kind of a lonely place to be. I even get strange looks from my kids... But I think my life has prepared me for that too.

As for women and the priesthood. The priesthood is more responsibility than anything else. It is not about personal power nor privilege. Women seem to naturally have more concern for others than men, so in that sense I believe are more naturally inclined to all things priesthood. However, I have to say that for whatever reason the Lord has made the keys of the priesthood a male thing. Now I am about to say something very controversial, however. I know the Church teaches that men are men and women are women forever. However, if the Lord will make all things new, is it possible that women may be men on another world? Just a thought. They may still be bound by sealing ties to prior souls, but gender roles reversed. This would certainly give women the opportunity to live the male priesthood. I am not teaching that is true mind you - it is just a thought that has occurred to me over the last year or so. I cannot say I have received any direction on that thought. I personally believe that I lived previously on another world, and that Yeshua did too, and that I lived there as a male, although I don't have any specific memories of it. And I believe I will live on another world after this one, but will not be subject to the beast of Revelation. The only way to progress imho is to overcome those trials you speak of.

I wouldn't say light is blinding either. I have enjoyed my journey on a personal level. I love to learn, and continuing to make new discoveries and have new insights is continually fascinating and exciting to me. I love that aspect of it. Yet, with knowledge comes responsibility - now I am sounding like spiderman.... But that is true. If you seek after the oracles of God, you must be willing to live those oracles. That is a much more daunting task than learning about them. It is not blinding, but it is perhaps a little scary. You have to learn to rely on God, and be fine with whatever God's will is. That is truly a challenge. Sometimes, I don't like God's will. It feels unfair. Yet, to follow God one must learn to put aside self. I don't want to say this because this is what I have to do next... continually. 

Thanks for contributing to the thread Maidservant. 

[waveslider]

23 hours ago, RevTestament said:

When I was younger, I probably tried to pray with "but"s a few times. The thing is buts invariably involve some doubt. We are not supposed to go to God in doubt, but believing....nothing wavering. I believe the reason some people don't get an affirmative answer to their prayers about the Book of Mormon has to do with the way they are praying. Are they praying with conviction to follow it if they get an affirmative answer. Or are they praying with the attitude that "gosh I see no evidence for the stuff in this book, so tell me if it is true" kind of thing. I know while I was relatively inactive in college I started out reading the BoM with the intent of finding its faults, if any(thinking there were), and then if I found none thinking that it would bolster my testimony. That is just not the right attitude of prayer. When I finally many years later read the book and prayed whether it was true, it was in the attitude that I would follow it and Jesus, if I received an answer which I did. From there my personal witness experiences have continued to multiply. But, I believe I needed to gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon first. It is essentially a foundational document of this Church. Not believing it is kind of like saying I'm an American, but I don't believe in the Bill of Rights. I joined the Church based on my testimony of the Bible - quite different from many others. While I loved the Church, I think my testimony was kind of disabled. I needed to enable it.

Thanks everybody for your input so far. Specific examples is what I am hoping readers will bring to the thread.

I guess I wasn't clear about my experience that I related. Just to clear it up, this experience with the, "but," questions all happened in one prayer, not consecutive prayers at different times. Prior to that prayer I wasn't even sure if God was even real. Since then I always turn to Father in Heaven with a believing attitude, especially when I present my doubts to Him. I know He will never steer me wrong. With the love I have experienced, and still do on a regular basis, coming from Him, I can never doubt His sincerity and divinity. Basically this example I related was one specific example, and I did gain an answer contrary to what I personally believed about the BoM. I gained that answer because I was open to the fact that I don't know everything and therefore I was willing to move toward the truth rather than trying to bend the truth to move toward me, not because I already believed.

Thank you for this thread. I like it.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, waveslider said:

I guess I wasn't clear about my experience that I related. Just to clear it up, this experience with the, "but," questions all happened in one prayer, not consecutive prayers at different times. Prior to that prayer I wasn't even sure if God was even real. Since then I always turn to Father in Heaven with a believing attitude, especially when I present my doubts to Him. I know He will never steer me wrong. With the love I have experienced, and still do on a regular basis, coming from Him, I can never doubt His sincerity and divinity. Basically this example I related was one specific example, and I did gain an answer contrary to what I personally believed about the BoM. I gained that answer because I was open to the fact that I don't know everything and therefore I was willing to move toward the truth rather than trying to bend the truth to move toward me, not because I already believed.

Thank you for this thread. I like it.

You are quite welcome  I just thought it would give the opportunity to express and show how one can grow in the gospel. I didn't misunderstand you - I was just speaking from my own experience. I think I probably prayed about various "doubts" or things I was unsure of a few times. I don't think this kind of prayer ever got directly answered. I prayed about the atonement for many years - not because I really doubted it, but because I didn't feel I understood it. That was a long process. I think God did finally answer these many prayers, but through life experiences. In other words He was showing me rather than telling me. That took some time, although I think my original epiphany may have been a direct type of answer. I can't even remember how it happened. It was like a lightbulb turning on in my head.

From your posts I gather your answer from God was an affirmation that the BoM is true scripture. It sounds to me like you kind of had a similar experience as mine with your "buts." God didn't directly answer them. You kind of grew or matured into your answers, and perhaps life showed you the answers. I know when I finally believed I fully understood the answer to my prayer of many years, it was much more complete than just getting "told" an answer. It was a complete life experience and understanding of the atonement in a way that made the answer sing in my soul. It was like now I understand! Now I know why God did things in this manner!

Rather than the "show me" type of prayer, I think Heavenly Father appreciates the humble seeker who is willing to serve, if the Lord shows him/her the truth and what to do. "Show me" can be kind of selfish.

[Avatar4321]

I was once reading something president Kimball said that really opened my eyes on a matter. The next day I was listening to Glenn Beck which I  rarely had a chance to then. I was shocked when he said verbatim what president Kimball said.

That got me thinking about how the same revelation comes to multiple people at the same time. Made me think about how light works and perhaps the same revelation is sent out generally and all those who are prepared at the particular frequency

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I was once reading something president Kimball said that really opened my eyes on a matter. The next day I was listening to Glenn Beck which I  rarely had a chance to then. I was shocked when he said verbatim what president Kimball said.

That got me thinking about how the same revelation comes to multiple people at the same time. Made me think about how light works and perhaps the same revelation is sent out generally and all those who are prepared at the particular frequency

Don't you know Glenn Beck steals all his best material from the GAs?

[Stargazer]

Because receiving greater light and knowledge are so important to me, among my favorite scriptures are these:

Alma 12:9-10

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: 
It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless 
they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart 
only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto 
the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they 
give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth 
the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his 
heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it 
is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them 
in full.

D&C 121:45-46

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the 
household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; 
then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the 
doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from 
heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an 
unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall 
be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow
unto thee forever and ever.

D&C 50:24

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and 
continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth 
brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

On 4/25/2017 at 4:40 PM, Maidservant said:

Hi, Rev, thanks for your kind reply.  I re-read what I said, and I was vague, so I see how you got where you did.

I have never had doubts :).  Thankfully, my parents taught me to trust my questions, and that God would answer me.  That is the process I am describing.  I have never experienced my questions as doubts--simply the next place I am going.

(No, not referring to Church history in my reply.  Generally speaking, and in a word, could care less.)  More like . . . who we were before we came here, why we are here, where we are going . . . meaning of scriptures (especially when I understand them to mean something much different than what I have heard) . . . meaning of being human . . . meaning of being like God (or a God) . . . the meaning of being a woman . . . the meaning of the temple symbols . . . the meaning of my trials . . . etc.  For example, the things I know about women and the Priesthood I have only been able to talk about out loud for, say, minimum 2 years.  Before that it would have been too shocking for people.  But now I hear it talked more from other people, so I have loosened my mouth as well.  It's not that I fear what people will do to me . . . but just what is the point of mentioning anything to anyone that isn't for them?  It's just lonely inside.

I think, yes, a lot of it has to do with not being children any more and having our eyes opened from that.

Speaking of light being disconcerting . . . isn't it?  Isn't it blinding at times?

This reminds me of a new book I have acquired.  It's by Sheri Dew, and is quite new, released just a few days ago, titled "Worth the Wrestle", and chapter one is "Questions are Good".

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Because receiving greater light and knowledge are so important to me, among my favorite scriptures are these:

Alma 12:9-10

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: 
It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless 
they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart 
only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto 
the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they 
give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth 
the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his 
heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it 
is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them 
in full.

D&C 121:45-46

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the 
household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; 
then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the 
doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from 
heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an 
unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall 
be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow
unto thee forever and ever.

D&C 50:24

24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and 
continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth 
brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

 

Thanks for those! Aren't scriptures awesome?

Here is one I like - it's not as direct but it says a lot:

Proverbs 25:2

2 It is the glory of God to ^aconceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.