The Mormon church in the end times.

[probablyHagoth7]

On 3/28/2017 at 8:05 AM, snowflake said:

Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?

Can't speak to how others view things, but I believe the Restoration is one branch or tribe of Israel, while other branches of Christianity (and Judaism) represent other branches/tribes of Israel.

Edited March 29, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

From the Bible Dictionary published by the church:

"...And in another sense Israel means the true believer in Christ, as explained by Paul (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12). The name Israel is therefore variously used to denote (1) the man Jacob, (2) the literal descendants of Jacob, and (3) the true believers in Christ, regardless of their lineage or geographical location."

Edited March 29, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Garden Girl said:

Ah yes... the rain... I was just bemoaning yet another day of rain when I got up this morning... this makes about two weeks of gray, damp days.  So coastal Oregon is not for everyone either... When I wake up, I can hear the rain on the skylight and sometimes want just to snuggle down... but Bob (the Cat) won't stand for that because he wants me to get up and feed him... and he's relentless, so I stumble down the hallway after him... and so the day begins.

GG

Heh, I think the people who are the happiest in this environment are the people who actually like the rain. I think it's relaxing and I appreciate how green everything is because of it. But I do like it when it doesn't rain, too. I like riding in the mountains through the forests with my quad, and my whole family on quads, without any of us getting muddy. So I think the key is to like the weather both ways, whether or not it is raining.

[snowflake]

50 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

From the Bible Dictionary published by the church:

"...And in another sense Israel means the true believer in Christ, as explained by Paul (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12). The name Israel is therefore variously used to denote (1) the man Jacob, (2) the literal descendants of Jacob, and (3) the true believers in Christ, regardless of their lineage or geographical location."

As you know context can be everything in the Bible. Which of the scriptures above would you say refers to 3?  I submit none.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

From the Bible Dictionary published by the church:

"...And in another sense Israel means the true believer in Christ, as explained by Paul (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12). The name Israel is therefore variously used to denote (1) the man Jacob, (2) the literal descendants of Jacob, and (3) the true believers in Christ, regardless of their lineage or geographical location."

The continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned to extinction, and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds?

[probablyHagoth7]

6 minutes ago, snowflake said:

The continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned to extinction, and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds?

God loves them. And keeps his promises. In his own timing.

[probablyHagoth7]

30 minutes ago, snowflake said:

As you know context can be everything in the Bible. Which of the scriptures above would you say refers to 3?  I submit none.

I respectfully disagree. 

There are genuine believers (at least a mustard-seed remnant) in almost any body of *professed* believers. Which is in essence what those 3 passages were saying about believers 2000 years ago.

I suspect we're saying the same thing...perhaps just talking past one another initially. I will try to type slowly so the Canadian accent doesn't trip us up. :0)

Edited March 29, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[mfbukowski]

This is what this Mormon believes about the end times:

There WILL be "end times"

It's gonna be a big mess but we will get through it either on this side of the veil or the other.

Thus ends Bukowski eschatology.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thus ends Bukowski eschatology.

Over already?

I thought we were supposed to have about 3.5 more years of this stuff.

[theplains]

On 28/03/2017 at 10:05 AM, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/62792449/Coming-of-the-Lord has some ideas of what some Latter-day Saints
believed and taught about the endtimes.

Thanks,
Jim

[mfbukowski]

On 3/31/2017 at 9:27 AM, Ahab said:

Over already?

I thought we were supposed to have about 3.5 more years of this stuff.

Unfortunately there is not a lot to be said about the philosophical justification for eschatology except maybe on how it adds social urgency to getting the gospel out.  That is how it has worked in the past.  I think most folks are interested in their own subjective eschatology which will definitely come within a hundred years or so for all of us.

So I guess it is always true that the second coming will come to all of us in "this generation".

Our temple president is fond of telling folks that the Adam and Eve story is allegorical and that we should all think of ourselves as Adam and Eve and apply the story to ourselves.

Maybe that is what we should do with the "end times" as well.  "Get your act together because the Kingdom of Heaven wins in the end" is not a bad slogan for believers in Christ, literal end times or not.   We will all go through tribulations and then we die- it is what happens after that - that is the interesting question.  

As usual the belief itself becomes our personal reality and is what is important as we construct our little worlds.

Edited April 1, 2017 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

On 3/28/2017 at 10:58 AM, snowflake said:

You are correct in your assessment of the Catholics and replacement theology, not sure on the Protestants but coming from you I'm sure you are correct.  I've never investigated this LDS idea of two separate phases. I haven't read the LDS prophets' writings about Independence becoming the New Jerusalem. Any resources online you suggest? I don't see replacement theology as being correct when I read through Revelation.  What is the LDS take on the 12 tribes and the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.

The 144,000 with 12,000 from each tribe except Dan of Rev 7 are now sealed unto the Lord. The 144,000 of Rev 14, are yet to come.

On 3/28/2017 at 1:20 PM, snowflake said:

So what about the Jews today who live in Israel (or anywhere) but deny Yeshua. They have historically been known as Jews or Israelites.  It seems to me that this is the Israel spoken of in the book of Revelation. People who have accepted Christ and who have covenanted to follow him are historically know as Christians. Revelation speaks of a literal Israel and a literal 12 tribes of Israel showing up somehow. Do you think that the church has spiritually replaced Israel as God's chosen people? and Israel is irrelevant in the end times or has been disregarded by God? Sorry bluebell just trying to understand your take.  

The Jews are not "Israel" although they fancy themselves that way. They are Judah. The tribes are dispersed - some among the Gentiles - mostly Ephraim. Most of what are left are trapped in Muslim countries. Gentiles who are not genetically related to Ephraim are grafted into Israel by accepting the Lord. 

On 3/28/2017 at 1:25 PM, snowflake said:

Do you think that the Jews will rebuild their temple on temple mount like it was with the animal sacrifices and the Levites running the show? (Solomon's temple). Or do you think it will be the Mormon version with non-Jewish men and women and teenagers performing baptisms for the dead and the other Mormon ordinances?

I don't believe a temple for animal sacrifice will ever get rebuilt. About 500 years in the future Jerusalem might see an LDS temple on temple mount. A lot has to happen between now and then - most of it difficult.

[RevTestament]

On 3/29/2017 at 11:05 AM, snowflake said:

Yeah I see where you are coming from, I would agree that the span from the decree to return and rebuild the city of Jerusalem in Ezra 7 is the correct timeline. However in Daniel 9: The messiah was cut off after 69 weeks. But Jesus seems to be alluding to the end times. Clearly 2000 years ago were not the end times.  It is my understanding that the 70th week prophecy was not fulfilled when the temple was destroyed in 70.a.d. so it must take place in the future. I believe that all eyes should be on the country of Israel (and the Jews God's chosen people) for the end times scenario to take place. Thoughts?

 [26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Modern Evangelicals have largely been imbued with Darby's errant eschatology. There is no future to this vision. It's done except the very last phrase. Here is the truth of Rev 9:

Now let us determine when the 70 weeks start. After Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, the Hebrews returned to Jerusalem in two main migrations, but Daniel stayed in the capitol of the Persians. The first migration under Zerubbabel had commission to rebuild the Temple [known as the Temple of Zerubbabel]. The commission came through king Cyrus of Persia in his first year to build an house at Jerusalem to the LORD God. Cyrus the king brought the vessels of gold and silver king Nebuchadnezzar had taken, and gave them to Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah (Zerubbabel), to be taken to Jerusalem. Ezra 1. Zerubbabel led forth the families listed in Ezra 2 to Judah. By the seventh month the people were in their cities, and gathered in Jerusalem where Zerubbabel directed them first in building an altar. Then according to the grant of Cyrus king of Persia, they began collecting wood and materials to rebuild the Temple. Ezra 3. Apparently the rebuilding effort stopped or slowed during the eight year reign of Cambyses. In the sixth month of the second year of Darius the spirit of the LORD was stirred in Zerubbabel through the words of Haggai, to finish the Temple. Apparently, by this time Zerubbabel was recognized as governor of Judah. Haggai 1. The Temple was finished under Darius, king of Persia (who renewed the decree of Cyrus or possibly Darius II), on the third day of the month Adar in the sixth year of Darius. Ezra 6. The second migration returned under Ezra, the scribe, who left Babylon the first day of the first month in the seventh year of king Artaxerxes, who ruled after Darius I, and therefore after Daniel's account. Ezra 7:7-9. They were commissioned by the LORD and king Artaxerxes to beautify the Temple by a letter found in Ezra 7.

However, in the twentieth year of king Artaxerxes, Nehemiah learned of the troublous times of his people: "The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire." Nehemiah 1:1-3. King Artaxerxes saw his troubled countenance, and Nehemiah told him it was because Jerusalem lay waste, and the gates lay burnt. So the king prepared a letter to the keeper of his forest to cut timber for the rebuilding, and sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem. Nehemiah 2:1-8. When he arrived, he found the city in a state of waste. He told the people what God had put in his heart to do, and called the people to rebuild. Nehemiah 2:17-8. But these were troublous times. When the Arabians, the Ammonites, the Ashdodites, and Tobiah, and Sanballat heard of the rebuilding, they came to fight against Jerusalem, so Nehemiah "...set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows." Nehemiah 4:7,8,13. "So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days." Nehemiah 6:15. "Now the city was large and great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded." Nehemiah 7:4.

Cyrus II (the Great) reigned from 549-530 B.C.; Cambyses II from 530-522 B.C.; Darius from 522-486 B.C.; and Xerxes from 486-465 B.C. The commandment to rebuild the walls and the city was to Nehemiah in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. Artaxerxes I ruled from 465 B.C. to 424 B.C.[1] His twentieth year was 445 B.C. This is about when Old Testament prophecy stopped. This is the beginning of the seventy weeks, which commence with seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49 days/years) to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (when the walls are rebuilt) unto the Messiah, which brings us to 396 B.C. After the second period of threescore and two weeks the Messiah is cut off. Sixty two weeks equals 434 days or prophetic years, which brings us to 38 Anno Domini (according to Roman dating). After His ascension our Lord continued to periodically speak to His apostles, and personally called Paul as a disciple. He then was cut off for awhile, and the Holy Spirit did His work. So the third and last period of the seventy weeks is not consecutive. "Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that is was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." Zechariah 11:9-14.

The third period is a period of only one week (7 years) when he shall confirm the covenant with many. This is a prophecy of the seven year Jewish war beginning under the reign of Nero. One might say He began to confirm the covenant in Rome in the autumn of 63 A.D. or 64 A.D., when many Christians were called to confirm their covenants with our Lord, and were sacrificed under Nero who chose to blame the Christians for the great fire in Rome. A tradition places the sacrifice of Peter in 67 A.D., rather than 64 A.D. However, this prophecy was directed specifically to the Jews, some of whom had accepted Jesus Christ (Acts 11,12). In the Holy Land the Jewish war did not start until approximately August 15, 66 A.D., when Antonia was attacked, although some argue that it began with the unrest in Jerusalem and its surroundings in approximately May, 66. For the dates concerning the Jewish war I rely on the history of Josephus, the Jewish historian to the Romans. His history uses Macedonian (Greek) names for the months of the year which seem to correspond best with an accurate date if imposed upon the Roman months of the year. If, alternatively the Macedonian name is imposed on the Tyrian system or on the luni-solar calender, the date may vary up to one half month from the date I use herein (Roman). In the spring of the 13^th year of Nero, 67 A.D., Vespasian, who is the seventh crown of the great red dragon, was sent to subdue the Hebrews. He began by taking cities and fortresses in Galilee: Jotapata, Japha, Garizim, Tarichaeae, and Gamala. After the death of Nero, Vespasian left his invasion of Judaea in 69 A.D., and returned to defeat Vitellius and become emperor. He then sent his son, Titus.

In the midst of the week, that is in the fourth or middle year, He causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The fourth year of the war would be August 15, 69 A.D., to August 14, 70 A.D. According to Josephus, Titus took the outer wall of Jerusalem on May 7, 70. The Temple sacrifice ceased on 17 Panemus, which would correspond with July 17, 70 A.D. Titus burned the Temple on August 10 (10 Lous), 70 A.D. Then the prophesied desolation began. On September 8 (8 Gorpaeus), 70 A.D., Titus took the upper city of Jerusalem. According to Tacitus 600,000 Jews perished. According to Josephus the Romans killed 1,197,000 Jews in the siege and the aftermath of revolts. About 97,000 captives were sold as slaves, or died as unwilling gladiators in the Roman games. The city walls were destroyed. The Jewish War continued until the fall of Masada in 73 A.D. [2] So the Hebrews had till 73 A.D., to accept their Messiah. Major revelations stopped, and the canonical books of the New Testament were set. Continuing revelation was through the Holy Spirit which revealed the truthfulness of the gospel to those who earnestly sought. He knowing the Hebrews would not accept their Messiah, has fulfilled His promise to give His light unto the Gentiles in the latter days. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Luke 13:34-5.

On 3/29/2017 at 8:30 AM, snowflake said:

Thank you all for your responses, much appreciated! A new question regarding the end times. Jesus in Matthew 24 said:
 

[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 9: 2

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Many biblical scholars say that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt for someone to see the abomination of desolation.  The Jews in Jerusalem are ready now to rebuild the temple. https://www.templeinstitute.org/ From what I understand the 70th week of Daniel will be right before Christ's return, (called the day of the Lord). And that an idol or image or unclean sacrifice or something totally offensive to God and the Jewish people (called the abomination of desolation) has to be put in the holy place of the temple.  

What's the LDS take on the 70th week of Daniel, and do they believe in the rapture of the church? Taught in 1 Thesselonians 4

 [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

See part 1. The 70th week was the 7 years war, and was finished some 2000 years ago. So the Lord gave Israel 40 years to accept their Savior. Essentially, the Evangelical/Darby eschatological camp has switched Daniel's prophecies backwards.

You have a good question, and the answer is a bit involved. Matthew 24 cannot be understood standing alone. It must be understood in conjunction with Luke, and this is because one is referencing the Desolator of Dan 9. The other is referencing the abomination of desolation of Daniel 11. This is actually addressed in the Joseph Smith translation of Matthew 24, which you can read here: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-m/1?lang=eng   This is essentially a combination of Luke and Matt 24.

[RevTestament]

On 3/28/2017 at 8:05 AM, snowflake said:

Hello all,

I have recently been doing a bible study on the end times and prophecy, specifically Daniel, Revelation and Matthew chapter 24. What is the LDS take on Israel and the end times: Specifically, has the LDS church replaced Israel in the book of Revelation (sometimes called replacement theology)? Or is the LDS take that Israel and the church have become the same?  Just trying to understand how the LDS church fits into the book of Revelation. Thanks.

I don't know if your class has discussed the historicist view or not, but as you can see my analysis largely follows many basics of the historicist view. I diverge from most modern applications of the historicist analysis. Sometimes these try to make Islam the beast. This just doesn't work. However, I believe the historicists were the first to rightly understand the days of Daniel and Revelation were prophetic years. Joseph Smith also saw this and applied years to the days of Revelation 12 in his JST. This should not be understood as a change to Revelation but as a prophetic interpretation of it. You will find many early Protestants applying the Historicist analysis to these two books including men such as Sir Isaac Newton, who had a decent understanding of Daniel for his day. Briefly the prophetic day to year analysis is one of the keys that must be understood to begin to unlock these prophecies. There are two places in the OT where we find the Lord clearly applying years to prophetic days. The first is found in the exodus when the Lord gave Israel 40 years in the wilderness - 1 year for each day.

When applied to Revelation 12 we see some clues. Rev 12 speaks of 1260 days. But it essentially repeats itself in a type of chiasma and gives a time, times, and a half. This is a Hebrew understanding. Their word for time is also used as a year. So the time is a year, and times is 2 years, and a half year. Applied to their long count calendar rather than their lunar calendar given to them in Exodus a year had 360 days made up of 30 day months, so 3.5 years becomes 1260 days. You will find this same convention in Daniel 7:25 regarding the little horn of the beast, except the half is translated in the KJV as the dividing of time. It is found again in yet a third form in Rev 13 regarding the beast again as 42 months. 42 mo x 30 = 1260 days or years. So this little horn ruler of Daniel 7 is given power over the saints for 1260 yrs. Protestants rightly pointed the finger at the bishop of Rome, but Catholics usually point the finger at the seven hill city of Constantinople and the Muslims. One main problem with this analysis is Islam never gained power over the bishop of Rome, who was never given into their hands. So there are the two competing interpretations with the Catholics saying the Muslims were given power for 1260 years from about 650 to 1910 when the Ottoman Empire fell in WW I. Or the Catholics were given power from about 540 till 1798 when Napoleon's general Berthier captured the bishop of Rome, ending Catholic rule for a time. In this scenario Rome is the seven hilled city with the eighth head of the beast being mons Vaticanus or Vatican hill across the river. Either way Revelation says it is soon to pass, so much of it is already finished. The 1260 years is finished. Those are the only two even remotely possible applications of the Revelation to history I know of.

[probablyHagoth7]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

...I believe the historicists were the first to rightly understand the days of Daniel and Revelation were prophetic years. Joseph Smith also saw this and applied years to the days of Revelation 12 in his JST. This should not be understood as a change to Revelation but as a prophetic interpretation of it. You will find many early Protestants applying the Historicist analysis to these two books including men such as Sir Isaac Newton...1 year for each day.

...The 1260 years is finished. Those are the only two even remotely possible applications of the Revelation to history I know of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A third application:

A latter-day apostle, who also happened to be a descendant of Hyrum Smith, taught that the 1260 years were meant to be understood as lunar years of 354 days.

The Muslim calendar fits that description. And year 1260 of the Muslim calendar ends in 1844, the year Hyrum and Joseph were killed.

I believe the timeline is a repeated reference to that capstone event of the Restoration. Two witnesses...slain. 

• By this shall men know...if ye have love one for another.
• No greater love...than to lay down one's life for one's friends...
• ...and their [Joseph and Hyrum's] innocent blood on the floor of Carthage jail...is a witness to the truth of the everlasting gospel that all the world cannot impeach; and their innocent blood on the banner of liberty, and on the magna charta of the United States, is an ambassador for the religion of Jesus Christ, that will touch the hearts of honest men among all nations; and their innocent blood, with the innocent blood of all the martyrs under the altar that John saw, will cry unto the Lord of Hosts till he avenges that blood on the earth. Amen.

So the martyrdom of Stephen by stoning, and the martyrdom of the Smiths in a hail of bullets, are bookends to two key prophetic timelines in Daniel (and Revelation).

 Thoughts? Impressions?

Edited April 2, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

A third application:

A latter-day apostle, who also happened to be a descendant of Hyrum Smith, taught that the 1260 years were meant to be understood as lunar years of 354 days.

The Muslim calendar fits that description. And year 1260 of the Muslim calendar ends in 1844, the year Hyrum and Joseph were killed.

I believe the timeline is a repeated reference to that capstone event of the Restoration. Two witnesses...slain. 

****

So the martyrdom of Stephen by stoning, and the martyrdom of the Smiths in a hail of bullets, are bookends to two key prophetic timelines in Daniel (and Revelation).

 Thoughts? Impressions?

I don't really know what to have impressions on here. You will have to explain that much better. How does 1260 years turn into lunar years of 354 days, and what does that refer to? What does that even mean? Who is this apostle?

I believe Parley Pratt was an apostle, but you know what? I do not accept his pablum that God married Mary, and produced Jesus. And hopefully nor does most, if any, of the church. It's stuff like this that makes the Church a laughing stock.

For me to accept something just because an apostle said it, won't fly with me. If it appears to contradict scripture, I will pray about it for no scripture is subject to exclusive private interpretation. If it is true, the spirit will confirm it or not. 

[probablyHagoth7]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

How does 1260 years turn into lunar years of 354 days, and what does that refer to? What does that even mean? Who is this apostle?

1

For starters, Joseph clarified only so far as to demonstrate that the 1260 days was meant to be understood as 1260 years.

But he didn't specify what calendar was to be used to reckon any such year.

Hyrum's direct descendant Hyrum M. Smith published through Deseret around the time of WW1 that the year was to be reckoned not as a solar year, but as a lunar year, specifically of 354 days.

The Muslim calendar is one of few lunar calendars that doesn't intercalate an extra month every few years. 

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

...For me to accept something just because an apostle said it, won't fly with me. If it appears to contradict scripture, I will pray about it for no scripture is subject to exclusive private interpretation. If it is true, the spirit will confirm it or not. 

1

 

 

 

 

 

Understood.

For those in the initial process of studying things out in your mind:

• John wrote specifically to the seven churches of Asia Minor.
• Heaven knew that the subjects of Asia Minor (inside modernTurkey) would be familiar with the region's mandated Muslim calendar for centuries up to (and beyond) 1844.
• Therefore, that 354-day lunar calendar was a very fitting calendar/language for John to use for embedding the prophetic timeline.
• Year 1260 of that calendar ended in 1844. The same year Hyrum and Joseph were slain at Carthage Jail.

1844

Edited April 3, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

For starters, Joseph clarified only so far as to demonstrate that the 1260 days was meant to be understood as 1260 years.

But he didn't specify what calendar was to be used to reckon any such year.

Hyrum's direct descendant Hyrum M. Smith published through Deseret around the time of WW1 that the year was to be reckoned not as a solar year, but as a lunar year, specifically of 354 days.

The Muslim calendar is one of few lunar calendars that doesn't intercalate an extra month every few years. 

Understood.

For those in the initial process of studying things out in your mind:

• John wrote specifically to the seven churches of Asia Minor.
• Heaven knew that the subjects of Asia Minor (inside modernTurkey) would be familiar with the region's mandated Muslim calendar for centuries up to (and beyond) 1844.
• Therefore, that 354-day lunar calendar was a very fitting calendar/language for John to embed the prophetic timeline for all who have an ear to hear.
• Year 1260 of that calendar ended in 1844. The same year Hyrum and Joseph were slain at Carthage Jail.

1844

Ok, I understand what you mean now. Using that I arrive at a period of 1222 solar years, which takes us to 622 AD. But the Muslims say Muhammed died in 632 AD. Their calendar only starts in 622 because that is when Muhammed moved to Medina. The Quran actually started in about 610 AD. 

In addition there is no biblical precedent for this conclusion. It would totally screw up Daniel 9 making the Messiah cut off in 23 AD. Therefore, it doesn't even meet the smell test. I don't have the slightest inclination it is true. I think he was just crunching numbers, and found something that fit a date he liked. To suggest that the Lord would use the Muslim calendar for His prophecies also strikes me as being ludicrous. But thanks for the info.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Ok, I understand what you mean now....there is no biblical precedent for this conclusion....to suggest that the Lord would use the Muslim calendar for His prophecies also strikes me as being ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

Ludicrous? Why?

Any more ludicrous to suggest he used a Julian (pagan Roman) or Gregorian (papal) calendar? So only calendars your culture doesn't happen to use are ludicrous? If so, by what standard/principle?

Would it be equally ludicrous to suggest that the Lord utilized Hebrew to convey some prophetic passages, and Aramaic for others, and Greek for yet others? (Which he did.)

If such variety in prophetic language is *not* ludicrous, and with clear scriptural precedent for such linguistic variety, why presume that God must use one (and only one) standard for reckoning/communicating prophetic timelines, when different peoples and cultures were being engaged? Note that Revelation 11 opens with a reed/rod being handed to John for measurement. Why would John need *anything* handed to him to measure with if it was clear what measure he should use?

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

It would totally screw up Daniel 9 making the Messiah cut off in 23 AD. 

1

 

 

 

Why?

I have not suggested that the key for understanding 1260 years should also applied to Daniel's 70 weeks. (You have.) 

(Strawman.)

Do you have scriptural precedent for forcing one (and only one) chronological standard upon *every* prophetic passage...when different timelines/promises were intended for different audiences/regions/cultures?

More to the point, Daniel/Gabriel would have been quite unkind to utilize a Muslim calendar for a message intended for ancient Jews [Daniel 9]...because that [Muslim] calendar would have been unknown to them. Instead, scripture is clear that prophecy is meant to be uttered/translated in a language that conveys meaning to its hearer(s), or at least intended to invite/encourage such to seek God for understanding such. So your one-size-fits-all insistence on arbitrary conformity doesn't align with my view of how Heaven conveys meaning to earth.

Revelation was intended (to a large degree) for a people (Christians of Asia Minor/Turkey) who would live through centuries being governed by a culture that reckoned time by the Muslim calendar. So it is not at all ludicrous to suggest that calendar unlocks the passage's meaning, even if western-centric cultures might at first glance prefer to believe/insist otherwise.

Fair enough?

Edited April 3, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[The Nehor]

The year 2000 suggested God is not as enamored with big round numbers as we are.

We are promised in the Book of Mormon that our dispensation would understand John's Revelation but I have not seen much evidence we have reached that point yet. I have seen even less that we would be able to calculate it. I know I tried and my prediction is now five years overdue.  

[probablyHagoth7]

Also, in another thread, it was suggested that Muslim countries have had limited exposure to the gospel message. 

Would heaven not have foreknown that...and have planned/provided a message to help convey such things to people in such regions?

Why presume that no message of clarity/hope was intended for peoples other than the nation(s) you happen to inhabit?

Edited April 3, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The year 2000 suggested God is not as enamored with big round numbers as we are.

We are promised in the Book of Mormon that our dispensation would understand John's Revelation but I have not seen much evidence we have reached that point yet. I have seen even less that we would be able to calculate it. I know I tried and my prediction is now five years overdue.  

http://revelationtestament.net

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

...I tried and my prediction is now five years overdue.  

 

What is it that you predicted/reckoned would happen 5 years ago?

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The year 2000 suggested God is not as enamored with big round numbers as we are.

We are promised in the Book of Mormon that our dispensation would understand John's Revelation but I have not seen much evidence we have reached that point yet. I have seen even less that we would be able to calculate it. I know I tried and my prediction is now five years overdue.  

I make no claims of understanding it as forecasting events. Indeed I tend to think it's impossible given the vagueness and ambiguous form of the text. It is interesting that McConkie's view was that half hour of silence represented 21 years of peace after the opening of the seventh seal. So if he was right (and I doubt he was - but it's possible) then 2021 or 2022 is when things start getting rough. Again interesting the science of cliodynamics has been predicting a major event roughly around 2020 or so. He tends to see the societal tensions leading to Trump as part of that. It's based on the idea that what tends to cause stress in society is overproduction of elites with not enough resources for them. This causes inter-elite conflict with examples being "minor" ones like the tensions of 1968 or "major" ones like the Civil War. He's worth reading although he's careful to note that he doesn't predict turmoil since policy decisions can prevent the worst.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

http://revelationtestament.net

I have read better crazy rankings. I like the one purporting to be a translation of the book of Joseph from the papyri.

1 hour ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

What is it that you predicted/reckoned would happen 5 years ago?

Second Coming. Had it calculated down to the minute. After I sold all my possessions and drank the Kool-Aid I realized I was wrong. Luckily it turns out plain Kool-Aid is not lethal like you might think.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I make no claims of understanding it as forecasting events. Indeed I tend to think it's impossible given the vagueness and ambiguous form of the text. It is interesting that McConkie's view was that half hour of silence represented 21 years of peace after the opening of the seventh seal. So if he was right (and I doubt he was - but it's possible) then 2021 or 2022 is when things start getting rough. Again interesting the science of cliodynamics has been predicting a major event roughly around 2020 or so. He tends to see the societal tensions leading to Trump as part of that. It's based on the idea that what tends to cause stress in society is overproduction of elites with not enough resources for them. This causes inter-elite conflict with examples being "minor" ones like the tensions of 1968 or "major" ones like the Civil War. He's worth reading although he's careful to note that he doesn't predict turmoil since policy decisions can prevent the worst.

I had the half hour of silence being about a dozen years and some change.

A major event? Doesn't sound very scientific.......