Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 21 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: What I was trying to imply (or say) is this... Not everyone (in or out of the Church) just won't fit into the same mold. Having said that, often our leaders (Bishops, Elders Quorum Presidents, High Priest Group Leaders) still push home teachers to convince us to push our families that it is the only thing they should want...even our own families. I think the best kind of life is the kind of life everybody should want. Why settle for less than the best? But it is a good point that everyone needs to make that choice for themselves and not be pushed into it.
Guest Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 18 minutes ago, Ahab said: I think the best kind of life is the kind of life everybody should want. Why settle for less than the best? But it is a good point that everyone needs to make that choice for themselves and not be pushed into it. True, no one should be pushed. But a blanket statement that everyone's best life is the one they want is dangerous. Some (many who are young) seek a life without any boundaries, which often leads to crimes, drugs, unprotected sex...and I not just talking about teenagers. Such lives lead often to jail, addition, abortion, welfare and ruin. Also can lead to the disillusion of family, where children become the victims. My bio-father lived the life he wanted, which ended in divorce from my mother and her and their child, my sister, brother and myself being homeless for a time. All of this while he entered into bigimay wit her his lover, with whom he had a child before my mother even knew.
The Nehor Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Ahab said: I think the best kind of life is the kind of life everybody should want. I am still trying to figure out if that sentence actually means anything........
california boy Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: God can give you complete fulfillment. I do not know how but he can. Well I have a very fulfilling and complete life now, so I think you are absolutely right. It is something that I am completely unconcerned about. I thrust God.
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am still trying to figure out if that sentence actually means anything........ Ah, yes, well, it does. Exaltation being the best kind of life that is possible.
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 16 hours ago, Ahab said: Please just share your ideas rather than asking me to offer more input. But I'll share a few other things I can think of: As a builder, I'm looking forward to building homes in heaven and teaching my and my wife's children how to build them, too. From the ground up. Even sometimes creating the planets to build them on. And decorating them and adorning them in many ways, as well. With nice gardens and water features and nice house furniture, etc. Not everyone involved would need to be exalted to be able to help me with that, though. It's just another thing that for me that would make that kind of life the best life possible, especially the part about teaching my children how to do that and having them help me. Plus there is the part about how neither me nor my wife will have any health problems anymore, with incorruptible bodies, but again that wouldn't require exaltation or living the same lifestyle as our Father. Please share any other thoughts you may have. That is never what struck me as the essentials when trying to pinpoint the "best kind of life." My LDS framing of the best life is eternal life, which begins now, and which is defined as nearness to God. It's not defined by such specific parameters like what you described. Indeed, for now, even the most ideal "familial parameters," for example, can be delayed, postponed, or indefinitely replaced. Christ taught of his kingdom in terms of the individual's sense of being, relative to God and others. And so it was always my understanding that the most efficient way to eternal life and the most accurate way to teach it would be to cultivate that nearness to God, best encapsulated in seeking the truth, and seeking to love. Repentence is all about constantly returning ourselves back in God's direction.
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Meadowchik said: That is never what struck me as the essentials when trying to pinpoint the "best kind of life." My LDS framing of the best life is eternal life, which begins now, and which is defined as nearness to God. It's not defined by such specific parameters like what you described. Indeed, for now, even the most ideal "familial parameters," for example, can be delayed, postponed, or indefinitely replaced. Christ taught of his kingdom in terms of the individual's sense of being, relative to God and others. And so it was always my understanding that the most efficient way to eternal life and the most accurate way to teach it would be to cultivate that nearness to God, best encapsulated in seeking the truth, and seeking to love. Repentence is all about constantly returning ourselves back in God's direction. There you go. Thank you. Much better when other people say what I could say but without me having to say everything all by myself. Any other ideas about what makes the kind of life our Father (and Mother) lives the best way of life possible for any of us to live? I also think about the feelings of peace and contentment that must accompany that way of life, feeling as though nothing good is missing or being neglected. With a desire that everyone get to experience those feelings each and every day of their lives. And when others don't, and it's not because we haven't tried to help them, knowing the reason is because they have chosen an inferior life when they had the choice to choose the best kind of life that is possible. Edited March 29, 2017 by Ahab
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Ahab said: There you go. Thank you. Much better when other people say what I could say but without me having to say everything all by myself. Any other ideas about what makes the kind of life our Father (and Mother) lives the best way of life possible for any of us to live? I also think about the feelings of peace and contentment that must accompany that way of life, feeling as though nothing good is missing or being neglected. With a desire that everyone get to experience those feelings each and every day of their lives. And when others don't, and it's not because we haven't tried to help them, knowing the reason is because they have chosen an inferior life when they had the choice to choose the best kind of life that is possible. And yet when we define it this way, there's almost no way to tell if a person ISN'T living this way. Sure we can talk about righteousness, love, and improving, but to actually try to claim a person is living the "wrong" life takes some pretty intimate knowledge or otherwise, arrogance. It's like trying to identify speed and position simultaneously. 1
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: And yet when we define it this way, there's almost no way to tell if a person ISN'T living this way. Sure we can talk about righteousness, love, and improving, but to actually try to claim a person is living the "wrong" life takes some pretty intimate knowledge or otherwise, arrogance. It's like trying to identify speed and position simultaneously. I'm not as interested in trying to judge or determine whether or not someone else is living the same kind of life our Father lives as I am in simply trying to describe it. Any other ideas?
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I'm not as interested in trying to judge or determine whether or not someone else is living the same kind of life our Father lives as I am in simply trying to describe it. Any other ideas? Your OP basically asked how we can convince others that being married and having babies now and in heaven is the best way, because obviously their way cannot be as good. It was inherently judgmental. Again, it's really arrogant to assume that such a thing is better for a person than them doing anything else. Maybe they're doing more of what God wants them to do than you're doing of what God wants you to do. You. Don't. Know. 2
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Your OP basically asked how we can convince others that being married and having babies now and in heaven is the best way, because obviously their way cannot be as good. It was inherently judgmental. Again, it's really arrogant to assume that such a thing is better for a person than them doing anything else. Maybe they're doing more of what God wants them to do than you're doing of what God wants you to do. You. Don't. Know. God our Father is the one who has said that eternal life, aka exaltation, is the greatest gift he can give to anyone. It is the way he lives his life, and he lives his life in the best way possible for us to live our lives. Misunderstand much?
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 59 minutes ago, Ahab said: God our Father is the one who has said that eternal life, aka exaltation, is the greatest gift he can give to anyone. It is the way he lives his life, and he lives his life in the best way possible for us to live our lives. Misunderstand much? And you equated that with being married and having babies and asked how we can convince others that that life is the best for them.
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: And you equated that with being married and having babies and asked how we can convince others that that life is the best for them. So what part do you not understand? How we qualify for eternal life (aka exaltation) or how we can convince others that eternal life is the best life they can have?
The Nehor Posted March 29, 2017 Posted March 29, 2017 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: So what part do you not understand? How we qualify for eternal life (aka exaltation) or how we can convince others that eternal life is the best life they can have? If being married and having babies is the key to happiness then the world should be filled with happy people down through the ages as the fact that the human species has survived is proof we are are doing that much right. Could it be that there is a bit more to how God lives then that? 3
Ahab Posted March 29, 2017 Author Posted March 29, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If being married and having babies is the key to happiness then the world should be filled with happy people down through the ages as the fact that the human species has survived is proof we are are doing that much right. Could it be that there is a bit more to how God lives then that? You're trying to be funny now. Right? Um, but in case you are serious, yeah.
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 9 hours ago, Ahab said: So what part do you not understand? How we qualify for eternal life (aka exaltation) or how we can convince others that eternal life is the best life they can have? I did not say I don't understand. Why do you pivot to that? What I am trying to tell you, Ahab, is that you are oversimplifying. The gospel and eternal life is not, is not even doctrinally, defined as being married and having babies.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I did not say I don't understand. Why do you pivot to that? What I am trying to tell you, Ahab, is that you are oversimplifying. The gospel and eternal life is not, is not even doctrinally, defined as being married and having babies. It includes that, though: "...they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.18-19?lang=eng "To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted." https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 30 minutes ago, Ahab said: It includes that, though: "...they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.18-19?lang=eng "To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation* or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted." https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng And verse 17 "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. D&C 132 " This is not exaltation, but I cannot see how it is not eternal life. It is in the Celestial kingdom, in God's presence, to live immortally for eternity. That's eternal life. And the New Testament “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life” (1 John 5:11-13) However, I do realize that the church teachings on eternal life seem to be a rather stark departure from the New Testament teachings. Something about Joseph and "the new and everlasting covenant" changed everything from what Christians previously understood.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: And verse 17 "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. D&C 132 " This is not exaltation, but I cannot see how it is not eternal life. It is in the Celestial kingdom, in God's presence, to live immortally for eternity. That's eternal life. Eternal life is differentiated from immortal life by one referring to the way our Father lives his life and the other referring to simply being immortal and not necessarily being the way our Father lives his life. So someone who lives in the celestial kingdom but who doesn't live the same kind of life our Father lives will not have what is referred to as eternal life. So to have eternal life we must be living our life the way our Father lives his life. ...with children and a spouse (of the opposite sex) and without sin, etc. That is as simple as I can state it.
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 34 minutes ago, Ahab said: Eternal life is differentiated from immortal life by one referring to the way our Father lives his life and the other referring to simply being immortal and not necessarily being the way our Father lives his life. So someone who lives in the celestial kingdom but who doesn't live the same kind of life our Father lives will not have what is referred to as eternal life. So to have eternal life we must be living our life the way our Father lives his life. ...with children and a spouse (of the opposite sex) and without sin, etc. That is as simple as I can state it. And as I said, that is a departure from the Biblical paradigm. I was imprinted with this definition since my LDS childhood : eternal life is immortality and living in God's presence. But I grant that by and large, I'm wrong about the LDS doctrinal definition. That said, I stand by my other statements that, when approaching other human beings, that we should be especially humble when operating under the premise that we are right and others are wrong. Odds are, you and I are always gonna be wrong about something.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Odds are, you and I are always gonna be wrong about something. No, not always. There will come a time when I will be right about everything and I'm getting closer to that time every day.
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: No, not always. There will come a time when I will be right about everything and I'm getting closer to that time every day. Apparently that's what you believe, contrary to objective fact. Others believe otherwise, just as sincerely, and many based on more rational evidence than you.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Author Posted March 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Apparently that's what you believe, contrary to objective fact. Others believe otherwise, just as sincerely, and many based on more rational evidence than you. In your opinion. And you can keep it.
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Odds are, you and I are always gonna be wrong about something. I don't believe that to be true. We may always lack some knowledge, but that is different than believing a falsehood.
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