Asked to teach a class about answering and dealing with hard questions

[rongo]

. . . for an upcoming stake EFY (two weeks).

The challenge is going to be time. They would like me to help equip youth and also take questions --- in fifteen minutes. Any one of the hard questions takes longer than 15 minutes to discuss --- especially if/when there are genuine concerns. 

I'm excited, though. It will be very interesting to see what the actual concerns are from stake youth. I know that my youth in my ward don't have "Gospel Topics Essays" concerns. 

[hope_for_things]

Cool, what a good opportunity.  I think you might be surprised as to what questions they ask, I can tell you that some youth do have Gospel Topics Essay concerns that I've encountered.  Anyway, I think that it would be wise to prepare for an LGBT question as well.

Please report back on how this goes, I'd be interested in hearing about it.  Thanks 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

. . . for an upcoming stake EFY (two weeks).

The challenge is going to be time. They would like me to help equip youth and also take questions --- in fifteen minutes. Any one of the hard questions takes longer than 15 minutes to discuss --- especially if/when there are genuine concerns. 

I'm excited, though. It will be very interesting to see what the actual concerns are from stake youth. I know that my youth in my ward don't have "Gospel Topics Essays" concerns. 

Answering any sort of difficult questions is hard in a large group setting.  Sounds almost impossible in just 15 minutes.  Are you focusing more on the answers to  specific difficult questions or how to answer difficult questions in general?

[bluebell]

That sounds awesome.  It also sounds like the people who have organized the event don't understand one of the main aspects of answering hard questions-it takes time! 

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Answering any sort of difficult questions is hard in a large group setting.  Sounds almost impossible in just 15 minutes.  Are you focusing more on the answers to  specific difficult questions or how to answer difficult questions in general?

Part of the reason for the time limit is that they are going to be broken up into small(er) groups. I can tell you that, having done firesides and Q&As, they can last for hours. 

I'm going to spend my time on how to handle difficult questions generally and what resources there are, but mostly approach. I think I'll begin with a baseball analogy. When I was young, I couldn't judge fly balls. I would run in on them, and they would be over my head and I would try to run back after them. I had to learn for my first step to be back, even when I thought I would need to run in on it. You can always run up on it (a much easier play), but going back on a ball is much harder. Later, as I got better at judging flies, I could play the ball as it was hit. I'll draw a comparison to Davis Bitton's approach in his "I don't have a testimony of the history of the Church" FAIR conference talk, where he, in response to questions about how he can believe knowing where all the skeletons lie and where all the warts are, said that he approaches difficult historical questions by asking what the best thing he could find would be (no basis for it; total fabrication) and what the worst thing he could find would be (it's all a fraud!). Having defined the extremes, the truth never approaches either extreme, but lies somewhere in between. i.e., outset expectations awareness. 

There are a lot of things. The Austin Farrer (C.S. Lewis) quote on evidence being necessary for faith to survive and flourish, B.H. Roberts on a whole bunch of things, etc. 

I think if there is a lot of excitement and demand, the stake leadership will plan a longer "hard question" thing for the youth. Many adults would be interested, too.  

[rongo]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Cool, what a good opportunity.  I think you might be surprised as to what questions they ask, I can tell you that some youth do have Gospel Topics Essay concerns that I've encountered.  Anyway, I think that it would be wise to prepare for an LGBT question as well.

Please report back on how this goes, I'd be interested in hearing about it.  Thanks 

Without a doubt! Most youth questions center around social issues rather than Gospel Topics Essays concerns (although there are exceptions). Those concerns come later, as they learn more and become interested in more . . .  

In a ward Q&A once, one of our three Norwegian foreign exchange students asked "Why do Mormons hate gays?" (the three girls were awesome, and one even participated in the cultural celebration for the Gilbert temple). I asked everyone who had a gay friend or family member to raise their hands (almost all hands went up). I told everyone to look around, and there was the answer to the question of whether or not Mormons hate gays. I said that some people claim we hate gays because of doctrine on the law of chastity, but the reality is that almost all of us are friends or family with someone who is gay, and we and they know that we love them. It is very much on youths' minds right now.

[hope_for_things]

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

Without a doubt! Most youth questions center around social issues rather than Gospel Topics Essays concerns (although there are exceptions). Those concerns come later, as they learn more and become interested in more . . .  

In a ward Q&A once, one of our three Norwegian foreign exchange students asked "Why do Mormons hate gays?" (the three girls were awesome, and one even participated in the cultural celebration for the Gilbert temple). I asked everyone who had a gay friend or family member to raise their hands (almost all hands went up). I told everyone to look around, and there was the answer to the question of whether or not Mormons hate gays. I said that some people claim we hate gays because of doctrine on the law of chastity, but the reality is that almost all of us are friends or family with someone who is gay, and we and they know that we love them. It is very much on youths' minds right now.

That is a good question.  I like part of your answer, showing that individual Mormons don't hate gays.  Too bad the policies of the church tell a different story.  

I applaud that you're having these conversations, thanks for sharing.  

[Duncan]

One thing I think would be good is how to help them get their own answers, as good and wonderful as this is you won't always be around to help them so they need to figure out stuff on their own 

[Buckeye]

I'm not sure if you're asking for recommendations, but I would stay away from SSM if you only have 15 minutes. Not enough time and the youth will get bogged down in that issue rather than learn principles for how to deal with challenging issues.

From my experience, I've had success in using the Church's 'Revelations in Context' essay on the Wow (https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng). I start by asking the youth which of these facts is true: "(i) typical pioneer packing lists recommended coffee, (ii) Brigham Young set up wineries in southern Utah, (iii) spittoons were installed in the Salt Lake Tabernacle for tobacco juice, (iv) just prior to singing 'A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief' at Carthage, Joseph and his companions drank wine." The answer, of course, is that all of them are true. For there we look at the beginning of Section 89 and discuss how it was not originally a commandment. Then I use the essay to discuss the history of how the people changed to the point it became a commandment. 

 

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I'm not sure if you're asking for recommendations, but I would stay away from SSM if you only have 15 minutes. Not enough time and the youth will get bogged down in that issue rather than learn principles for how to deal with challenging issues.

From my experience, I've had success in using the Church's 'Revelations in Context' essay on the Wow (https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng). I start by asking the youth which of these facts is true: "(i) typical pioneer packing lists recommended coffee, (ii) Brigham Young set up wineries in southern Utah, (iii) spittoons were installed in the Salt Lake Tabernacle for tobacco juice, (iv) just prior to singing 'A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief' at Carthage, Joseph and his companions drank wine." The answer, of course, is that all of them are true. For there we look at the beginning of Section 89 and discuss how it was not originally a commandment. Then I use the essay to discuss the history of how the people changed to the point it became a commandment. 

Sounds like a great discussion and object lesson.  Its also interesting to consider that the WoW became a requirement(commandment) without any kind of revelation, just a change in policy and cultural shift of church leaders.  I think its interesting to consider that many of our doctrines/commandments have a similar development, no special revelatory event is claimed, and the interpretations change over time, and even contradict earlier interpretations.  This may be a little heavy for some youth with a simplistic God speaks > prophet interprets > church follows paradigm, but learning history can complicate simple narratives.  

[rongo]

40 minutes ago, Duncan said:

One thing I think would be good is how to help them get their own answers, as good and wonderful as this is you won't always be around to help them so they need to figure out stuff on their own 

Absolutely. Not only how to get their own answers, but what to do if they can't seem to get satisfactory answers (i.e., if it appears that there aren't any good answers). 

[rongo]

28 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I'm not sure if you're asking for recommendations, but I would stay away from SSM if you only have 15 minutes. Not enough time and the youth will get bogged down in that issue rather than learn principles for how to deal with challenging issues.

From my experience, I've had success in using the Church's 'Revelations in Context' essay on the Wow (https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng). I start by asking the youth which of these facts is true: "(i) typical pioneer packing lists recommended coffee, (ii) Brigham Young set up wineries in southern Utah, (iii) spittoons were installed in the Salt Lake Tabernacle for tobacco juice, (iv) just prior to singing 'A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief' at Carthage, Joseph and his companions drank wine." The answer, of course, is that all of them are true. For there we look at the beginning of Section 89 and discuss how it was not originally a commandment. Then I use the essay to discuss the history of how the people changed to the point it became a commandment. 

SSM (or any hard questions) definitely doesn't fit in a 15 minute time frame, so time constraints are the biggest challenge. It isn't enough time to even look at one question.

They want me to take questions, so that will be the real tightrope walk. Especially because the last thing I want is for some to have the impression that it's like the "Swedish Rescue" brush-off. I may recommend that we do something longer sometime where youth questions can be handled in-depth. The principles of approaches, strategies, and skills with dealing with hard questions is the important thing in the 15 minute time frame, I think.

Maybe I will have them submit written questions that I/we can fully respond to. 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Without a doubt! Most youth questions center around social issues rather than Gospel Topics Essays concerns (although there are exceptions). Those concerns come later, as they learn more and become interested in more . . .  

In a ward Q&A once, one of our three Norwegian foreign exchange students asked "Why do Mormons hate gays?" (the three girls were awesome, and one even participated in the cultural celebration for the Gilbert temple). I asked everyone who had a gay friend or family member to raise their hands (almost all hands went up). I told everyone to look around, and there was the answer to the question of whether or not Mormons hate gays. I said that some people claim we hate gays because of doctrine on the law of chastity, but the reality is that almost all of us are friends or family with someone who is gay, and we and they know that we love them. It is very much on youths' minds right now.

It should be noted that you don't get to pick your family members (for the most part), so having a "gay family member" doesn't mean we automatically accept or love them.  Plenty of gay people have been less-than-loved by LDS family members.

And the greater likelihood of LDS teens having openly gay friends is probably the cause of this concern.  More and more, they can't reconcile the Church's teachings about homosexuality with what they see from their friends and acquaintances.

Honestly, I'm continually astounded at the rapid degree to which homosexuality has become normalized.  My 17yo daughter is watching "Cheers" on Netflix these days (which I wasn't allowed to watch growing up, but it's not a hill I'm going to die on), and she made an interesting comment about an episode where a lot of the jokes were about homosexuality and the possibility of a bar patron being gay.  She said that they would "never make jokes like that now" and I admitted it was a different time.  But it was interesting to me that she was able to see the jokes as a dated artifact of 1980s culture, and she didn't find them funny at all other than for their brazenness.  

The point being, to many modern LDS teens, the Church's teachings against homosexuality sound like dated jokes from a 1980s sitcom, not an "eternal truth" from an omnipotent deity.

It's great for the Church to move beyond the language and fear of homosexuality from past decades, but there will still be a conflict with the basic doctrines that teach the youth that homosexual behaviors are a sin, even between two people who love each other and are otherwise monogamous.  As their family and friends continue to provide examples of such behaviors leading to happiness and an otherwise normal and healthy life, there will be a conflict between what they see and what they are being taught.  

That's the problem, and it will be interesting to see how the Church continues to adapt to account for it.

Edited February 7, 2017 by cinepro

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It should be noted that you don't get to pick your family members (for the most part), so having a "gay family member" doesn't mean we automatically accept or love them.  Plenty of gay people have been less-than-loved by LDS family members.

Not automatically, no, but overwhelmingly, in my experience, Mormons with gay family members continue to love them and be open about their love for them, even while strongly agreeing with LDS doctrine and practice. That was my point: doctrinally declaring homosexuality to be a sin ≠ hatred of gays, but that is the false equivalency of our times. It was visually striking that almost every hand was up, and that's what I wanted to draw the questioner's attention to. 

Honestly, I'm continually astounded at the rapid degree to which homosexuality has become normalized

I am, too. The sea change happened literally almost overnight. It will be interesting to watch what happens and the Church's reaction to increasing societal changes along these lines.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

. . . for an upcoming stake EFY (two weeks).

The challenge is going to be time. They would like me to help equip youth and also take questions --- in fifteen minutes. Any one of the hard questions takes longer than 15 minutes to discuss --- especially if/when there are genuine concerns. 

I'm excited, though. It will be very interesting to see what the actual concerns are from stake youth. I know that my youth in my ward don't have "Gospel Topics Essays" concerns. 

You need 3 hours!!  Good luck to you!!

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The point being, to many modern LDS teens, the Church's teachings against homosexuality sound like dated jokes from a 1980s sitcom, not an "eternal truth" from an omnipotent deity.

 

Isn't this true though for the church's teachings on sex before marriage and having children out of wedlock?

[stemelbow]

It's a start, at least.  I'm not sure much can be addressed in 15 minutes.  But I'm eager to hear what you get to in that time, after it happens.  Hopefully you come back and report.  I wouldn't doubt at all if one of the main questions on the youths' minds has to do with homosexuality, though.  The few times the topic been broached by local leaders with my son it hasn't gone over well at all. 

[Buckeye]

38 minutes ago, rongo said:

SSM (or any hard questions) definitely doesn't fit in a 15 minute time frame, so time constraints are the biggest challenge. It isn't enough time to even look at one question.

They want me to take questions, so that will be the real tightrope walk. Especially because the last thing I want is for some to have the impression that it's like the "Swedish Rescue" brush-off. I may recommend that we do something longer sometime where youth questions can be handled in-depth. The principles of approaches, strategies, and skills with dealing with hard questions is the important thing in the 15 minute time frame, I think.

Maybe I will have them submit written questions that I/we can fully respond to. 

If you only have 15 minutes, I would take questions in advance. There's just not time to open up the floor. I guess another option would be to list three topics on a screen - say, WoW, First Vision Accounts, and Priesthood Ban. Then have the youth "vote" on which one they want to learn about. Then model how someone should inquire as to that issue - sources, open mind, keep questioning, etc - that would apply to all issues. 

If you open the floor to random questions, you risk doing the opposite of what you should. Rather than modeling how to conduct an inquiry, you'll just set yourself up as the "answer guy" to go to with questions. The youth don't need an "Answers to Doctrinal Questions" or "Nibley's Best Soundbites." They're already too hooked on Wikipedia and 'instant easy answers' as it is. What they need is to develop the hard skills of studying something out. Modeling that skill set will take at least all of your 15 minutes, IMO.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Isn't this true though for the church's teachings on sex before marriage and having children out of wedlock?

What '80s did you grow up in? 

[Johnnie Cake]

Please return and report. I'd love to know what the tough questions plaguing church youth are and how you answered them

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What '80s did you grow up in? 

Sorry if i wasn't clear.

I mean that the teachings of the church on chastity are not at all in line with the current cultural teachings on the subject, per the majority of high school teenagers who aren't members of the church.

I graduated from high school in the mid-90s and we had two girls in my senior class that got pregnant and it was a big deal.  I have a kid in high school now and it's not a big deal to have pregnant classmates.  It's pretty normal.

I know that back in the late 70s and early 80s, it was even more scandalous.  Go back further than that and premarital sex and out of wedlock babies could ruin a family name.

Modern society and current LDS teachings different in some pretty impressive ways on more than just homosexuality.  Given that, i'm not sure how the mere presence of the difference can be said to mean much in and of itself.

[cinepro]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Isn't this true though for the church's teachings on sex before marriage and having children out of wedlock?

No.  "Sex between men and women is great, but wait for marriage" is quite different than "Sex between men and men or women and women is a grievous sin and never okay, even in marriage."

But I think LDS culture (and conservative culture in general, and culture in general) have become quite a bit more accepting of sex outside of marriage and children out of wedlock.  I have a friend who grew up hard-core Seventh-day Adventist (and is still a vegetarian), but kind of drifted away from religion after moving away from her family and coming to Los Angeles (see: the Prodigal Son video).

Early last year, she shared that she was pregnant with the help of her boyfriend and they were going to raise the child but not get married.  I asked her how her parents (who are still strict Adventists) reacted, and she said they were thrilled (she's their only child, and her biological clock might not be ticking too much longer).  While that may not apply to LDS feelings on the subject, I thought it was interesting.

[Buckeye]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

No.  "Sex between men and women is great, but wait for marriage" is quite different than "Sex between men and men or women and women is a grievous sin and never okay, even in marriage."

But I think LDS culture (and conservative culture in general, and culture in general) have become quite a bit more accepting of sex outside of marriage and children out of wedlock.  I have a friend who grew up hard-core Seventh-day Adventist (and is still a vegetarian), but kind of drifted away from religion after moving away from her family and coming to Los Angeles (see: the Prodigal Son video).

Early last year, she shared that she was pregnant with the help of her boyfriend and they were going to raise the child but not get married.  I asked her how her parents (who are still strict Adventists) reacted, and she said they were thrilled (she's their only child, and her biological clock might not be ticking too much longer).  While that may not apply to LDS feelings on the subject, I thought it was interesting.

That reminds me of another point rongo could raise in a WoW discussion. Ask the youth which faith group lives the longest. Someone will say "Mormons." Then correct them and explain how Adventists actually live longer, in large part because they obey the "eat meat sparingly" instruction much better than Mormons. FWIW, I don't recommend teaching this to adults as you'll have to run for your life.

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sorry if i wasn't clear.

I mean that the teachings of the church on chastity are not at all in line with the current cultural teachings on the subject, per the majority of high school teenagers who aren't members of the church.

I graduated from high school in the mid-90s and we had two girls in my senior class that got pregnant and it was a big deal.  I have a kid in high school now and it's not a big deal to have pregnant classmates.  It's pretty normal.

I know that back in the late 70s and early 80s, it was even more scandalous.  Go back further than that and premarital sex and out of wedlock babies could ruin a family name.

Modern society and current LDS teachings different in some pretty impressive ways on more than just homosexuality.  Given that, i'm not sure how the mere presence of the difference can be said to mean much in and of itself.

Sounds good.  I think what you say above was word for word said by my youth leaders back in the late 80s/early 90s era, interestingly enough.  of course you'd have to set the dates back a decade or two for it to work.  I dont' know how many girls from high school got pregnant, but I also don't recall anyone making a big deal about those who did.  My son on the other hand has mentioned to me each time a teenage girl gets pregnant, it seems. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by stemelbow

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, cinepro said:

No.  "Sex between men and women is great, but wait for marriage" is quite different than "Sex between men and men or women and women is a grievous sin and never okay, even in marriage."

But I think LDS culture (and conservative culture in general, and culture in general) have become quite a bit more accepting of sex outside of marriage and children out of wedlock.  I have a friend who grew up hard-core Seventh-day Adventist (and is still a vegetarian), but kind of drifted away from religion after moving away from her family and coming to Los Angeles (see: the Prodigal Son video).

Early last year, she shared that she was pregnant with the help of her boyfriend and they were going to raise the child but not get married.  I asked her how her parents (who are still strict Adventists) reacted, and she said they were thrilled (she's their only child, and her biological clock might not be ticking too much longer).  While that may not apply to LDS feelings on the subject, I thought it was interesting.

I'm not talking about the teachings, but society's reaction to the teachings.

As far as our current society is concerned, the idea that two consenting adults can do something that is a sin and immoral is a completely outdated belief system.  

A few decades ago, society and the church's teachings on sex before marriage were pretty equal.  Now, they are contradictory.  That in itself does not mean that the church needs to change though.  The fact that the church's teachings might be a bad joke to today's teenagers really means absolutely nothing in regards to whether or not they are true or false teachings.