california boy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The comparison is not apt, californiaboy. The Mormon Church was not in the forefront of Prop 8, Are you so much in denial that you really now believe that the Mormon Church did not lead the fight to pass Prop 8? Seriously? You do know that the church provided over 70% of the manpower and 50% of the funding to pass Prop 8. Oddly enough there has been a movie made about Prop 8. It is called "8: the Mormon Proposition." I wonder why they came up with that title? If you seriously don't think that the Mormon church lead the campaign to pass Prop 8, I would strongly suggest that you watch that movie. It is about YOUR church. Here is a summary of the film Quote 8: The Mormon Proposition is an American documentary that examines The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and its support of California Proposition 8, stating that the church has been actively involved in the denial of LGBT human rights. The film was written by Reed Cowan, directed by Cowan and Steven Greenstreet, and narrated by Dustin Lance Black. It was released on June 18, 2010 by Red Flag Releasing (RFR). Edited December 30, 2016 by california boy 1
california boy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: In the end, your penchant for hate will hurt you very deeply. It has already so obviously warped your thinking that you continue to spend time in anti-Mormon agitation and propaganda. Robert, I wanted to address this comment you made separately because it has nothing to do with what we have been talking about. I found your comment almost comical given the discussion I had only last night with some straight friends of ours. We hadn't seen this couple for a while and after dinner they were asking how things were going. My partner and I had just come from a very nice day with my children, their spouses, my ex wife and her mother. The husband is an extremely devout Catholic and for some reason the conversation turned to religion and specifically the Mormon church since they know my background. My partner spent the next 15 minutes telling them how amazing my family is, how happy they are and how assured my grandchildren are. He related how the oldest grandchild (5 years) not only volunteered to offer the prayer on lunch even with a room full of adults, but did so eloquently and with confidence. I explained how even at a very early age, Mormon children have the opportunity to speak in Jr. Sunday School. I talked to them about my mission and the wonderful experience that was. We talked about the church correlation program and how the exact same Sunday School lesson is taught in every congregation of the church on the same week. I related how I attended church with my kids in Italy and that in teaching the lesson, the instructor referred to the previous weeks lesson. My kids knew exactly what the instructor was talking about because they had received the same lesson the week before. My friends actually knew very little about the church and how unique it is. What they did know is that the church used to discriminate against Blacks. And the church is very anti-gay. They got that impression almost exclusively from the church's actions in the Prop 8 campaign. They didn't know anything about the church's refusal to baptize children of gay parents. They asked me if I was still a practicing member, probably because I declined their offer for a glass of wine. I told them that while the church works really well for a lot of people, it doesn't work for me. They asked me if my children are active in the church. I told them all but two. And that all my siblings and father are still very active in the church. And yes, we did talk about the anti gay actions of the Catholic church as well, something that even though he is devoted, strongly disagrees with. Now does this sound like a guy filled with hate for the church? Don't be confused with my diligence in keeping members honest on the history of the church and how it treats the gay community with some kind of warped feelings about the church. 1
california boy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 4 hours ago, why me said: Muslim women are more or less forced to wear the hijab when they go outside or when they are home with a man who is not a husband or a close relative. Mosques also practice segregation between men and women. Women can be discouraged to shake the hand of a man. She must be covered by clothes across her body that hides her figure. In great britain one would be surprised by the amount of women who wear the nijab, a veil over the face. Interestingly, the koran says nothing about such clothing. It mentions that they must hide their beauty but not necessarily with a hijab or nijab. This is more or less a recent trend that began in the 90s as this link shows from the financial times: .https://www.ft.com/content/efc25b9c-81ba-11e0-8a54-00144feabdc0 Interesting article and discussion on the bottom link: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-07-10-muslim-women-mosques_n.htm Listen to the video. I can only imagine how a muslim homosexual would be treated in the mosgue if he came out of the closet. Do muslim women have civil rights. Here is a great book by a muslim feminist about the hijab and other issues related to muslim women: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18490563-headscarves-and-hymens Unfortunately if I were to speak about these issues to a group of US progressives, I would be called an Islamophobe. What does this have to do with how Mormons treat gays? What a strange post. Do you not think that the Muslins have a right to practice their religion the way they want to? Doesn't the Mormon church also have clothing requirements on how to dress Doesn't the Mormon church also segregate women from men as well as part of their religious service? Doesn't the Mormon church forbid women from holding the priesthood? Seriously of all the things to attack another religion for, how they practice their beliefs and what they believe in seems like a very strange thing to do, especially for a Mormon. The church is hardly mainstream Christian in what it requires it's members to do.
mfbukowski Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, california boy said: Now does this sound like a guy filled with hate for the church? Don't be confused with my diligence in keeping members honest on the history of the church and how it treats the gay community with some kind of warped feelings about the church. LOL. No warped feelings about the church, hey? 6 hours ago, california boy said: .... Do you not think that the Muslins have a right to practice their religion the way they want to? Doesn't the Mormon church also have clothing requirements on how to dress Doesn't the Mormon church also segregate women from men as well as part of their religious service? Doesn't the Mormon church forbid women from holding the priesthood? Seriously of all the things to attack another religion for, how they practice their beliefs and what they believe in seems like a very strange thing to do, especially for a Mormon. The church is hardly mainstream Christian in what it requires it's members to do. For Mormons the same modest clothing requirements apply to men and women. Garments, which cover the same body areas for men and women, should not be exposed Warped feeling one. Mormons do not "segregate" women as part of their "religious service". In the temple they sit on different sides of the room- usually and not always, and they take different covenants. Warped feeling two Like Catholics, the first Christians, only men hold the priesthood- which is obviously a very mainstream Christian idea then. Warped feeling three The church does not pretend to be mainstream Christian in other areas so why should that be a criterion for anything? We are a RESTORED church which believes "mainstream Christian" churches are apostate. We have no desire to be "mainstream Christian". Warped feeling four. Is that hate for the church? It is not exactly warm fuzzies, and shows no understanding about the church, which makes me doubt that you ever were an active Mormon at all. You seem to understand very little about it. You even use the terminology oddly. Segregate women as part of their "religious service"? Not even specifying what "religious service" or how they are segregated, and then asking the question as if you don't know the answer? No, that's no Mormon background! And you want your children to be baptized Mormon, right? Not having them baptized has torn your family apart, right- as I recall from last week? Edited December 30, 2016 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 When Barak Obama came into office, he was against Gay marriage. That is how much the world has changed in 8 years, and how distorted this entire tirade against the church is. Barak Obama essentially agreed with a position very similar to that of the church.
mfbukowski Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 Not until 2012 did Obama endorse same sex marriage- and it was big news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQGMTPab9GQ
Stargazer Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 On 12/21/2016 at 5:33 PM, thesometimesaint said: Prior to the Victorian Era marriage to 14 year old's was legal. Heck, my step-mother's marriage to her first husband when she was 14 was legal -- with her parents' consent anyway. This was decidedly post-Victorian.
Stargazer Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 On 12/22/2016 at 3:47 PM, Oliver_Cowdery said: I do what I can in this life to prevent the spread of any theological proposition that is used to hurt children and teens. That would include fighting against theological propositions such as the over reliance on faith healing, the November policy, the belief that it is better that a youth die than loose his or her virtue, bishop's having in depth interviews with teens about masturbation and sexual orientation, that a family should always be paying tithing in dire circumstances, and assertions that God would ever command old married men to marry young teen girls. I find the actions of some religious leaders to be immoral because they hurt children who cannot consent. I am not going to wait around for the final judgement to correct harmful theological beliefs. To this day people are using Joseph's actions as justification for their own actions. If we can't find it within ourselves to say marrying a 14 year old girl into secret polygamy is wrong than we are not part of the solution. I need not be the only one on this throne. There is plenty of room on this throne for you, and me, and everyone to reject teachings and ideas that harm children. But I always like to find some point of agreement. It seems to me both of our positions on morality do not hinge solely on legality. I think there is at least some agreement there. I'm coming to this party late and probably under-informed, but I think that when we compare fruit, we should compare apples with apples and not with oranges. Is the objection with polygamy/plural marriage per se, or with forced marriage regardless of numericity? Or is it with marriage between dissimilar ages? Is it OK if the man is much younger than the woman, but not the other way around? I think we can all regard forced marriage as immoral, regardless of any other characteristic. Yet there are societies, both ancient and modern, where this was and is, if not the norm, generally acceptable. For example, was the marriage between Henry V and Catherine of Valois, daughter of Charles VI of France forced? Henry defeated the French at Agincourt, and in the subsequent treaty of settlement, he received the King of France's daughter Catherine as his wife. He was 34 and she was 19. This is hardly a matter of free will, at any rate from Catherine's point of view, or so it would seem. But the marriage benefitted both England and France, so surely these larger considerations outweighed Catherine's preferences. Or should this matter? As for age differences, my father and his second wife, 7 years difference, her being older. My second marriage, 11 years difference, her being older, and my oldest stepson is only 8 years younger than I. My current wife's previous marriage, 15 years difference, her being younger. My wife's sister, 20 years difference, husband being older. My wife's daughter, 22 years difference, husband being older (40), her being only 18 with no previous boyfriends to speak of, and her oldest step-child being merely 4 years younger than she. None of these were forced, and all entered into willingly and freely by both parties. Even polygamous marriages between non-age-mates have been entered into willingly and freely. And there have been many marriages where the wife, husband or both were forced into it that have prospered and been successful -- and of course, many like them that were disasters. But then, there've been plenty of marriages where both parties went into them freely and willingly that ended up disastrous, as well. I think that we are unjustified in making generalizations. 1
Bobbieaware Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, Tacenda said: I guess it backfired, what the church did, because there is SSM now. Pretty sure the church didn't realize the consequence of it's actions. It didn't backfire. The leaders of the Church are well-acquainted with the prophecies of scripture that indicate the kingdom of the devil will be on the ascendency and successfully infect the nations of the world with much ungodly poison until the time the Lord has had enough and finally decides to pull the plug on the whole gigantic mess. The legalization of gay marriage was inevitable and I'm sure the leaders of the Church have known all along this would occur. But the fact is the Family Proclimation solemnly warns humanity that if the world rejects the sanctity of traditional marriage and family life the Lord is going to pour out cataclysmic judgements of destruction on the world. In light of the Proclamation's dire warning, if the Church leaders didn't put up a fight it would seem as if they are callous and indifferent to the fact that many are going to suffer and die this unless the people of the world repent and sustain and uphold the sanctity of the traditional family. If the leaders didn't call on the members to put up a fight, it would seem as if they didn't believe in the truthfulness of their own prophetic warning, so they had to put up a fight to clearly demonstrate they believed their own prophetic warning. So now when the devastating destructions of the Lord descend on the world, no one will be able to say that the Church didn't try to warn them. Edited December 30, 2016 by Bobbieaware
rockpond Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 38 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: It didn't backfire. The leaders of the Church are well-acquainted with the prophecies of scripture that indicate the kingdom of the devil will be on the ascendency and successfully infect the nations of the world with much ungodly poison until the time the Lord has had enough and finally decides to pull the plug on the whole gigantic mess. The legalization of gay marriage was inevitable and I'm sure the leaders of the Church have known all along this would occur. But the fact is the Family Proclimation solemnly warns humanity that if the world rejects the sanctity of traditional marriage and family life the Lord is going to pour out cataclysmic judgements of destruction on the world. In light of the Proclamation's dire warning, if the Church leaders didn't put up a fight it would seem as if they are callous and indifferent to the fact that many are going to suffer and die this unless the people of the world repent and sustain and uphold the sanctity of the traditional family. If the leaders didn't call on the members to put up a fight, it would seem as if they didn't believe in the truthfulness of their own prophetic warning, so they had to put up a fight to clearly demonstrate they believed their own prophetic warning. So now when the devastating destructions of the Lord descend on the world, no one will be able to say that the Church didn't try to warn them. Interesting way to warn the world: the Church's efforts created the case that went to SCOTUS and resulted in nationwide marriage equality. I prefer to view it as the Lord wanted gay couples to have the right to marry and He used the Church to get us there. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: In the end, your penchant for hate will hurt you very deeply. It has already so obviously warped your thinking that you continue to spend time in anti-Mormon agitation and propaganda. ------------------------- I understand that you are so angry that you will falsely portray the LDS Church as the George Wallace of gay rights, when that is absolutely opposed to fact. You need to control your reckless anger -- which will distort your own mind, if you allow it. Robert, your accusatory comments and tone are way over the top. I'm embarrassed for you. 2
california boy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: LOL. No warped feelings about the church, hey? For Mormons the same modest clothing requirements apply to men and women. Garments, which cover the same body areas for men and women, should not be exposed Warped feeling one. Mormons do not "segregate" women as part of their "religious service". In the temple they sit on different sides of the room- usually and not always, and they take different covenants. Warped feeling two Like Catholics, the first Christians, only men hold the priesthood- which is obviously a very mainstream Christian idea then. Warped feeling three The church does not pretend to be mainstream Christian in other areas so why should that be a criterion for anything? We are a RESTORED church which believes "mainstream Christian" churches are apostate. We have no desire to be "mainstream Christian". Warped feeling four. Is that hate for the church? It is not exactly warm fuzzies, and shows no understanding about the church, which makes me doubt that you ever were an active Mormon at all. You seem to understand very little about it. You even use the terminology oddly. Segregate women as part of their "religious service"? Not even specifying what "religious service" or how they are segregated, and then asking the question as if you don't know the answer? No, that's no Mormon background! And you want your children to be baptized Mormon, right? Not having them baptized has torn your family apart, right- as I recall from last week? Evidently i need to be more clear. What I was saying is that Muslims have certain beliefs and practices that they sincerely believe are important. Mormons and actually every religion have certain beliefs and practices that they believe are important. Why would any other religion criticize what another religion believes just because they are different than their own. I certainly do not believe a lot of the practices of the Muslin religion. I too think they are oppressive and certainly do not agree with how women are treated. But this might come a surprise to you. I also do not agree with many of the practices of the Mormon religion. I think they are oppressive and demeaning to gays. I was not trying to equate the Muslin religion with Mormonism at all. I was only pointing out that there are many things in Mormonism that others would not agree with either. Is this news to you? Do you think everyone outside the church agrees with the policies the Mormon church has towards women or towards gays? Should we force Muslins to conform with our beliefs just because we do not hold those same beliefs? I don't have any problem with either religion until they start to impose their beliefs on others. When a church starts to do that, then I and many others not of that faith push back. Mormons believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Fine. They can believe that forever as far as I am concerned. But when the church starts to work to take away the civil rights of others because they don't hold those same beliefs then a clash is going to occur. Now about your points. Many people outside the church think separating women from men for relief society and priesthood is just strange. Why would you do such a thing. Many people outside the church think that Mormons wearing garments is a strange practice. Do church members appreciate it when others outside the church make fun of something so sacred as garments when they refer to them as magic underwear? Not ALL Christian churches forbid women from holding the priesthood. There are so MANY teachings the Mormon church has that others feel are strange, gold plates, seer stones, polygamy, treatment of blacks, secret temple rituals etc. how could any member of the church attack the beliefs of another church. As for the personal dig at the end. All my children are baptized Mormon. They are all free to practice their faith. I don't impose my beliefs about the Mormon Church on them or others. I suppose in your eyes, I am a horrible parent for having respect for their own beliefs. Edited December 30, 2016 by california boy 1
california boy Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: It didn't backfire. The leaders of the Church are well-acquainted with the prophecies of scripture that indicate the kingdom of the devil will be on the ascendency and successfully infect the nations of the world with much ungodly poison until the time the Lord has had enough and finally decides to pull the plug on the whole gigantic mess. The legalization of gay marriage was inevitable and I'm sure the leaders of the Church have known all along this would occur. But the fact is the Family Proclimation solemnly warns humanity that if the world rejects the sanctity of traditional marriage and family life the Lord is going to pour out cataclysmic judgements of destruction on the world. In light of the Proclamation's dire warning, if the Church leaders didn't put up a fight it would seem as if they are callous and indifferent to the fact that many are going to suffer and die this unless the people of the world repent and sustain and uphold the sanctity of the traditional family. If the leaders didn't call on the members to put up a fight, it would seem as if they didn't believe in the truthfulness of their own prophetic warning, so they had to put up a fight to clearly demonstrate they believed their own prophetic warning. So now when the devastating destructions of the Lord descend on the world, no one will be able to say that the Church didn't try to warn them. Sounds like the same kinds of warning cries we get from Muslins and other religions. If the world doesn't conform to our beliefs then God is going to destroy the world unless they repent. Our church leaders know best. We call on every member of our religion to fight this holy battle against evil. This has been going on for centuries. And people wonder why so many are leaving organized religion.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 18 hours ago, california boy said: I have stated three facts. The California Supreme Court affirmed that gay couples had the civil right to marry in the State of California as guaranteed them in the state constitution. .......................................................... Federal courts throughout the country including the U.S Supreme Court have ALSO ruled that gays have equal protection under the Federal Constitution and a civil right to marry. Two of your facts are not in dispute, but you already knew that I was not disputing them, and only included them as "cover" for your false statements. I do disagree with this false statement: "The Mormon church led a major campaign to take away that civil right." You knew very well that the Roman Catholic Church led the campaign and that they asked the LDS Church to participate. In doing so, those backing Prop 8 were merely exercising their democratic rights. They did not violate the law in such a legal process. That is how democracy works, even though you attempt to create the impression that it is illegal. Unlike you, the LDS Church accepts the democratic process and the results of it, including the decisions of courts rejecting Prop 8. I don't have any problem with that and don't grouse about it. Why? Because, unlike you I actually honor our political and legal system, despite its shortcomings. You would do well to put aside your extreme hatred and do likewise. 18 hours ago, california boy said: I will ask for a CFR on ANY statement I have said that is false. I expect you to honor the CFR or withdraw the accusation that I have said anything false. We have discussed this matter many times before on this board, and you have never proved that the LDS Church led the Prop 8 campaign. That was always fake news bandied about by haters, like you. You want it to be true so much that you will say anything to make it so. 18 hours ago, california boy said: Now what part of that statement is false. Look I get that you may very well want to rewrite history and pretend that the Mormon Church did not lead the campaign to take away the civil rights of gay couples. But unlike so much of church history in the past, I for one am not willing to let members rewrite history for what ever reason they wish to forget what happened. This is a discussion board. You have made an assertion that I have falsified information about this subject. This is your chance to show me EXACTLY what I have said that is not true. Gov Wallace did not respect the law. That is why he stood in the doorway. Modern LDS leaders have not done likewise. Your false equivalence is mere flimflam. If you really were interested in actual irony, you would call constant attention to the LDS hypocrisy in not standing up for non-traditional marriage, as they did before 1890. But, once again, you have missed the mark, californiaboy.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 17 hours ago, california boy said: Robert, I wanted to address this comment you made separately because it has nothing to do with what we have been talking about. I found your comment almost comical given the discussion I had only last night with some straight friends of ours. We hadn't seen this couple for a while and after dinner they were asking how things were going. My partner and I had just come from a very nice day with my children, their spouses, my ex wife and her mother. The husband is an extremely devout Catholic and for some reason the conversation turned to religion and specifically the Mormon church since they know my background. My partner spent the next 15 minutes telling them how amazing my family is, how happy they are and how assured my grandchildren are. He related how the oldest grandchild (5 years) not only volunteered to offer the prayer on lunch even with a room full of adults, but did so eloquently and with confidence. I explained how even at a very early age, Mormon children have the opportunity to speak in Jr. Sunday School. I talked to them about my mission and the wonderful experience that was. We talked about the church correlation program and how the exact same Sunday School lesson is taught in every congregation of the church on the same week. I related how I attended church with my kids in Italy and that in teaching the lesson, the instructor referred to the previous weeks lesson. My kids knew exactly what the instructor was talking about because they had received the same lesson the week before. My friends actually knew very little about the church and how unique it is. What they did know is that the church used to discriminate against Blacks. And the church is very anti-gay. They got that impression almost exclusively from the church's actions in the Prop 8 campaign. They didn't know anything about the church's refusal to baptize children of gay parents. They asked me if I was still a practicing member, probably because I declined their offer for a glass of wine. I told them that while the church works really well for a lot of people, it doesn't work for me. They asked me if my children are active in the church. I told them all but two. And that all my siblings and father are still very active in the church. And yes, we did talk about the anti gay actions of the Catholic church as well, something that even though he is devoted, strongly disagrees with. Now does this sound like a guy filled with hate for the church? Don't be confused with my diligence in keeping members honest on the history of the church and how it treats the gay community with some kind of warped feelings about the church. Thank you for setting me straight. I was beginning to think of you as some sort of Jekyll-Hyde personality. And just to be clear, I have never had a problem with anyone saying negative things about the LDS Church or its leaders, unless of course what they say is nonsense.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: When Barak Obama came into office, he was against Gay marriage. That is how much the world has changed in 8 years, and how distorted this entire tirade against the church is. Barak Obama essentially agreed with a position very similar to that of the church. ................................. And Federal regulations at that time only recognized marriage between a man and a woman. All that has now changed, along with many state laws. The transition has been swift, and some conveniently forget what sort of legal status existed only a few short years ago. So the blame-game continues apace. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Robert, your accusatory comments and tone are way over the top. I'm embarrassed for you. So am I. 1
rockpond Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Two of your facts are not in dispute, but you already knew that I was not disputing them, and only included them as "cover" for your false statements. I do disagree with this false statement: "The Mormon church led a major campaign to take away that civil right." You knew very well that the Roman Catholic Church led the campaign and that they asked the LDS Church to participate. In doing so, those backing Prop 8 were merely exercising their democratic rights. They did not violate the law in such a legal process. That is how democracy works, even though you attempt to create the impression that it is illegal. Unlike you, the LDS Church accepts the democratic process and the results of it, including the decisions of courts rejecting Prop 8. I don't have any problem with that and don't grouse about it. Why? Because, unlike you I actually honor our political and legal system, despite its shortcomings. You would do well to put aside your extreme hatred and do likewise. We have discussed this matter many times before on this board, and you have never proved that the LDS Church led the Prop 8 campaign. That was always fake news bandied about by haters, like you. You want it to be true so much that you will say anything to make it so. Gov Wallace did not respect the law. That is why he stood in the doorway. Modern LDS leaders have not done likewise. Your false equivalence is mere flimflam. If you really were interested in actual irony, you would call constant attention to the LDS hypocrisy in not standing up for non-traditional marriage, as they did before 1890. But, once again, you have missed the mark, californiaboy. The 29 June 2008 letter from the Church stated that it was a "broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations" that put Prop 8 on the ballot. I'd be interested in your source that says it was the Catholic Church. I also don't think you can identify any one "leader" of the campaign. Many groups (including churches) united under the Protect Marriage Coalition... including the LDS Church. The 8 Oct 2008 letter from the Church is one of the sources that identifies our Church's involvement with the Protect Marriage Coalition. (Both of the letters I cited here are available on MormonNewsroom.org). The Church most certainly led a campaign to take away this civil right from gay couples in CA in that it organized members to dedicated time and resources to promote Prop 8. Whether it led "the" campaign I guess can be debated. I don't think it can be argued that Mormons, collectively, donated more time and money than any other organization. In that sense, many feel that the LDS Church did lead the campaign. If one feels that it was God's will to fight against gay marriage than they should be proud of the Church's involvement rather than trying to diminish it. The goal of the Church was to deny and (when that failed) remove this constitutional protection from gay couples. At least in the beginning the Church achieved its goal. Why do you minimize the efforts of so many church members who were diligently and faithfully following their leaders? 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: The 29 June 2008 letter from the Church stated that it was a "broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations" that put Prop 8 on the ballot. I'd be interested in your source that says it was the Catholic Church. I also don't think you can identify any one "leader" of the campaign. Many groups (including churches) united under the Protect Marriage Coalition... including the LDS Church. The 8 Oct 2008 letter from the Church is one of the sources that identifies our Church's involvement with the Protect Marriage Coalition. (Both of the letters I cited here are available on MormonNewsroom.org). The Church most certainly led a campaign to take away this civil right from gay couples in CA in that it organized members to dedicated time and resources to promote Prop 8. Whether it led "the" campaign I guess can be debated. I don't think it can be argued that Mormons, collectively, donated more time and money than any other organization. In that sense, many feel that the LDS Church did lead the campaign. If one feels that it was God's will to fight against gay marriage than they should be proud of the Church's involvement rather than trying to diminish it. The goal of the Church was to deny and (when that failed) remove this constitutional protection from gay couples. At least in the beginning the Church achieved its goal. Why do you minimize the efforts of so many church members who were diligently and faithfully following their leaders? First of all, where were you when we discussed all this in the past on this board? As I have said before: I was there and directly participated in the Prop 8 campaign. And you are correct to suggest that the LDS Church has so few members in California that it is preposterous to suggest that we dominated the campaign there -- either in numbers or money. I certainly saw other churches participating with large numbers, and I agree that it was a broadly-based coalition of churches. It was a regular part of our democratic process. No one should feel ashamed in any way, unless they reflect that Mormons once practiced non-traditional marriage and had it outlawed by their enemies and were forced to discontinue the practice. The opposite happened in this present case, as non-traditional marriage actually became the legal norm. So, I can't understand why everyone should be angry at the Mormons. They should instead be smugly satisfied that we got our comeuppance.
rockpond Posted December 30, 2016 Posted December 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: First of all, where were you when we discussed all this in the past on this board? As I have said before: I was there and directly participated in the Prop 8 campaign. And you are correct to suggest that the LDS Church has so few members in California that it is preposterous to suggest that we dominated the campaign there -- either in numbers or money. I certainly saw other churches participating with large numbers, and I agree that it was a broadly-based coalition of churches. It was a regular part of our democratic process. No one should feel ashamed in any way, unless they reflect that Mormons once practiced non-traditional marriage and had it outlawed by their enemies and were forced to discontinue the practice. The opposite happened in this present case, as non-traditional marriage actually became the legal norm. So, I can't understand why everyone should be angry at the Mormons. They should instead be smugly satisfied that we got our comeuppance. I believe it has been discussed on this board too many times to even try to guess "where I was" for each of those discussions. I didn't suggest that "the LDS Church has so few members in California that it is preposterous to suggest that we dominated the campaign there -- either in numbers or money". The data seems to show that the time and money Mormons contributed far outweighed our small percentage of the population. I've read estimates that put the total funds contributed by LDS persons at over half the total amount raised to support the amendment. Combine that with our involvement in NOM and the Protect Marriage coalition and I think it is safe to say that if the LDS Church didn't lead the campaign it was certainly one of the primary leaders. That is the point that I've been trying to make. Why do you feel the need to diminish our role? And yes, there is huge irony that we were once terribly persecuted for our beliefs regarding marriage that we would then turn around and be the persecutors. Shocking and sad irony. 3
Bobbieaware Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, california boy said: Sounds like the same kinds of warning cries we get from Muslins and other religions. If the world doesn't conform to our beliefs then God is going to destroy the world unless they repent. Our church leaders know best. We call on every member of our religion to fight this holy battle against evil. This has been going on for centuries. And people wonder why so many are leaving organized religion. The scriptures are full of such warnings and prophecies. So I guess, according to you, my only choice, if I don't want to be lumped in with the terrorists, is to give up on believing the Book of Mormon and the other standard works? By the way, in Islam it's the believers who do the destroying. Conversely, in my religion the prophecies of the latter-days say the wicked are going to destroy each other in ever expanding wars, and God is going to complete the fulfillment of the prophecies by bringing about great convulsions of nature (what the prophet Joseph Smith called "the sermon of nature"). The prophecies go on to say the righteous will be too anxiously engaged in building Zion to get caught up in all the wars that will eventually lead to a full end of all nations. Edited December 31, 2016 by Bobbieaware
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 7 hours ago, california boy said: Evidently i need to be more clear. What I was saying is that Muslims have certain beliefs and practices that they sincerely believe are important. Mormons and actually every religion have certain beliefs and practices that they believe are important. Why would any other religion criticize what another religion believes just because they are different than their own. I certainly do not believe a lot of the practices of the Muslin religion. I too think they are oppressive and certainly do not agree with how women are treated. But this might come a surprise to you. I also do not agree with many of the practices of the Mormon religion. I think they are oppressive and demeaning to gays. I was not trying to equate the Muslin religion with Mormonism at all. I was only pointing out that there are many things in Mormonism that others would not agree with either. Is this news to you? Do you think everyone outside the church agrees with the policies the Mormon church has towards women or towards gays? Should we force Muslins to conform with our beliefs just because we do not hold those same beliefs? I don't have any problem with either religion until they start to impose their beliefs on others. When a church starts to do that, then I and many others not of that faith push back. Mormons believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Fine. They can believe that forever as far as I am concerned. But when the church starts to work to take away the civil rights of others because they don't hold those same beliefs then a clash is going to occur. Now about your points. Many people outside the church think separating women from men for relief society and priesthood is just strange. Why would you do such a thing. Many people outside the church think that Mormons wearing garments is a strange practice. Do church members appreciate it when others outside the church make fun of something so sacred as garments when they refer to them as magic underwear? Not ALL Christian churches forbid women from holding the priesthood. There are so MANY teachings the Mormon church has that others feel are strange, gold plates, seer stones, polygamy, treatment of blacks, secret temple rituals etc. how could any member of the church attack the beliefs of another church. As for the personal dig at the end. All my children are baptized Mormon. They are all free to practice their faith. I don't impose my beliefs about the Mormon Church on them or others. I suppose in your eyes, I am a horrible parent for having respect for their own beliefs. No communication. Live long and prosper. I am tired of your twisting meanings intentionally to serve your purposes. Your original statement was that you "have no warped feelings" about the church, which has been blatantly false since you started here, but now at least you admit it. Please do not pose as someone who is not a church critic. The very fact that you would say "But this might come a surprise to you. I also do not agree with many of the practices of the Mormon religion" shows that you actually believe you do not present yourself as a critic, while here admitting that you are. Thanks for coming out of the closet, but it has been obvious for years. And the fact that your children have been baptized is really not relevant to anything. That is past history and part of your personal situation. They may be 20 years old and inactive for 15 years, and still be "baptized members". The question is not a personal one but a general one. The issue is why would someone who is gay WANT their 8 year old children to be baptized AND be active members of the church. considering the position of the church on the gay lifestyle But your answers often distort the question and insert an emotional twist which make the questioner appear to be making personal attacks. Anyway, I think we know each other well enough now so that I know you are a critic and have admitted it. No one has ever asserted that Mormon beliefs are "mainstream". If they were, I would not be a member I would be a "mainstream Christian".
california boy Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Two of your facts are not in dispute, but you already knew that I was not disputing them, and only included them as "cover" for your false statements. I do disagree with this false statement: "The Mormon church led a major campaign to take away that civil right." You knew very well that the Roman Catholic Church led the campaign and that they asked the LDS Church to participate. In doing so, those backing Prop 8 were merely exercising their democratic rights. They did not violate the law in such a legal process. That is how democracy works, even though you attempt to create the impression that it is illegal. Unlike you, the LDS Church accepts the democratic process and the results of it, including the decisions of courts rejecting Prop 8. I don't have any problem with that and don't grouse about it. Why? Because, unlike you I actually honor our political and legal system, despite its shortcomings. You would do well to put aside your extreme hatred and do likewise. We have discussed this matter many times before on this board, and you have never proved that the LDS Church led the Prop 8 campaign. That was always fake news bandied about by haters, like you. You want it to be true so much that you will say anything to make it so. Gov Wallace did not respect the law. That is why he stood in the doorway. Modern LDS leaders have not done likewise. Your false equivalence is mere flimflam. If you really were interested in actual irony, you would call constant attention to the LDS hypocrisy in not standing up for non-traditional marriage, as they did before 1890. But, once again, you have missed the mark, californiaboy. When the church provides 50% of the money to finance Prop 8 and 80-90% of the manpower, I call that leading the campaign for Prop 8. I would also again recommend you watch "8: The Mormon Proposition." No other church, no other organization, no other person is so identified with Prop 8 like the Mormon church. Honestly, I can't see how you can dispute these facts. If you can show me a church or organization or individual that did more to pass Prop 8 than the Mormon church, then I will withdraw my statement. If you can not provide such information, then I ask you to withdraw your assertion. From Wikipedia Quote The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[75][76][77] (LDS Church), also publicly supported the proposition. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter intended to be read in every congregation in California. In this letter, church members were encouraged to "do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time."[75] The church produced and broadcast to its congregations a program describing the support of the Proposition, and describing the timeline it proposes for what it describes as grassroots efforts to support the Proposition.[78] Local church leaders set organizational and monetary goals for their membership—sometimes quite specific—to fulfill this call.[79][80] The response of church members to their leadership's appeals to donate money and volunteer time was very supportive,[81] such that Latter-day Saints provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California.[82] LDS members contributed over $20 million,[83] about 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state.[84] ProtectMarriage, the official proponent of Proposition 8, estimates that about half the donations they received came from Mormon sources, and that LDS church members made up somewhere between 80% and 90% of the volunteers for early door-to-door canvassing.[85] I have never claimed that the Catholic church and other churches were not involved in passing Prop 8. What I have asserted, and what the facts show, is the lead that the Mormon Church took in passing Prop 8. Falsely calling me a hater does nothing to dispute these facts. And Robert, I NEVER said that the church violated any laws. I never said that the church did not have a right to participate in the democratic process. In fact, I have numerous times affirmed their very right to do so. That is not in dispute here. It never was. I don't know why you continue to attack me personally and put words in my mouth, but I try to be as clear as I can in stating the facts and provide support when those facts are called into question. Me not being willing to pretend that the church was not the major force both financially and in manpower does not mean I hate the church. What it means is that I will not allow you or anyone else to rewrite history. The church has done too much of that already. 1
california boy Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No communication. Live long and prosper. I am tired of your twisting meanings intentionally to serve your purposes. Your original statement was that you "have no warped feelings" about the church, which has been blatantly false since you started here, but now at least you admit it. Please do not pose as someone who is not a church critic. The very fact that you would say "But this might come a surprise to you. I also do not agree with many of the practices of the Mormon religion" shows that you actually believe you do not present yourself as a critic, while here admitting that you are. Thanks for coming out of the closet, but it has been obvious for years. And the fact that your children have been baptized is really not relevant to anything. That is past history and part of your personal situation. They may be 20 years old and inactive for 15 years, and still be "baptized members". The question is not a personal one but a general one. The issue is why would someone who is gay WANT their 8 year old children to be baptized AND be active members of the church. considering the position of the church on the gay lifestyle But your answers often distort the question and insert an emotional twist which make the questioner appear to be making personal attacks. Anyway, I think we know each other well enough now so that I know you are a critic and have admitted it. No one has ever asserted that Mormon beliefs are "mainstream". If they were, I would not be a member I would be a "mainstream Christian". Whatever. You can think of me as you want. I think I have been very clear in my comments. If you want to continue to think that the church has done nothing to take away the civil rights for gays to marry, then fine. If you want to continue to believe that the church treats children of gay couples in a Christ-like way, then fine. Am I a critic of that? ABSOLUTELY. I don't think that is any big secret.
california boy Posted December 31, 2016 Posted December 31, 2016 48 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The scriptures are full of such warnings and prophecies. So I guess, according to you, my only choice, if I don't want to be lumped in with the terrorists, is to give up on believing the Book of Mormon and the other standard works? By the way, in Islam it's the believers who do the destroying. Conversely, in my religion the prophecies of the latter-days say the wicked are going to destroy each other in ever expanding wars, and God is going to complete the fulfillment of the prophecies by bringing about great convulsions of nature (what the prophet Joseph Smith called "the sermon of nature"). The prophecies go on to say the righteous will be too anxiously engaged in building Zion to get caught up in all the wars that will eventually lead to a full end of all nations. Where did you get that according to me you have to give up believing the Book of Mormon? Did I say that?
Recommended Posts