Let us evolve

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Running off to the Community of Christ so I can air my every difference and gospel belief, is just not an option. The only reason I would attend there is to let them know they don't have the true gospel and priesthood, and are missing the boat. I believe the time is soon at hand when the Community of Christ will convert to the complete truth for the Book of Mormon will convict them of this truth.

Actually, what seems to be happening is the formation of schisms in their church by people who don't like what the Community of Christ has become and have gone off to form their own groups holding more traditional beliefs. They are called Restoration Branches.

Personally, I don't anticipate the Community of Christ uniting with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints any time before the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[RevTestament]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Actually, what seems to be happening is the formation of schisms in their church by people who don't like what the Community of Christ has become and have gone off to form their own groups holding more traditional beliefs. They are called Restoration Branches.

Personally, I don't anticipate the Community of Christ uniting with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints any time before the millennial reign of Christ.

Which is upon us... Like I said the BoM will convict them of the truth.

Yeah, allowing our SS to become a debate hour I believe could well result in similar schisms as the Community of Christ is experiencing. It could be very detrimental to the Church. I largely keep my opinions to myself in SS, and only offer up challenges to the lesson if I feel scripture calls for it. Sometimes I offer personal experiences as examples of gospel principles in action, etc. I believe most people attend SS to be fed according to the spirit, and not to debate.

[RevTestament]

On 12/6/2016 at 4:27 PM, stemelbow said:

Why should it not be? 

IT should be for the better of humanity, as explained.  We'd be better off allowing people to express themselves, allowing people to share what they truly are going through as it pertains the welfare of their souls.  Of course only error need fear free expression of ideas. 

I hesitate, but perhaps you should attend a Unitarian service or something like that where they value the "free exchange of ideas" before suggesting that for the Church. Many Unitarians are hardly Christian anymore - but they do talk about whatever is on their mind on Sunday - including and quite often politics. I think that is a slap in the face to our Savior...  but I guess that is why I no longer attend a Unitarian church...  

I just never felt any spirit there whatsoever. Friendly people for social hour yes, but not the spirit of affirmation that I was headed in the right direction.

[RevTestament]

This article reflects a big concern about allowing SS to be more open or allowing "debate" type discussion:

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2016/12/15/conservative-churches-grow-liberal-churches-shrink

It says: " Those who don't attend church regularly but are scouting for Christmas services this year might be surprised to find fewer mainline Protestant churches around these days.  Across the English-speaking world the numerical decline of mainline Protestantism is accelerating. The largest mainline Protestant denominations in the United States are the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church. Collectively, membership in these denominations decreases by about 1 million a year, resulting in hundreds of church closures annually. "

which protestant churches are shrinking the most?

"We surveyed more than 2,200 of the congregants, half attending growing churches and half at declining churches, and the clergy who serve them.   We found, without exception, the clergy and congregants of the growing mainline Protestant churches held more firmly to traditional Christian beliefs, such as the belief Jesus rose physically from the grave and that God answers prayer. The clergy of the growing churches were the most theologically conservative and the declining church clergy the least."

People who are searching are generally looking for an anchor in their lives. Traditional Christianity provides that anchor. It is up to us to show that the restored gospel provides the best anchor to Christ.  

 

[stemelbow]

18 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

This article reflects a big concern about allowing SS to be more open or allowing "debate" type discussion:

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2016/12/15/conservative-churches-grow-liberal-churches-shrink

It says: " Those who don't attend church regularly but are scouting for Christmas services this year might be surprised to find fewer mainline Protestant churches around these days.  Across the English-speaking world the numerical decline of mainline Protestantism is accelerating. The largest mainline Protestant denominations in the United States are the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church. Collectively, membership in these denominations decreases by about 1 million a year, resulting in hundreds of church closures annually. "

which protestant churches are shrinking the most?

"We surveyed more than 2,200 of the congregants, half attending growing churches and half at declining churches, and the clergy who serve them.   We found, without exception, the clergy and congregants of the growing mainline Protestant churches held more firmly to traditional Christian beliefs, such as the belief Jesus rose physically from the grave and that God answers prayer. The clergy of the growing churches were the most theologically conservative and the declining church clergy the least."

People who are searching are generally looking for an anchor in their lives. Traditional Christianity provides that anchor. It is up to us to show that the restored gospel provides the best anchor to Christ.  

 

There's a lot to say about this type of thinking.

1.  We don't know that the cause for the decline is that they allow SS or open debate.  That'd be a huge guess.  There are possibly plenty of complicated factors going into any sort of decline.

2.  It's an assumption that conservativism in religious belief is an anchor while the opposite is not. 

3.  Should we fear open discussion and thought because it might lead people out of the Church?  I'm not sure that's a healthy approach. 

[canard78]

On 01/12/2016 at 4:21 PM, Marmonboy said:

The new information is supposed to be in the printed material by the end of the year--it takes longer to physically print up a bazillion manuals than to post stuff on one web page.

Three years since publication? It doesn't take that long (if they wanted to). How long did the Nov policy take to get into print?

I think the church has a deeper challenge it's wrestling with, hence the delay. 

I know a lady in her 70s. She stumbled upon the essays while reading the church website. She spent about a year reading those, FAIRMormon and other topics. She no longer believes any of the church fundamentals but has decided to remain because her whole life and all of her friends are at church. 

I've another friend whose Dad said: "if I found out it's true that Joseph married other men's wives, I'd leave tomorrow." He's not found the essays and no-one (me included), plans to push them on him. He thinks it's "anti-Mormon lies."

My point is, it's one thing innoculating the younger generation but many people over 40 have grown up with a very sanitised version of church origins and the reality will be shocking for many people. 

So, on that basis, I can empathise with the leadership hesitating to pour lots of this into the official manuals. 

[churchistrue]

Looks like these changes are finally live on the church's website and in the app.  

http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/changes-in-gospel-doctrine-manual-for-2017/

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, churchistrue said:

Looks like these changes are finally live on the church's website and in the app.  

http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/changes-in-gospel-doctrine-manual-for-2017/

Moving forward.  That's great.  Thanks for the notice.  Wasn't sure when the change was going to happen.

[Calm]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865669945/Essays-on-Mormon-history-doctrine-find-new-visibility-in-official-app-Sunday-School.html

"Most Mormons haven't read the 11 clear-eyed essayspublished by their church on 11 complex topics in the faith's history and doctrine, like polygamy and the differing versions of the First Vision.

Many haven't even heard about them, but that's about to change, beginning in January with additions to the Sunday School lessons in 20,000 congregations in North and South America.

Mormon leaders drew widespread praise for what are known as the Gospel Topics essays soon after they first appeared in November 2013. But some in and out of the church who appreciated them felt their potential positive impact on congregational conversations about, say, the former ban on blacks holding the priesthood, was blunted by the way the essays rolled out one or two at a time without fanfare amid a maze of other content on lds.org.

What the official Church Historian and Recorder, Elder Steven E. Snow, described as a "soft launch" left room for a small group to question whether the essays were official — each was approved by the First Presidency, the faith's highest governing body — while the majority of Mormons in the pews didn't know they existed.

The soft launch was deliberate. The essays had a practical purpose, leaders said. They intended the essays to help people find official answers to questions they might have when researching a specific topic online. And they were also meant to be widely used over time.

The new materials will now be integrated into everyday church teachings for teenagers, at the faith's colleges and in Sunday classes.

"We are making extraordinary efforts to provide accurate context and understanding of the teachings of the Restoration," said Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in a February appearance that sparked the additions to the Sunday School curriculum.

Increased visibility

For more than a year now the essays have been part of new courses for 375,000 teenage seminary students and a new class, Foundations of the Restoration, for a similar number of college-age students in Institute courses at colleges and universities or in classes at the church's three Brigham Young University campuses.

Many Mormon parents, in fact, have been introduced to the Gospel Topics essays as their teens and young adults come home or call home to talk about how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using not just the more familiar Urim and Thummim instrument, but by also using a seer stone at times to translate the golden plates he was intrusted with.

BrandView

Church leaders intend the essays and the course materials to provide scholarship, historical perspectives and outside resources that increase member understanding of complicated events in church history and complex doctrines.

On May 1, the church noted in a new manual for every teacher in the lay church, "Teaching in the Savior's Way," that "the church has published Gospel Topics essays to help answer questions about church history and controversial issues. Become familiar with official church resources, and encourage those who have questions to study them as well."

At the same time, the church grouped the essays together in one place for the first time in its popular Gospel Library app, used actively by more than 3 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The essays also are easier to find on lds.org, which asks teachers to "encourage members to study the Gospel Topics essays."

And in January, the essays will be introduced in LDS adult Sunday School classes as a part of some small alterations to the manual for study of the Doctrine and Covenants, one of four standard works of scripture in the church.

"We're using essentially the same manual with some additional links to supporting materials to help students and teachers answer questions," said Matthew McBride, web content manager for the Church History Department...."

[Guest]

On December 1, 2016 at 10:24 AM, stemelbow said:

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4654869-155/new-scholarship-coming-to-mormon-lessons?fullpage=1

I think we're getting to a point where it is more and more acceptable to face the facts at Church.  For along time some of us have been going to Church feeling silenced because tough issues are largely shouted out, while the majority feel obliged to toe party lines and pretend they know that which they don't know in order to keep the peace, or whatever.  I'm happy for the future.  But we're still pretty stuck.  Curious the effect reality will have on our Church and religion.  Maybe I'm too harsh or whatever....but we'll see.

I'd agree with the quotes above in every particular.  There's not a lot of room to discuss our faith these days.  Probalby more than there was in some ways.  In the end, we'll need to continue to push for openness and acceptance else we'll lose the younger generations.  That's my estimation.  I know plenty will continue to dig in heels, insist the Church is perfect while the people aren't (or whatever), and resist in every way change.  But, I don't think it'll be stopped.

 

 

As Elder Holland mentioned in a Conference address..."the gospel teacher is not called to create new lesson plans, but are called to teach the prescribed material". Many often, often speak of (to use your words) "face the facts" often view "facts" differently. Just because some view something as true, does not make it fact. Also this generation is no different, all people what the truth and to be taught the truth. To suggest otherwise is disrespectful of those who ar older, and those that have gone before. All what truth. But all members young and old go to Church to be taught the Gospel, and should feel protected with the idea that classes will not devolve into opinion debates and speculation. There is plenty of time to speculate in the halls of the literal, and the halls and chat rooms of the Internet. I am teaching again in Priesthood, and as always leave my opinion at the door, as I always have lays done. The classes I teach are not mine, and I will not, nor let anyone else hijack the class to serve their own agenda. 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

As Elder Holland mentioned in a Conference address..."the gospel teacher is not called to create new lesson plans, but are called to teach the prescribed material". Many often, often speak of (to use your words) "face the facts" often view "facts" differently. Just because some view something as true, does not make it fact. Also this generation is no different, all people what the truth and to be taught the truth. To suggest otherwise is disrespectful of those who ar older, and those that have gone before. All what truth. But all members young and old go to Church to be taught the Gospel, and should feel protected with the idea that classes will not devolve into opinion debates and speculation. There is plenty of time to speculate in the halls of the literal, and the halls and chat rooms of the Internet. I am teaching again in Priesthood, and as always leave my opinion at the door, as I always have lays done. The classes I teach are not mine, and I will not, nor let anyone else hijack the class to serve their own agenda. 

I consider this a very valid point.
Sunday school lessons etc belong to the Church.  They are not our personal venues.  We are called to a position to do a job directed by the Church.  We should honor that.
The downside of course is the limited content within the prescribed material and the unwillingness of many to do any personal research at all.  But again, it is the Church's prerogative to keep members gospel knowledge as basic as possible.
Thanks be to Heavenly Father for those outside sources and resources.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited December 29, 2016 by Tacenda

[Guest]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I consider this a very valid point.
Sunday school lessons etc belong to the Church.  They are not our personal venues.  We are called to a position to do a job directed by the Church.  We should honor that.
The downside of course is the limited content within the prescribed material and the unwillingness of many to do any personal research at all.  But again, it is the Church's prerogative to keep members gospel knowledge as basic as possible.
Thanks be to Heavenly Father for those outside sources and resources.

I do a lot of research, each week I sit on the floor or at the table, and it looks like an explosion of books all around. This is for the question and answer part of my class, so that I will be ready to direct or redirect to the material I am called to teach. I bring my preparation, and personality, but check my ego at the door. It is true that there are limits, but time is one of those limitations. 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I do a lot of research, each week I sit on the floor or at the table, and it looks like an explosion of books all around. This is for the question and answer part of my class, so that I will be ready to direct or redirect to the material I am called to teach. I bring my preparation, and personality, but check my ego at the door. It is true that there are limits, but time is one of those limitations.

So you don't consider bringing in extra research and information to violate "the gospel teacher is not called to create new lesson plans, but are called to teach the prescribed material"?  You use it only for your own benefit and keep the lesson only on the manual?

I suppose if it's just to keep YOU more knowledgeable on the topic there is a difference between gaining the knowledge yourself and presenting it to the class as extracurricular.  Seems a little like getting a PhD to teach kindergarten.

[Calm]

Using teaching as a motivator for personal study is a great idea, imo.  Study came more routinely for me even when teaching CTRs in Primary.

Also, knowing the answers or at least your own answers can help prevent derailment while satisfying the person who asks the question by being able to give advice on how they can also find an answer for themselves.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you don't consider bringing in extra research and information to violate "the gospel teacher is not called to create new lesson plans, but are called to teach the prescribed material"?  You use it only for your own benefit and keep the lesson only on the manual?

I suppose if it's just to keep YOU more knowledgeable on the topic there is a difference between gaining the knowledge yourself and presenting it to the class as extracurricular.  Seems a little like getting a PhD to teach kindergarten.

I use it for the benefit of anticipating questions and answers, so that I will be prepared to (as I said) direct and redirect classes. I do this so that my classes (or should Isay) their classes do not get hijacked by hobby topics and the like. 

[Gray]

On 12/12/2016 at 2:02 PM, RevTestament said:

Which is upon us... Like I said the BoM will convict them of the truth.

Yeah, allowing our SS to become a debate hour I believe could well result in similar schisms as the Community of Christ is experiencing. It could be very detrimental to the Church. I largely keep my opinions to myself in SS, and only offer up challenges to the lesson if I feel scripture calls for it. Sometimes I offer personal experiences as examples of gospel principles in action, etc. I believe most people attend SS to be fed according to the spirit, and not to debate.

The LDS branch has plenty of schisms too

[Gray]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:56 AM, RevTestament said:

This article reflects a big concern about allowing SS to be more open or allowing "debate" type discussion:

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2016/12/15/conservative-churches-grow-liberal-churches-shrink

It says: " Those who don't attend church regularly but are scouting for Christmas services this year might be surprised to find fewer mainline Protestant churches around these days.  Across the English-speaking world the numerical decline of mainline Protestantism is accelerating. The largest mainline Protestant denominations in the United States are the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church. Collectively, membership in these denominations decreases by about 1 million a year, resulting in hundreds of church closures annually. "

which protestant churches are shrinking the most?

"We surveyed more than 2,200 of the congregants, half attending growing churches and half at declining churches, and the clergy who serve them.   We found, without exception, the clergy and congregants of the growing mainline Protestant churches held more firmly to traditional Christian beliefs, such as the belief Jesus rose physically from the grave and that God answers prayer. The clergy of the growing churches were the most theologically conservative and the declining church clergy the least."

People who are searching are generally looking for an anchor in their lives. Traditional Christianity provides that anchor. It is up to us to show that the restored gospel provides the best anchor to Christ.  

 

"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."