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No Big 12 for BYU


bsjkki

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2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I don't think this is really is surprising with the political climate and political correctness. http://www.sltrib.com/home/4476946-155/byu-athletics-big-12-presidents-say  No one got in so maybe it had nothing to do with religion and policies.

I think it had more to do with the 10 current Big 12 schools not wanting to lessen their shares of the current television contract than anything else.

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I predicted this weeks ago.  Yeah I know I am not the only one, but really what did you expect.  

From the article

Quote

"Our national fan base and broadcast ratings, along with the many historical and recent successes of our teams, attest we certainly belong," BYU said in a statement released after the Big 12 announced its decision. "We believe that BYU can significantly contribute to the athletic and academic excellence of a [Power 5] conference."

All what BYU stated is true.  What they failed to also mention is the discrimination policies against LGBT that are not likely to change any time soon.  While this is a blow to BYU, I don't think this issue is over for BYU.  One simply has to look at the church's past discrimination practices against blacks to figure out what is next.

 

 

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On 10/19/2016 at 5:40 PM, california boy said:

I predicted this weeks ago.  Yeah I know I am not the only one, but really what did you expect.  

From the article

All what BYU stated is true.  What they failed to also mention is the discrimination policies against LGBT that are not likely to change any time soon.  While this is a blow to BYU, I don't think this issue is over for BYU.  One simply has to look at the church's past discrimination practices against blacks to figure out what is next.

 

 

yeah those LGBTs are forced to go to BYU.

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On 10/19/2016 at 7:40 PM, california boy said:

I predicted this weeks ago.  Yeah I know I am not the only one, but really what did you expect.  

From the article

All what BYU stated is true.  What they failed to also mention is the discrimination policies against LGBT that are not likely to change any time soon.  While this is a blow to BYU, I don't think this issue is over for BYU.  One simply has to look at the church's past discrimination practices against blacks to figure out what is next.

 

 

Mandatory gay marriages for all BYU students?

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On 10/20/2016 at 9:32 PM, rodheadlee said:

yeah those LGBTs are forced to go to BYU.

Do you really not know what discrimination is? Here is a clue.  Not allowing married gay couples to go to BYU.  Not allowing gay students to date, hold hands, kiss etc just like straight couples.

Look.  I get that the church considers these things sinful.  And they have every right to have whatever belief they want.  They also have every right to discriminate against gays any way they want.

But others have the same right to not participate with those who discriminate.  The government has every right to withhold federal dollars from those that do not meet their conditions and requirements for such tax dollars.  And the Big 12 has every right to not include BYU into their league if it feels that by doing so would be detrimental to THEIR beliefs and standards.  Other universities have every right to refuse to play BYU in sporting events.  If you support BYU's right to discriminate, then you also have to accept the right for others to discriminate.  Yeah.  It is that simple.

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you really not know what discrimination is? Here is a clue.  Not allowing married gay couples to go to BYU.  Not allowing gay students to date, hold hands, kiss etc just like straight couples.

Look.  I get that the church considers these things sinful.  And they have every right to have whatever belief they want.  They also have every right to discriminate against gays any way they want.

But others have the same right to not participate with those who discriminate.  The government has every right to withhold federal dollars from those that do not meet their conditions and requirements for such tax dollars.  And the Big 12 has every right to not include BYU into their league if it feels that by doing so would be detrimental to THEIR beliefs and standards.  Other universities have every right to refuse to play BYU in sporting events.  If you support BYU's right to discriminate, then you also have to accept the right for others to discriminate.  Yeah.  It is that simple.

I believe it's just fine if we don't sell out for money. Of course Notre Dame is being held to the same standards by the LGBT community? or does their huge voting/ financial bloc sway things just a bit. If Notre Dame wanted to join the Big12, the Big10 or the ACC they would be falling all over themselves to get that money in their pocket.

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20 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you really not know what discrimination is? Here is a clue.  Not allowing married gay couples to go to BYU.  Not allowing gay students to date, hold hands, kiss etc just like straight couples.

Look.  I get that the church considers these things sinful.  And they have every right to have whatever belief they want.  They also have every right to discriminate against gays any way they want.

But others have the same right to not participate with those who discriminate.  The government has every right to withhold federal dollars from those that do not meet their conditions and requirements for such tax dollars.  And the Big 12 has every right to not include BYU into their league if it feels that by doing so would be detrimental to THEIR beliefs and standards.  Other universities have every right to refuse to play BYU in sporting events.  If you support BYU's right to discriminate, then you also have to accept the right for others to discriminate.  Yeah.  It is that simple.

So you admit that the Big 12 did “discriminate” against BYU in the same sense as you accuse BYU of “discriminating“ against those  who engage in certain behaviors?  (Assuming, of course, that their decision was based on BYU’s faith-based standards).  

Every right?  Actually, the federal government does not have “every right to withhold tax dollars from those that do not meet their conditions and requirements”  The government’s “rights” are restricted by the Constitution, including the 1st and 14th amendments.  I am unaware of any similar Constitutional constraints on the right of faith-based organizations to “discriminate“  (i.e., “choose“)  based on how an individual’s behavior conforms to its faith-based standards.  Are you?

BTW, if the Big 12 were made up entirely of private universities, I would agree that they had as much right to reject BYU based on their standards as BYU has to reject a student based on its standards. Since, it is actually made up of both state and private schools, it is more of a grey area.  But given that BYU still has viable alternatives (such as remaining independent), I would much rather err on the side of liberty.
 

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22 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I believe it's just fine if we don't sell out for money. Of course Notre Dame is being held to the same standards by the LGBT community? or does their huge voting/ financial bloc sway things just a bit. If Notre Dame wanted to join the Big12, the Big10 or the ACC they would be falling all over themselves to get that money in their pocket.

Not sure why you decided to pick on Notre Dame or how that fits into the issues that BYU has with LGBT students.  But since you brought it up, BYU could certainly take a page from Notre Dame plan on how to make sure gay students feel welcome and inclusive.  Here is their program from their official web site.  Take a look and you decide if BYU could institute such a program.

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3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

So you admit that the Big 12 did “discriminate” against BYU in the same sense as you accuse BYU of “discriminating“ against those  who engage in certain behaviors?  (Assuming, of course, that their decision was based on BYU’s faith-based standards).  

Of course I admit that there is a very good chance that the Big 12 decided to not include BYU into their group based on the discrimination policies that BYU has against gay students.  Who would argue with that?  And sure if you want to call that being discriminated against then I am fine with that as well.  The difference is the Big 12 is discriminating against an institution that discriminates against an entire class of people.  Can you see their point?  If not, perhaps these articles will help you out.

Here is an article from ESPN

Quote

"Currently, the Big 12 as a conference is overwhelmingly LGBT-inclusive," the letter reads. "BYU, conversely, actively and openly discriminates against its LGBT students and staff. It provides no protections for LGBT students. In fact, through its policies, BYU is very clear about its intent to discriminate against openly LGBT students, with sanctions that can include suspension or dismissal for being openly LGBT or in a same-sex relationship."

And another one

Quote

BYU is different from the other major religion-based FBS universities like Notre Dame and Boston College in terms of the “strictness” of their honor code. A student honor code isn’t out of the norm at all; however, the school’s stance on homosexual relations as well as relations outside of marriage do tend to differ from the majority of FBS schools.

 

3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Every right?  Actually, the federal government does not have “every right to withhold tax dollars from those that do not meet their conditions and requirements”  The government’s “rights” are restricted by the Constitution, including the 1st and 14th amendments.  I am unaware of any similar Constitutional constraints on the right of faith-based organizations to “discriminate“  (i.e., “choose“)  based on how an individual’s behavior conforms to its faith-based standards.  Are you?

You do realize that Title lX was upheld by this very conservative Supreme Court right?? Read their decision if you don't understand why the court ruled in favor of Title lX

 

3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

BTW, if the Big 12 were made up entirely of private universities, I would agree that they had as much right to reject BYU based on their standards as BYU has to reject a student based on its standards. Since, it is actually made up of both state and private schools, it is more of a grey area.  But given that BYU still has viable alternatives (such as remaining independent), I would much rather err on the side of liberty.
 

You have to really twist things backwards if you are contending that a league can not choose to exclude a university that discriminates against gays or anyone else.  

Just wait until the NCAA starts excluding schools that discriminate like they did the State of North Carolina  

Or the NBA

Or the National Association of Intercollegiant Athletics (NAIA)  

Of course BYU has the right to discriminate against gay students based on the First Amendment.  But it is really not all that difficult to see where this policy will lead to.  Boycotting institutions that discriminate has long been a part of American's resolve to stand up against discrimination.  It is the main tool used to pass the Civil Rights laws 50 years ago.  There is no doubt where this is headed IMO.

 

 

 

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This whole argument is for nothing. the Big 12 had 25 million reasons not to invite anyone to join  their conference. They are not going to split their pie up with anyone else and will remain 10 teams. When their TV contract is up in 2025 the odds are the Big 12 will cease to exist.

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