Gold Plates discovered in Hill Cumorah

[Anijen]

27 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Interesting point, but makes me wonder: did Moroni write in Reformed Egyptian or Mayan Glyphs? 

My assumption (and that is all it is) would be in a language the people understood.

 

Quote

It almost strikes me as less likely that the Nephites would have two scripts running at the same time. There's no evidence of that in Mesoamerica.

I am not a scholar of the Mayan culture however, I have read (somewhere) the Mayans could have been culturally different from another Mayan group thirty miles away. I would also assume this melting pot of cultures were probably bilingual at the least. I wouldn't discount their ability to read or write in "two different scripts."  Not Reformed-Egyptian, that was reserved IMO for the authors of the Book of Mormon.

 

11 minutes ago, Ed Goble said:

... evidence.... Evidence ... evidence ... evidence.  ... evidence or lack thereof prohibitive.

I admit I do put a lot of emphasis on evidence. I am graduating with my Jurist Doctor here in about six months, perhaps it is in my nature. Evidence can put a person away for life or give him his liberty. Yes, I put a lot of emphasis on its probative value.

For example all courts are governed by rules of evidence. These rules describe which evidence are admissible and what is not. It is the evidence that proves a fact or an issue. The evidence that is deemed "probative" establishes and contributes to proof.

The lack of evidence for a Great Lakes setting or for a final battle in New York is lacking.

The heaps of bones witnessed in journals were not from the a fierce battle near Palmyra (no journal has heaps of bones near here), but were placed in heaps to discourage the white settlers from coming into their villages and spreading disease. The natives did not know what disease was, but they did know it came when the "white man" came. Oh and this was obviously post-Columbus, hence, not Book of Mormon times.

The basket of arrow heads are from many different areas and times and were gathered to sell to the gullible "Mormons" specifically because of their belief in a final battle near there.

The relics of ancient writing specifically ten commandments or Hebrew have all been fakes. Although there are some legitimate Viking sites.

There is no evidence of writing among the New York area, or any other area until way after Columbus. The exception would be in Central America and later down in South America.

Trees, trees, and a lot more trees north of the Hopewell.

Adena and Hopewell were in the same area. The Jaredites and Nephites were not.

No metal work (all cold-hammered copper).

Temperature, kind of hard to survive in New York in January with just a loin cloth.

The greatest population level of the Hopewell was 50K around 1150-1200 AD (this is actually evidence against the Hopewell)

I will give you;

Lots of water in the great lakes area

Roads

I could go on but I need to get back to my studies.

 

 

[Ed Goble]

19 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Great, i'll be sending my research notes over to you soon. It may require a few days for you to go through them. Thanks in advance.

Nice.

Actually, I do find your idea already plausible, from an argumentation point of view, much like the Malay theory.  I personally, in my personal belief system, I think that I would place it on the American continent.  But I don't fault you for putting it in a place that makes it more easily supportable than in the Americas.

[Ed Goble]

15 minutes ago, Anijen said:

My assumption (and that is all it is) would be in a language the people understood.

 

I am not a scholar of the Mayan culture however, I have read (somewhere) the Mayans could have been culturally different from another Mayan group thirty miles away. I would also assume this melting pot of cultures were probably bilingual at the least. I wouldn't discount their ability to read or write in "two different scripts."  Not Reformed-Egyptian, that was reserved IMO for the authors of the Book of Mormon.

 

I admit I do put a lot of emphasis on evidence. I am graduating with my Jurist Doctor here in about six months, perhaps it is in my nature. Evidence can put a person away for life or give him his liberty. Yes, I put a lot of emphasis on its probative value.

For example all courts are governed by rules of evidence. These rules describe which evidence are admissible and what is not. It is the evidence that proves a fact or an issue. The evidence that is deemed "probative" establishes and contributes to proof.

The lack of evidence for a Great Lakes setting or for a final battle in New York is lacking.

The heaps of bones witnessed in journals were not from the a fierce battle near Palmyra (no journal has heaps of bones near here), but were placed in heaps to discourage the white settlers from coming into their villages and spreading disease. The natives did not know what disease was, but they did know it came when the "white man" came. Oh and this was obviously post-Columbus, hence, not Book of Mormon times.

The basket of arrow heads are from many different areas and times and were gathered to sell to the gullible "Mormons" specifically because of their belief in a final battle near there.

The relics of ancient writing specifically ten commandments or Hebrew have all been fakes. Although there are some legitimate Viking sites.

There is no evidence of writing among the New York area, or any other area until way after Columbus. The exception would be in Central America and later down in South America.

Trees, trees, and a lot more trees north of the Hopewell.

Adena and Hopewell were in the same area. The Jaredites and Nephites were not.

No metal work (all cold-hammered copper).

Temperature, kind of hard to survive in New York in January with just a loin cloth.

The greatest population level of the Hopewell was 50K around 1150-1200 AD (this is actually evidence against the Hopewell)

I will give you;

Lots of water in the great lakes area

Roads

I could go on but I need to get back to my studies.

 

 

Well, you know, I've already made my statement.  Good luck my friend in your studies.

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

This is pretty amazing.  Am I reading this right?  Are you actually suggesting that there is a portal like a stargate/wormhole in the New York Hill to some other Hill Cumorah where the plates actually reside?  I think I'd rather put my faith in something like a spiritually "cloaked" room inside the hill near Palmyra rather than a stargate.  I mean, as Mormons, we are willing to have a lot of faith in a lot of things, but let's not get into science fiction now.

It reminds me of my second favorite hymn, "If you Could Hie To The Secret Cave of Records, Using The Portkey At the Second Hill Cumorah Located in Upper State New York."

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Were there cavalry units mentioned in any Book of Mormon battle? Or mass production of steel swords?

 

[

14] And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

2 Nephi 5

Edited September 7, 2016 by cinepro

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

Or, we could just say that some physical change came upon the plates akin to a change in the human body like translation that changed their properties so that they would not degrade.  I'm not satisfied with just the "patina" explanation.

As a working artist, who creates his own bronze and, in custom ordered cases, brass, from recycled copper, zinc, tin and lead, using his own personal foundry. I am very familiar with what will happen to brass under normal circumstances. I agree with you that God may have done something to them and that is the reason why I had this clause in my post that you replied to, which I think you may have overlooked:

3 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

......or by some kind of miracle that God set in place.

That said, I am quite certain the gold plates would retain whatever amount of shininess they were originally polished to, since gold doesn't oxidize.

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

Actually, these are all parts from the Book of the Dead Papyrus, identified with the Book of Joseph.  The portions that were identified with the Book of Abraham are those from the Sensen Papyrus and its two Facsimiles and the Hypocephalus.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the search for "red ink" is based on an observation by Oliver Cowdery, right?  I was just pointing out that it's possible that when describing one of the artifacts as having writing with "red ink", it's possible he was referring to the papyrus that has writing in ink that is red.  I'm not sure we need to theorize that he was referring to some other missing papyrus that also had red ink and not the one that we have that actually has red ink. 

But of course we all do what we need to.

[thesometimesaint]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here and here and here and here?

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml

[Anijen]

20 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It reminds me of my second favorite hymn, "If you Could Hie To The Secret Cave of Records, Using The Portkey At the Second Hill Cumorah Located in Upper State New York."

Love that hymn.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, cinepro said:

[14] And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

2 Nephi 5

 

How do you define "many"? At that time the Nephites were numbered in a few dozens. This could reasonably be read that Nephi used the sword of Laban as a template, but it does not specify the materials from which he made them. Other than the sword of Laban and those of Shule, no Nephite or Lamanite swords are described as made of steel. Certainly not in the monumental battles at Cumorah.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[cinepro]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml

I did.  As noted in the post above yours, I'm willing to assume that when Oliver described Egyptian writing in black with some red ink, he was referring to the artifact with the Egyptian writing in black with some red ink.  I don't really feel compelled to theorize that he wasn't referring to that artifact with black and red ink but instead some other, unknown artifact that also had black and red ink and also happened to contain source material that is in some way related to the Book of Abraham.  I'm not sure why anyone else would.

Wait, I take that back.  I totally know why someone else would.

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you define "many"? At that time the Nephites were numbered in a few dozens. This could reasonably be read that Nephi used the sword of Laban as a template, but it does not specify the materials from which he made them. Other than the sword of Laban and those of Shule, no Nephite or Lamanite swords are described as made of steel. Certainly not in the monumental battles at Cumorah.

 

 

I was just answering your question.  You asked where in The Book of Mormon the "mass production of steel swords" is mentioned.  I showed you where Nephi claims to have made "many" swords patterned after a steel sword.  As for the materials from which he made them, the next verse says:

Quote

 

[14] And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

[15] And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

So they had steel technology, ores in "great abundance", and a steel sword to use as a template.   It would seem to me that Nephi is saying they made many steel swords.  And it says this "in The Book of Mormon", which is what you asked.

If you had simply cut to the chase and said "Were there cavalry units mentioned in any Book of Mormon battle or mass production of steel swords using language that is so unequivocal and clear that no one can deny it, even if they are totally committed to not believing it?" then I would have agreed that there is nothing in The Book of Mormon that meets that standard of compulsion.  So you got me there. 

I freely admit that my ability to cut and paste from The Book of Mormon text is powerless in the face of even a mildly creative apologist.  In answering the question, I didn't mean to wade into a battle of creative interpretation.

 

ETA: Can someone please tell me what the heck is going on with this piece of garbage discussion board?  Why do my quotes always include the stuff after the quote, and why can't I go back and edit the quote to fix it?

Could be a problem with your piece of garbage computer or perhaps your piece of garbage internet browser.  Have you tried switching either to see if the problem persists?

[Ed Goble]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

As a working artist, who creates his own bronze and, in custom ordered cases, brass, from recycled copper, zinc, tin and lead, using his own personal foundry. I am very familiar with what will happen to brass under normal circumstances. I agree with you that God may have done something to them and that is the reason why I had this clause in my post that you replied to, which I think you may have overlooked:

That said, I am quite certain the gold plates would retain whatever amount of shininess they were originally polished to, since gold doesn't oxidize.

Well, being believers, Mormons have to resort to some level of resorting to "God did it" on some level.  We can try to strive for pure secular rationality to whatever degree possible, but without actually sacrificing our identity.  For me, Cumorah in New York is an identity thing, setting me apart from most Mesoamericanists.  It is a religious belief for me.  Yes, I know.  Mormons don't need to believe things they don't have to believe to remain Mormon.  For me this is a choice, just like in the case of basic Mormonism, it is a choice for all Mormons.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

Nice.

Actually, I do find your idea already plausible, from an argumentation point of view, much like the Malay theory.  I personally, in my personal belief system, I think that I would place it on the American continent.  But I don't fault you for putting it in a place that makes it more easily supportable than in the Americas.

Thanks Ed. I wasn't really going to send you my notes, but I truly appreciate your comment. You definitely passed "no hypocrisy" test.

I look at it this way, my faith is that the Book of Mormon is a historical account of the inhabitants of the American continent and my understanding is that, for now at least, it makes more sense elsewhere. 

The two ends will intersect someday. Insha Allah.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I was just answering your question.  You asked where in The Book of Mormon the "mass production of steel swords" is mentioned.  I showed you where Nephi claims to have made "many" swords patterned after a steel sword.  As for the materials from which he made them, the next verse says:

ETA: Can someone please tell me what the heck is going on with this piece of garbage discussion board?  Why do my quotes always include the stuff after the quote, and why can't I go back and edit the quote to fix it?

You know what I meant when I rejected the assertion of mass production of steel swords. Read in the proper context, Nephi making a few for his family to defend themselves does not qualify as mass production, which is what

the post in question asked for.... that one would expect thousands of swords at the site of the Book of Mormon battles, Cumorah specifically. I don't understand your animus.

Quote

 Ed Goble:  "I want specific evidence for battles with steels swords and horses around Mesoamerican sites then before we can consider them to be actual Book of Mormon sites.Unfortunate that you care so little about context in order to make your points. "

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

ETA: Can someone please tell me what the heck is going on with this piece of garbage discussion board?  Why do my quotes always include the stuff after the quote, and why can't I go back and edit the quote to fix it?

I believe this is the problem.  Let's suppose that you are doing a reply, but decide to abandon it.  You think it is erased, but it remains in a temp file.

Then, when you do an new reply, the OLD stuff is copied into your new reply, because abandoning or canceling the reply does not automatically erase it.   It is very annoying.

Also trying to delete a quote box  is really awkward.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by cdowis

[cinepro]

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You know what I meant when I rejected the assertion of mass production of steel swords. Read in the proper context, Nephi making a few for his family to defend themselves does not qualify as mass production, which is what

the post in question asked for.... that one would expect thousands of swords at the site of the Book of Mormon battles, Cumorah specifically. I don't understand your animus.

 

I'm not sure how you know how many Nephites there were.  You say "a few" swords, yet Nephi himself says "many".

So yes, if we ignore what The Book of Mormon says and go with what you say, then it was a few swords.

The text also says:

 13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land. [/quote

And according to some, there were "others" in the land the converted and joined the Nephites.  How many of these people were there?  100?  1,000? 10,000?

It's not "animus."  You asked where The Book of Mormon said something, I showed you, but now you're saying "That's not what it really says."  At some point, I would expect someone to look at what they're typing and realize "Wait, it actually says that but I'm pretending it doesn't because I don't want it to!", but for some reason that never happens.  You just double down.

Skeptics also get endless grief anytime it is even hinted that we should expect anything to be found anywhere related to The Book of Mormon, but somehow you were able to type "one would expect thousands of swords" without (I suspect) even a hint of uneasiness. 

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

Well, being believers, Mormons have to resort to some level of resorting to "God did it" on some level.  We can try to strive for pure secular rationality to whatever degree possible, but without actually sacrificing our identity.  For me, Cumorah in New York is an identity thing, setting me apart from most Mesoamericanists.  It is a religious belief for me.  Yes, I know.  Mormons don't need to believe things they don't have to believe to remain Mormon.  For me this is a choice, just like in the case of basic Mormonism, it is a choice for all Mormons.

I was originally only responding to a post by ThePlains who said that the brass plates were probably shiny like the gold plates because the church has artists' depictions of them being shiny. I really doubt that the brass plates were physically shiny, because brass gains a patina pretty easily since it generally has about a 70-80 percent copper content. They don't need to be physically shiny to be perfectly preserved. Only the very outside layer oxidizes which creates the patina, once it is a patina, it no longer oxidizes and protects the brass underneath it from further oxidation. It only degrades if the brass is low quality and the zinc isn't thoroughly mixed in the alloy. The zinc will then oxidize all the way throughout the brass wherever it isn't blended together with the copper, creating pits and holes, but I digress. I am just saying that there would be no need to keep the brass plates polished in order for them to be completely readable and preserved. It would actually wear it away faster if it kept getting polished. I'm quite certain that, depending on the type of salts and oils that came into contact with the brass plates they very well could look like the photos of metal plates that were posted in this thread earlier. I think the scripture stating that the plates were shiny was referring to them shining full of the Light of Christ, IMO.

That all said, I don't have any opinion on where the actual plates were found, buried, or where the hill Cumorah actually resides. None of that really matters much to me, since I have already gained a convincing answer directly from the source (God) that the BoM is true. I wouldn't mind someday finding out those details, but I can only allocate my time into certain things and sorting through all the speculations and archaeological findings isn't what I feel like spending all my time with, so I will leave that up to the people who have that drive. I will very much appreciate all their hard work when, and if, they ever come upon a definite answer as to where the BoM stories actually took place. Until then I will leave that up to you guys to hash out.... Aloha!

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

I'm not sure how you know how many Nephites there were.  You say "a few" swords, yet Nephi himself says "many".

So yes, if we ignore what The Book of Mormon says and go with what you say, then it was a few swords.

The problem with "many" is that you are looking at it from your modern POV.  

When Nephi was making those swords, how many Nephites were of fighting age at that time, and taking into account the number of Lamanites who had split off.  So, even with the "others" or allies, perhaps 100 swords were "many", from his perspective.

You see, those who are unfamiliar with the BOM don't catch those small details.

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Ed Goble said:

I don't think I agree with this.  Rather, I think that the plates would pass all the tests for being ancient, and scholars would actually be able to find relationships between the "reformed Egyptian" and regular Egyptian with a lot more content.  In other words, having both the English text of the Book of Mormon and the Egyptian text, we would have one huge thing like a rosetta stone, where we had examples of texts in multiple languages.  With the rosetta stone, it was just a small amount of text.  Witih the book of Mormon plates, it would be a huge amount of text.  It would actually prove the Book of Mormon to be true without question, to where it would be something that the world could not deny, that it is indeed an ancient artifact, and of course, this would prove Joseph Smith to be real.  There would be no reason for faith, and for that reason, the Lord is withholding the proof, because it would actually be proof.

Wow, cool!  I don't know why I have never thought of this, but I believe you make a good point with this.

On the other hand, I wonder if the Lord embellished the translation He gave to Joseph with words that were, strictly speaking, not in the engraved text?  I know that some languages require interpretation and not just translation, when going from the source to the target language.  This would be even more true with very old languages.  Or so I surmise.  Well, I guess I'll have to wait on revealed knowledge to find out.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Anijen said:

All (every single one) told me I was wrong and Brant was right the elephants I saw were in fact Macaws.

Wait... what?  Elephants are Macaws?  I'll admit to being a bit thick sometimes, but there is a size difference here that does not explain itself.  What on earth are you saying?

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Wow, cool!  I don't know why I have never thought of this, but I believe you make a good point with this.

On the other hand, I wonder if the Lord embellished the translation He gave to Joseph with words that were, strictly speaking, not in the engraved text?  I know that some languages require interpretation and not just translation, when going from the source to the target language.  This would be even more true with very old languages.  Or so I surmise.  Well, I guess I'll have to wait on revealed knowledge to find out.

Even if the text only approximated the BoM any relationship of significance would be remarkable.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, waveslider said:

As a working artist, who creates his own bronze and, in custom ordered cases, brass, from recycled copper, zinc, tin and lead, using his own personal foundry. I am very familiar with what will happen to brass under normal circumstances. I agree with you that God may have done something to them and that is the reason why I had this clause in my post that you replied to, which I think you may have overlooked:

That said, I am quite certain the gold plates would retain whatever amount of shininess they were originally polished to, since gold doesn't oxidize.

What I was really excited by was the idea of tumbaga as what the plates were composed of.  In the book 1491 by Charles C. Mann.  He described the production of sheets of tumbaga (gold and copper alloy) by the Inca, that was intended to be wrapped around objects to give them the appearance of being solid gold.  Because of the copper, tumbaga is too reddish (especially in higher proportions of copper), so doesn't look as pretty (and the copper will corrode where it is exposed to the air), but if it is heated carefully the copper at the surface interacts with atmospheric oxygen forming a copper oxide, which can then be knocked off by hammering, leaving the non-reactive gold -- or else mild acids (like citric acid) can dissolve the copper from the surface, leaving a layer of pure gold.  

The article on Tumbaga in Wikipedia is an interesting short description of it.

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Even if the text only approximated the BoM any relationship of significance would be remarkable.

You're correct, of course.

[hangs head in shame at the silliness of his response]

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

You're correct, of course.

[hangs head in shame at the silliness of his response]

Few of us really think out hypotheticals fully when they first occur to us and only recognize nuances over time.