Gold Plates discovered in Hill Cumorah

[Bobbieaware]

28 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, there's need, and then there's desire.

I don't need to see them, either, but I wouldn't turn down the chance to do so!  

I guarantee you that if you were allowed to see the plates you would have no idea if they were real or if they were fake, and then you'd be right back where you started. I can also guarantee you if the Lord allowed the plates to be shown to the world most people would say they were either clever fakes or the work of the devil. Also, there would hardly be any new converts once the mainstream media got done "debunking" the authenticity of the plates.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[canard78]

Deleted... See below instead. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by canard78
Excessive snark

[canard78]

6 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I guarantee you that if you were allowed to see the plates you would have no idea if they were real or if they were fake, and then you'd be right back where you started. I can also guarantee you if the Lord allowed the plates to be shown to the world most people would say they were either clever fakes or the work of the devil. Also, there would hardly be any new converts once the mainstream media got done "debunking" the authenticity of the plates.

Conversations like these are fun to follow. 

- "We've found evidence of the plates!!!"

- "Huzzah!!"

- "It's a fraud...  "

- "I didn't need to see the plates. Faith is more important"

- "Exactly... Although... It would be nice to see them. Cos... reasons..."

- "Wouldn't make a difference anyway. Even if we had the actual plates no one would believe they were real. We don't need the plates."

It's like being able to watch your brains open and close to possibilities in live action. 

It checks out though, as a process. Brain scanning has shown that strong convictions (such as religious or political ones) leads to parts of the brain (like the Thalamus) becoming less active. 

Part of the role of the Thalamus is to keep checking for importance. It's constantly reviewing and scanning the latest information to check for threats, opportunities etc. 

The brain is hugely draining on the body's resources, so therefore is always looking for shortcuts. If there's something it no longer needs to check for, it won't. It takes a topic and just stops checking for new news. 

If it's any reassurance it's not a Mormon issue. An absolutist atheist gets to the same stage. Certainty is a blessing to resource hungry brain. 

So that's what we're seeing here in this thread. A brief moment of hope for the brain to be able to further cement its certainty and further increase efficiency which, once shown to be fraudulent is shrugged off by the same motive as the reason you wanted it to be true here too. 

And don't worry. I know full well that my desire for that same certainty, as far as I can get it, that my religious perspectives are right for me is also the reason why I'm commenting here and why I'm seeing the above patterns in conversation. In effect, I'm using your confirmation bias to confirm my bias. 

Isnt the brain awesome?!

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

 

It's like being able to watch your brains open and close to possibilities in live action. 

It checks out though, as a process. Brain scanning has shown that strong convictions (such as religious or political ones) leads to parts of the brain (like the Thalamus) becoming less active. 

Part of the role of the Thalamus is to keep checking for importance. It's constantly reviewing and scanning the latest information to check for threats, opportunities etc. 

The brain is hugely draining on the body's resources, so therefore is always looking for shortcuts. If there's something it no longer needs to check for, it won't. It takes a topic and just stops checking for new news. 

If it's any reassurance it's not a Mormon issue. An absolutist atheist gets to the same stage. Certainty is a blessing to resource hungry brain. 

So that's what we're seeing here in this thread. A brief moment of hope for the brain to be able to further cement its certainty and further increase efficiency which, once shown to be fraudulent is shrugged off by the same motive as the reason you wanted it to be true here too. 

And don't worry. I know full well that my desire for that same certainty, as far as I can get it, that my religious perspectives are right for me is also the reason why I'm commenting here and why I'm seeing the above patterns in conversation. In effect, I'm using your confirmation bias to confirm my bias. 

Isnt the brain awesome?!

It seems that some imply, if given the opportunity to see the real plates, some would say, "No, I'd rather have my faith." Which is utter nonsense, unless the idea of seeing the plates and then learning they were faked seems like a real possibility.

I've been there.

September 24, 1988. The feeling of euphoria lasted little more than a day and a half.

On the 24th, I screamed and jumped up and down with my fellow Canadians as Ben Johnson crossed the 100m finish line in world record time in the Seoul Olympics. The come down when it was announced that he had cheated, using performance enhancing drugs, was heart crushing. I stopped watching track and field sports for quite some time. 

 

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I guarantee you that if you were allowed to see the plates you would have no idea if they were real or if they were fake, and then you'd be right back where you started. I can also guarantee you if the Lord allowed the plates to be shown to the world most people would say they were either clever fakes or the work of the devil. Also, there would hardly be any new converts once the mainstream media got done "debunking" the authenticity of the plates.

Your guarantee is unconvincing, I am afraid, as I don't think you're quite able to make such a warrant (can you bind the Almighty? I don't think so)!  That being said, you could be right that they might be shown in such a way as to preserve me from utter certainty.  Yet, I am certain that if the Lord wanted me to be utterly certain, He could do it.  But even if He did, my testimony would still have to be taken on faith by those to whom I attested it.

Do you not think that, after the First Vision, Joseph Smith knew it had been real?  I don't think he went through the rest of his life wallowing in doubt about what he had seen.  The same would apply to the Brother of Jared.

 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

It seems that some imply, if given the opportunity to see the real plates, some would say, "No, I'd rather have my faith." Which is utter nonsense, unless the idea of seeing the plates and then learning they were faked seems like a real possibility.

I've been there.

September 24, 1988. The feeling of euphoria lasted little more than a day and a half.

On the 24th, I screamed and jumped up and down with my fellow Canadians as Ben Johnson crossed the 100m finish line in world record time in the Seoul Olympics. The come down when it was announced that he had cheated, using performance enhancing drugs, was heart crushing. I stopped watching track and field sports for quite some time. 

 

The real plates would not suddenly show up as a surprise find in someone's attic, or at the bottom of some hole in the ground, uncovered by some metal detecting hobbyist.  Thus there's little chance of a Ben Johnson experience with the real plates.  I don't expect to be given an opportunity to see them in this life; but I would love to have one!  I would expect the experience to be accompanied by a divine manifestation, and by an admonition to keep it to myself.

It occurs to me: For all you know, I have seen the plates and am constrained to keep this in confidence.  

[cinepro]

I, for one, am glad the Lord took the plates away.  After all, had they remained there would be rock-solid proof for the Book of Mormon and little, if any "faith" would be required to believe it.

Just look at what happened with The Book of Abraham.  For decades, the papyrus was missing and a great deal of faith was required to believe (and predictably, secular Egyptologists and garden variety skeptics refused to believe on faith.)  Then, after the papyrus was discovered and made public in the 1960s, everything changed and now that we have the original source it's hard to find a single Egyptologist who doesn't believe The Book of Abraham or Joseph Smith's abilities to translate ancient languages.  And there is hardly a skeptic left on the subject.

Truly, having the source  can be a game changer, and it is only through God's infinite wisdom and mercy (even tender mercies) that we don't have the golden plates here for inspection, lest our chapels and Temples be overflowing with faithless believers who are there only because of the evidence.

Edited September 1, 2016 by cinepro

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The real plates would not suddenly show up as a surprise find in someone's attic, or at the bottom of some hole in the ground, uncovered by some metal detecting hobbyist.  Thus there's little chance of a Ben Johnson experience with the real plates.  I don't expect to be given an opportunity to see them in this life; but I would love to have one!  I would expect the experience to be accompanied by a divine manifestation, and by an admonition to keep it to myself.

It occurs to me: For all you know, I have seen the plates and am constrained to keep this in confidence.  

For all I know, you have seen the plates.

I haven't seen the plates.

If given a chance to see the plates I would photograph them, copy by hand the symbols from several pages and immediately turn those photos and copies over to experts in languages from Egypt and the Levant, as well as experts in Lamanite languages from the Americas.

I wouldn't need to see the pages that haven't been translated. But if we already have the correct translation of some of the pages, wherein lies the harm in seeing those pages in real life? Is there a difference between seeing the actual pages and seeing their translation?

 

[theplains]

On 31/08/2016 at 9:47 AM, cdowis said:

Joseph Smith Jr. is said to have found similar golden plates on September 22, 1823, in a hill near his home in Manchester, New York. He claimed that an angel named Moroni had directed him to a buried stone box, containing a set of gold plates, covered with strange symbols.

According to Alma 37:3-5, the brass plates would retain their brightness. I suspect the same for the gold plates
because some church depictions that I have seen show them as shiny too.

Examples:

video - https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-1120-for-a-wise-purpose?lang=eng
video - https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2010-06-08-chapter-7-witnesses-see-the-gold-plates-1829-1830?lang=eng
image - https://www.lds.org/media-library/images/visual-aids-pioneers-restoration-1142719?lang=eng&category=
image - https://www.lds.org/media-library/images/angel-moroni-gives-plates-to-joseph-82829?lang=eng&category=

Thanks,
Jim

[JAHS]

On 8/31/2016 at 3:53 PM, Pa Pa said:

I do not need to see the plates, which Joaeph made clear the Angel Moroni took them back. All I need is to read the words of the BoM, and feel the Spirit that is present when I read them. I don't care if "golden plates" are ever found. It is sad that many hope they are found to bolster their failing faith. 

Joseph Smith did indeed give them back to the angel Moroni:

When, according to arrangements, the messenger called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day (JSH 60)

I would assume that in order for Moroni to be able to handle the plates and give and receive them to Joseph Smith he must have been a resurrected being. If he is a resurrected being and the plates are a real solid material they must be able to exist in  real way somewhere? Or could Moroni have taken them somewhere else or to a different place on the earth? There is the story of how Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery took the plates into a cave. Brigham Young supposedly said:

" Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and thee were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.
The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until The Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our God and his Christ"' (Journal of Discourses, 19:36-39)

If we can believe this story how does this cave exist in this world? If someone happened to be digging in the same spot as where the plates were first found or where this cave was, would they find them? If not why would they not find them? How can these places be there but not be there in the physical world? They must be real places where real physical objects can exist, yet can only be found or seen if it is God's will.

 

[cdowis]

Just my personal opinion, but I think it's clear that the opening of the mountain was a portal for a means to transport them elsewhere.

Edited September 6, 2016 by cdowis

[bcuzbcuz]

14 hours ago, cdowis said:

Just my personal opinion, but I think it's clear that the opening of the mountain was a portal for a means to transport them elsewhere.

A portal to transport them elsewhere? You´re pulling our collective legs here, right?

[thesometimesaint]

On 9/1/2016 at 0:31 PM, cinepro said:

I, for one, am glad the Lord took the plates away.  After all, had they remained there would be rock-solid proof for the Book of Mormon and little, if any "faith" would be required to believe it.

Just look at what happened with The Book of Abraham.  For decades, the papyrus was missing and a great deal of faith was required to believe (and predictably, secular Egyptologists and garden variety skeptics refused to believe on faith.)  Then, after the papyrus was discovered and made public in the 1960s, everything changed and now that we have the original source it's hard to find a single Egyptologist who doesn't believe The Book of Abraham or Joseph Smith's abilities to translate ancient languages.  And there is hardly a skeptic left on the subject.

Truly, having the source  can be a game changer, and it is only through God's infinite wisdom and mercy (even tender mercies) that we don't have the golden plates here for inspection, lest our chapels and Temples be overflowing with faithless believers who are there only because of the evidence.

Where are the portions of the BoA written in red?

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A portal to transport them elsewhere? You´re pulling our collective legs here, right?

The location is clearly a  large repository for records, of which the gold plates are only one book on the shelf.  It is large enough for the records, and for people to stand.  Basically it is inside the hill itself or somewhere else which is accessible through a portal  in the hill.  I'm pretty sure the first is not feasible.  It is also possible that it is beneath or below the hill, which would require Moroni to transport the totality of the records several thousands of miles through the Lamanites on multiple trips.

So, I have chosen the portal theory as the most likely, of the three very unlikely possibilities.  FWIW, I guess I was influenced by the fact that this room was lighted when they entered which gives a slight edge to the portal theory.

Edited September 6, 2016 by cdowis

[cinepro]

On 9/1/2016 at 8:26 AM, Stargazer said:

The real plates would not suddenly show up as a surprise find in someone's attic, or at the bottom of some hole in the ground, uncovered by some metal detecting hobbyist.  Thus there's little chance of a Ben Johnson experience with the real plates.  I don't expect to be given an opportunity to see them in this life; but I would love to have one!  I would expect the experience to be accompanied by a divine manifestation, and by an admonition to keep it to myself.

It occurs to me: For all you know, I have seen the plates and am constrained to keep this in confidence.  

Why would "the real plates" be more secret or sacred than the Book of Abraham Papyri, or the Dead Sea Scrolls?  Obviously they would have an earthly value from the gold, but people (and the Church) seem more than capable of owning and preserving valuable religious objects without the need of angelic intervention.

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Where are the portions of the BoA written in red?

Here and here and here and here?

Edited September 6, 2016 by cinepro

[Calm]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Why would "the real plates" be more secret or sacred than the Book of Abraham Papyri, or the Dead Sea Scrolls?  Obviously they would have an earthly value from the gold, but people (and the Church) seem more than capable of owning and preserving valuable religious objects without the need of angelic intervention.

Because the plates weren't copies by scribes as the others are?

[cinepro]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because the plates weren't copies by scribes as the others are?

Uh, yes they were.  With the exception of a few chapters, the gold plates were an abridgement of other records (apparently still available if given access to a portal located in the Hill Cumorah...?)

Edited September 6, 2016 by cinepro

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Why would "the real plates" be more secret or sacred than the Book of Abraham Papyri, or the Dead Sea Scrolls?  Obviously they would have an earthly value from the gold, but people (and the Church) seem more than capable of owning and preserving valuable religious objects without the need of angelic intervention.

Why didn't Christ appear to Caesar, Pilate, King Herod after the resurrection?

Of those three records you mentioned, which one was uniquely delivered by supernatural power, by an angel?

Why are the stone tablets of the 10 Commandments not available for scientific investigation?  Do you think they simply "got lost'?

Could the answer be found in the words of Christ, " Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. "

How would Joseph Smith, et al, have protected those GOLD plates during the Missouri persecution,etc,before the church was able to place them into protective custody.

Edited September 6, 2016 by cdowis

[waveslider]

On 9/5/2016 at 8:31 AM, theplains said:

According to Alma 37:3-5, the brass plates would retain their brightness. I suspect the same for the gold plates
because some church depictions that I have seen show them as shiny too.

I don't think that the brass plates would retain a physical brightness, unless they were polished, and untouched by even one fingerprint, or contaminated by water, minerals or oil, of any type, and were sealed away from any oxigen by having some kind of clear coating on them..... or by some kind of miracle that God set in place. They would patina, but they would remain physically intact, since the patina protects the brass beneath the layer of patina from further oxidation. The brightness referred to in Alma 37:3-5 is most likely referring to the brightness from light of Christ, not a physical attribute of the actual material the holy writ is written upon:

".....they will retain their brightness; yea, and also shall all the plates which do contain that which is holy writ."
Alma 37:5

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

Why didn't Christ appear to Caesar, Pilate, King Herod after the resurrection?

Of those three records you mentioned, which one was uniquely delivered by supernatural power, by an angel?

Why are the stone tablets of the 10 Commandments not available for scientific investigation?  Do you think they simply "got lost'?

Could the answer be found in the words of Christ, " Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. "

How would Joseph Smith, et al, have protected those GOLD plates during the Missouri persecution,etc,before the church was able to place them into protective custody.

I recognize that people have to come up with reasons for the plates to have disappeared, and your list of theories is certainly impressive. 

I was just pointing out that for the most part, God seems content to let the source materials for scriptures to remain.  Joseph Smith and the Church kept many valuable manuscripts and artifacts on hand through the Kirtland, Missouri, Nauvoo and trek periods; I have no doubt they could have easily carried the gold plates, Laban's sword, breastplate, liahona and other artifacts with them had God seen fit to allow them to remain.

Again, I can't see any spiritual difference between the source for the Book of Abraham and the source for the Book of Mormon.  And it could be argued that the papyri were more in need of divine protection since the translation wasn't completed, and they were much more fragile than metal plates.

[cdowis]

I guess we just see things very differently.  Especially when one is interrogating their Creator, on why He does things.  "I just don't see why the church could just have put the plates in a vault, etc etc"  I guess He just didn't realize that He could have done that.

Anyway, I would not be so bold and arrogant to do that but whatever floats your boat.

Edited September 7, 2016 by cdowis

[Ed Goble]

On 9/1/2016 at 1:39 AM, canard78 said:

Conversations like these are fun to follow. 

. . .

And don't worry. I know full well that my desire for that same certainty, as far as I can get it, that my religious perspectives are right for me is also the reason why I'm commenting here and why I'm seeing the above patterns in conversation. In effect, I'm using your confirmation bias to confirm my bias. 

Isnt the brain awesome?!

Wow.  Using someone else's confirmation bias to confirm your own bias.  That's a new one.

[Ed Goble]

21 hours ago, cdowis said:

The location is clearly a  large repository for records, of which the gold plates are only one book on the shelf.  It is large enough for the records, and for people to stand.  Basically it is inside the hill itself or somewhere else which is accessible through a portal  in the hill.  I'm pretty sure the first is not feasible.  It is also possible that it is beneath or below the hill, which would require Moroni to transport the totality of the records several thousands of miles through the Lamanites on multiple trips.

So, I have chosen the portal theory as the most likely, of the three very unlikely possibilities.  FWIW, I guess I was influenced by the fact that this room was lighted when they entered which gives a slight edge to the portal theory.

This is pretty amazing.  Am I reading this right?  Are you actually suggesting that there is a portal like a stargate/wormhole in the New York Hill to some other Hill Cumorah where the plates actually reside?  I think I'd rather put my faith in something like a spiritually "cloaked" room inside the hill near Palmyra rather than a stargate.  I mean, as Mormons, we are willing to have a lot of faith in a lot of things, but let's not get into science fiction now.

[Ed Goble]

19 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here and here and here and here?

Actually, these are all parts from the Book of the Dead Papyrus, identified with the Book of Joseph.  The portions that were identified with the Book of Abraham are those from the Sensen Papyrus and its two Facsimiles and the Hypocephalus.