Scott Lloyd Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society. So this one's for them. Quote “We should be genuinely concerned over the assertion that the single most distinguishing feature of modern life is the rise of secularism with its attendant dismissal of, cynicism toward or marked disenchantment with religion,” said Elder Holland. Elder Holland gave the keynote for BYU Campus Education Week going on right now.
Sky Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 As long as religion is not misapplied, then yes. It can do a lot of good. But a lot of bad things happen in the name of religion, too. And there are a lot of different religions out there. LDS ultimately believe that their's is the only correct one. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted August 18, 2016 Author Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Sky said: As long as religion is not misapplied, then yes. It can do a lot of good. But a lot of bad things happen in the name of religion, too. And there are a lot of different religions out there. LDS ultimately believe that their's is the only correct one. There is a lot of good accomplished by religions and not just by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Several Church presidents, beginning with Joseph Smith have given the same thought: In effect we say to the world, "Bring with you all that you have that is good and true, all that you might have gained from your religious faith or from other experiences, and let us see if we can add to it." We readily acknowledge that there is much good contained with and accomplished by other religious faiths. That's one of many things that I find appealing about Mormonism. I agree that there are a lot of bad things that happen in the name of religion as well. But bad stuff happens in the name of other things too. Lately I've been reading up on and watching YouTube videos about the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime in Germany. Recently, I spent three weeks in Europe and visited the site of the Dachau concentration camp. I haven't been able to get it out of my mind. But there was nothing religious about National Socialism in Germany. 2
Guest Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society. So this one's for them. Elder Holland gave the keynote for BYU Campus Education Week going on right now. It was a great talk, I stumbled on it. I really love Elder Holland, love his service, love his delivery and love that he is an Apostle...Christ and ours.
SteveO Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) People were outraged, absolutely outraged I say, when Elder Holland supposedly misused a quote from Will and Ariel Durant. He said: “There is no significant example in history,” they said, “of [any] society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion.” Here's what they actually said: There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion. [my emphasis] So that was all the rage in the aftermath of Elder Holland's remarks. They picked at some other stuff too saying he was devisive and misquoted some other people as well. I liked the talk, It needs to be said and it goes without saying that people are going to be offended if they are looking to be. Edited August 18, 2016 by SteveO
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: “We should be genuinely concerned over the assertion that the single most distinguishing feature of modern life is the rise of secularism with its attendant dismissal of, cynicism toward or marked disenchantment with religion,” said Elder Holland. Where is the evidence that religion is necessary for a peaceful society? Top Ten Least Corrupt Countries Denmark Finland Sweden New Zealand Norway Netherlands Switzerland Singapore Canada Germany Source: Corruption Perceptions Index 2015 Top Ten Most Peaceful Countries Iceland Denmark Austria New Zealand Portugal Czech Republic Switzerland Canada Japan Slovenia Source: Global Peace Index rankings Top Ten Happiest Countries Denmark Switzerland Iceland Norway Findland Netherlands New Zealand Austria Sweden Source: World Happiness Report Poverty https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html Edited August 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Flexible Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 . Not a coincidence that many of the countries on SkepticChristian's lists are also on this one. Is wealth more important than religion in creating a stable, moral; society? List of Top 10 Richest Countries in The World by GDP Per Capita Ranks Country Capital Currency US $ 1. Luxembourg Luxembourg Euro 115,809 2. Qatar Doha Riyal 98,144 3. Norway Oslo Norwegian krone 97,607 4. Switzerland Swiss franc Swiss franc (CHF) 83,073 5. Australia Canberra Australian dollar (AUD) 66,371 6. United Arab Emirates Abu Dhabi UAE dirham (AED) 63,626 7. Denmark Copenhagen Danish krone 59,709 8. Sweden Stockholm Swedish krona (SEK) 57,638 9. Canada Ottawa Canadian dollar 50,496 10. Netherlands
JLHPROF Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Where is the evidence that religion is necessary for a peaceful society? Top Ten Least Corrupt Countries Denmark Finland Sweden New Zealand Norway Netherlands Switzerland Singapore Canada Germany Source: Corruption Perceptions Index 2015 Top Ten Most Peaceful Countries Iceland Denmark Austria New Zealand Portugal Czech Republic Switzerland Canada Japan Slovenia Source: Global Peace Index rankings Top Ten Happiest Countries Denmark Switzerland Iceland Norway Findland Netherlands New Zealand Austria Sweden Source: World Happiness Report Poverty https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html Moral would be more significant than peaceful.
thesometimesaint Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 Three things are the most successful at maintaining the evil in this world. Gold(I don't want to die poor), Glory(I don't want to die), and the Gospel(I want the other person to die).
Scott Lloyd Posted August 18, 2016 Author Posted August 18, 2016 2 hours ago, SteveO said: People were outraged, absolutely outraged I say, when Elder Holland supposedly misused a quote from Will and Ariel Durant. He said: “There is no significant example in history,” they said, “of [any] society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion.” Here's what they actually said: There is no significant example in history, before our time, of a society successfully maintaining moral life without the aid of religion. [my emphasis] So that was all the rage in the aftermath of Elder Holland's remarks. They picked at some other stuff too saying he was devisive and misquoted some other people as well. I liked the talk, It needs to be said and it goes without saying that people are going to be offended if they are looking to be. Sheesh!
thesometimesaint Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 The rise of secularism allowed this country to exist in the first place. We are not beholden to any God, King, religion, or religious leader for our laws. Common Sense SEE http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/singlehtml.htm
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: religion religion gives us good music, and I am a Mormon. Here is a video that will make you cry Edited August 18, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
rockpond Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society. So this one's for them. Elder Holland gave the keynote for BYU Campus Education Week going on right now. I haven't seen the full transcript but based on the DN article you linked to, Elder Holland's remarks do not seem to be about religious freedom. I agree with him regarding a concern over cynicism and dismissal of religion. That makes me sad because I see so much good in it. I also think it's important to acknowledge that there a extremely charitable and moral people who are not a part of any organized religion. Some of the very best people I know, people who are the most charitable, the first to jump in and help a neighbor in time of crisis, are people who are not religious. Hopefully Elder Holland made reference to that during his address. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted August 18, 2016 Author Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I haven't seen the full transcript but based on the DN article you linked to, Elder Holland's remarks do not seem to be about religious freedom. I agree with him regarding a concern over cynicism and dismissal of religion. That makes me sad because I see so much good in it. I also think it's important to acknowledge that there a extremely charitable and moral people who are not a part of any organized religion. Some of the very best people I know, people who are the most charitable, the first to jump in and help a neighbor in time of crisis, are people who are not religious. Hopefully Elder Holland made reference to that during his address. I didn't say it was about religious freedom.
Five Solas Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 The thread title calls to mind notable atheist Richard Dawkins and his statement a few years back, "Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse." It's an interesting thought & has certainly generated its share of social media buzz. But religion in an inclusive, generic sense? You beggar belief! ;0) --Erik 1
rockpond Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I didn't say it was about religious freedom. My mistake. I misinterpreted from the first line of your OP: "I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society."
Gray Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 I wonder how Elder Holland would define "moral"? Is morality something that exists outside of religious paradigms? Is it independent of religion? If not, then I can't make much sense of his statement. 1
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 33 minutes ago, Gray said: I wonder how Elder Holland would define "moral"? Is morality something that exists outside of religious paradigms? Is it independent of religion? If not, then I can't make much sense of his statement. I think that the real danger is the emergence of religions which mimic the functions of religious belief without mentioning God Ecotheology is one of these. It includes it's own ethics based on ecology, and includes religious music based on that of indigenous peoples. http://www.jesusjazzbuddhism.org/nordic-ecotheology-you-sing-the-elements.html Mindfulness meditation is another substitute for the holy spirit for many, though of course there are also religious forms of meditation as well. http://www.mindful.org Others envision religions based on human solidarity etc We need to point these folks to the gospel
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 Instead of bemoaning secularism, we need to go out there and convert these folks to the greatest human potential movement the world has ever known: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But first we need to understand the gospel that way ourselves Hunkering down and avoiding secularism is the last thing we should be doing. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't improve anything. 2
rockpond Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Instead of bemoaning secularism, we need to go out there and convert these folks to the greatest human potential movement the world has ever known: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But first we need to understand the gospel that way ourselves Hunkering down and avoiding secularism is the last thing we should be doing. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't improve anything. Well said. Amen. And I think that Elder Holland would agree with you. 1
hope_for_things Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society. So this one's for them. Elder Holland gave the keynote for BYU Campus Education Week going on right now. I tried commenting on this article on DNews, but they never approved my comment. Typical filtering of some points of view. Mine was respectfully disagreeing with some of the points Elder Holland makes. I agree that we can attribute some good impacts on society to religion, but an honest evaluation of religion should also acknowledge many bad elements over the years. To set religion up as the source of all the good, to disparage the secular and disparage the other whether thats atheism or secularism is unfair, and unproductive. Holland needs to do more bridge building, and less boundary maintenance. 1
hope_for_things Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I think that the real danger is the emergence of religions which mimic the functions of religious belief without mentioning God Ecotheology is one of these. It includes it's own ethics based on ecology, and includes religious music based on that of indigenous peoples. http://www.jesusjazzbuddhism.org/nordic-ecotheology-you-sing-the-elements.html Mindfulness meditation is another substitute for the holy spirit for many, though of course there are also religious forms of meditation as well. http://www.mindful.org Others envision religions based on human solidarity etc We need to point these folks to the gospel Can you elaborate on why you consider these movements to be a danger?
halconero Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 Mindfulness meditation is something I practice since getting stabbed in a mugging a year and a half ago. While I'm sure there are those out there who take it to a religious level, in my anecdotal experience it is mostly way to calm nerves, anxieties, and center oneself in the moment. You do bring up some good points with regards to functional religion, wherein what defines religion is associations, groups, ceremonies, and ritualistic practice bound up in ethical boundaries and worldviews (a worldview basically meaning the definition of the world's purpose and our place in it). Nationalism can function as a religion with associated holy days, national saints, a founding myth, texts treated with religious veneration, etc. Animal rights groups and other environmentalists have been defined by SCOTUS as religious associations due to the boundaries they set and the ritualistic way that protests are conducted at times. I don't think functional religion is new exactly, though new groups emerging from it come all the time. 2
stemelbow Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know there are those here who do love it so when I post material about religious freedom or the integral part religion plays in society. So this one's for them. Elder Holland gave the keynote for BYU Campus Education Week going on right now. If we had to described what distinguished us from previous eras, what would it be other than the rise of secularlism? Quote “We should be genuinely concerned over the assertion that the single most distinguishing feature of modern life is the rise of secularism with its attendant dismissal of, cynicism toward or marked disenchantment with religion,” said Elder Holland. Why must we see the rise of secularism as including "its attendant dismissal of, cycnicism toward or marked disenchantment with religion"? If religion didn't feel so threatened by secularism, we might not see the war and the need for religionists to further the divisiveness. It's a shame when religion sees secularism as a threat. religion will continue to lose ground if we continue to push for such distinction, I think.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 18, 2016 Author Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I tried commenting on this article on DNews, but they never approved my comment. Typical filtering of some points of view. Mine was respectfully disagreeing with some of the points Elder Holland makes. I agree that we can attribute some good impacts on society to religion, but an honest evaluation of religion should also acknowledge many bad elements over the years. To set religion up as the source of all the good, to disparage the secular and disparage the other whether thats atheism or secularism is unfair, and unproductive. Holland needs to do more bridge building, and less boundary maintenance. Are you certain they "filtered" your point of view, or is that just your assumption. My observation of the Deseret News comment sections is that they are fairly open on what is allowed in terms of responsible expression of opinion. That said, the comments are indeed moderated, and one of the things they will filter out is gratuitously poking the Church of Jesus Christ or its leadership in the eye.
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