Gospel topics essays

[rockpond]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You're proud to be an "average born/raised LDS, college-educated, middle-aged church member."  That reminds me of a president of the USA who was proud that he got a C average at Yale.

Really, rockpond?!  You were clearly never taught any sort of scholarship, whether because the department you studied in had poorly trained professors, or because the subject matter you learned had nothing to do with actual history, theology, or the like.  Scholars quote rather than putting words into the mouths of others, and thus making them say something other than what they have actually said.  Had you been well-trained, you would never do such inappropriate things.

The dates of attendance of both you and your parents, along with the subjects majored in, would tell me the status of BYU at that time, and I would be better able to examine your obviously false claims.  I also have a degree from BYU.  How odd that I received good training and that you and your loved ones did not.  Or did you expect to be spoon-fed everything without ever making an effort to search out the truth for yourself?  You clearly live in a static, synchronic world, while I live in a diachronic one.  In other words, you expect that everything is always the same, regardless of time and circumstance, never showing any curiosity nor making any personal effort to inform yourself.  How humdrum and meaningless.  But I guess that goes along with finding fault with not having the essays, as well as finding fault for having the essays -- damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

You can continue to attack me and my parents as if we were/are the problem.  But the fact is that Elder Ballard and Elder Snow are admitting that the church avoided teaching certain parts of our narrative. It's church leadership who is now out there saying that we need to provide information that we, as a church, didn't bother to share previously.

We've even got one of the preeminent LDS restoration scholars, Bushman, publicly stating that the current narrative taught by the church is not true.  

But please, keep trying to insult the education and experience of me and my parents. 

[Jeanne]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You're proud to be an "average born/raised LDS, college-educated, middle-aged church member."  That reminds me of a president of the USA who was proud that he got a C average at Yale.

Really, rockpond?!  You were clearly never taught any sort of scholarship, whether because the department you studied in had poorly trained professors, or because the subject matter you learned had nothing to do with actual history, theology, or the like.  Scholars quote rather than putting words into the mouths of others, and thus making them say something other than what they have actually said.  Had you been well-trained, you would never do such inappropriate things.

The dates of attendance of both you and your parents, along with the subjects majored in, would tell me the status of BYU at that time, and I would be better able to examine your obviously false claims.  I also have a degree from BYU.  How odd that I received good training and that you and your loved ones did not.  Or did you expect to be spoon-fed everything without ever making an effort to search out the truth for yourself?  You clearly live in a static, synchronic world, while I live in a diachronic one.  In other words, you expect that everything is always the same, regardless of time and circumstance, never showing any curiosity nor making any personal effort to inform yourself.  How humdrum and meaningless.  But I guess that goes along with finding fault with not having the essays, as well as finding fault for having the essays -- damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

This whole post is just so wrong.  I am biting my tongue here. 

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I am reading the Arrington biography right now and last evening came upon a shocking quote from Arrington's diary.

I marked it and planned to bring it to work today and post it and then forgot the book!

I will give you the gist, however.

Arrington, as you know, was famous for telling more of the truth about Church history than many GA's were happy to have told and ended up getting shut down as a result.

What Arrington wrote in his diary in 1981 (one year before the complete shut down of his history department and transfer away from the archives in SLC to BYU) was this:

He first said the part I already knew.  He likened the negative aspects of Church history to cats that were out of the bag; and said that some GA's were upset because they thought Arrington was letting cats out of the bag; but that what the GA's didn't understand was that the cats were already out of the bag through anti-Mormon publishers and that it was important to put those cats in context in order to help take the impact out of them for members.

That much I got.

It was the second part of the quote that floored me.

Arrington said that not only did he consider it his purpose to contextualize the "cats" that had been let out of the bag already, but he also said it was his purpose to "keep the lid on" damaging information that hadn't gotten out yet; information that could be found only through an in-depth research of the archives; information that would be "very damaging" to the Church and all its officials.

 

Nope.

Not making this up.

That's why it floored me.

Please..don't leave me hangin' does anyone know what he may have been talking about? 

[Jeanne]

12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You can continue to attack me and my parents as if we were/are the problem.  But the fact is that Elder Ballard and Elder Snow are admitting that the church avoided teaching certain parts of our narrative. It's church leadership who is now out there saying that we need to provide information that we, as a church, didn't bother to share previously.

We've even got one of the preeminent LDS restoration scholars, Bushman, publicly stating that the current narrative taught by the church is not true.  

But please, keep trying to insult the education and experience of me and my parents. 

You are the better man Rockpond. For all the scholarship I see in a lot of people here, their ignorance shows in their judgement and intolerence.  Besides..all of this is the anti's fault!

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

You can continue to attack me and my parents as if we were/are the problem.  But the fact is that Elder Ballard and Elder Snow are admitting that the church avoided teaching certain parts of our narrative. It's church leadership who is now out there saying that we need to provide information that we, as a church, didn't bother to share previously.

We've even got one of the preeminent LDS restoration scholars, Bushman, publicly stating that the current narrative taught by the church is not true.  

But please, keep trying to insult the education and experience of me and my parents. 

I find that particular line of attack annoying, to say the least. The idea seems to be that we should have known that we weren't getting the whole truth from our church lessons, manuals, magazines, and leaders, and therefore, our not knowing what we weren't getting is our fault for having been, in the infamous words of one apologist, "lazy and intransigent" in our study of the gospel. I have a curious mind, and I've long had a bit of an obsession with history, so I read a lot of things and knew a lot of the information many years before my "crisis of faith," so I don't really respond to that attack--it just doesn't apply to me. But I find it highly disingenuous to mock and sneer at those who thought the church was being straightforward and open with us when clearly it wasn't the case. Frankly, such sneering is arrogant and shameful.

[rockpond]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I find that particular line of attack annoying, to say the least. The idea seems to be that we should have known that we weren't getting the whole truth from our church lessons, manuals, magazines, and leaders, and therefore, our not knowing what we weren't getting is our fault for having been, in the infamous words of one apologist, "lazy and intransigent" in our study of the gospel. I have a curious mind, and I've long had a bit of an obsession with history, so I read a lot of things and knew a lot of the information many years before my "crisis of faith," so I don't really respond to that attack--it just doesn't apply to me. But I find it highly disingenuous to mock and sneer at those who thought the church was being straightforward and open with us when clearly it wasn't the case. Frankly, such sneering is arrogant and shameful.

 

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

For all the scholarship I see in a lot of people here, their ignorance shows in their judgement and intolerence.

I agree and appreciate the support.

I also appreciate these recent addresses from Elder Ballard and Elder Snow.  They are an acknowledgement from the highest levels of the church that we, as a church, haven't done all we should have to properly inform and educate membership.

[James Tunney]

32 minutes ago, rockpond said:

 

I agree and appreciate the support.

I also appreciate these recent addresses from Elder Ballard and Elder Snow.  They are an acknowledgement from the highest levels of the church that we, as a church, haven't done all we should have to properly inform and educate membership.

The essays are a nice start but they still don't give the whole picture.  Also, I would change your last statement to read "They are an acknowledgement from the highest levels of the church that the church hasn't done all that it should to properly inform and educate the membership."

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

The last 30 seconds of the audio clip in the OP. 

 

So I listened to the clip.

He said there wouldn't be "a well publicized campaign" or "a big campaign" telling people to go to the sites. He didn't say there would be no effort to roll the information out to curricula for adults, as you first alleged and later rescinded, or that there would be no effort to disseminate the information widely, as you later claimed. Lack of an overt, "well publicized campaign" is different than a deliberate intent not to disseminate the information.

He also commented that probably 90 percent of Church members don't care about the information in the essays. I think that's likely true. He said they are a safe place to land for those who do have concerns. That's true also.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

You can continue to attack me and my parents as if we were/are the problem.  But the fact is that Elder Ballard and Elder Snow are admitting that the church avoided teaching certain parts of our narrative. It's church leadership who is now out there saying that we need to provide information that we, as a church, didn't bother to share previously.

We've even got one of the preeminent LDS restoration scholars, Bushman, publicly stating that the current narrative taught by the church is not true.  

But please, keep trying to insult the education and experience of me and my parents. 

Did Bushman say "the current narrative taught by the Church is not true"? Where did he say that?

 

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

We've even got one of the preeminent LDS restoration scholars, Bushman, publicly stating that the current narrative taught by the church is not true.  

The current narrative the Church teaches and has taught has been basically true.  It just may not have been complete or comprehensive.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The current narrative the Church teaches and has taught has been basically true.  It just may not have been complete or comprehensive.

Narratives -- of any sort -- rarely are. The best ones convey truth despite not being comprehensive. The worst ones -- like those purveyed by anti-Mormons -- convey falsehood even as they lack comprehensiveness.

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Narratives -- of any sort -- rarely are. The best ones convey truth despite not being comprehensive. The worst ones -- like those purveyed by anti-Mormons -- convey falsehood even as they lack comprehensiveness.

IMO, the worst are those that pretend to be comprehensive but convey falsehood. And anti-Mormons are not alone in that. 

[JulieM]

29 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The current narrative the Church teaches and has taught has been basically true.  It just may not have been complete or comprehensive.

Heard of the term "omission"?

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, James Tunney said:

The essays are a nice start but they still don't give the whole picture.  Also, I would change your last statement to read "They are an acknowledgement from the highest levels of the church that the church hasn't done all that it should to properly inform and educate the membership."

Agreed

[rockpond]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So I listened to the clip.

He said there wouldn't be "a well publicized campaign" or "a big campaign" telling people to go to the sites. He didn't say there would be no effort to roll the information out to curricula for adults, as you first alleged and later rescinded, or that there would be no effort to disseminate the information widely, as you later claimed. Lack of an overt, "well publicized campaign" is different than a deliberate intent not to disseminate the information.

He also commented that probably 90 percent of Church members don't care about the information in the essays. I think that's likely true. He said they are a safe place to land for those who do have concerns. That's true also.

 

I'd suggest that, if that 90% number is true, it's likely that they don't care because they don't know the information exists.  That was the case with me. 

I didn't say there was a deliberate attempt to not disseminate the information.  They published it on LDS.org.  That's an effort to disseminate.  But, as you noted, they aren't making a "well publicized campaign".  Basically, they only want those who are wondering or seeking it out to find it.  Agreed?

Except for the youth.   They want to inoculate them.   What are your thoughts on the logic behind that dichotomy?  Use the info to inoculate the youth but don't work hard to put publicize it to the majority of the church?

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did Bushman say "the current narrative taught by the Church is not true"? Where did he say that?

 

Yes.  A recent meeting with members.  Its been discussed on these boards extensively.  

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I'd suggest that, if that 90% number is true, it's likely that they don't care because they don't know the information exists.  That was the case with me. 

I didn't say there was a deliberate attempt to not disseminate the information.  They published it on LDS.org.  That's an effort to disseminate.  But, as you noted, they aren't making a "well publicized campaign".  Basically, they only want those who are wondering or seeking it out to find it.  Agreed?

Except for the youth.   They want to inoculate them.   What are your thoughts on the logic behind that dichotomy?  Use the info to inoculate the youth but don't work hard to put publicize it to the majority of the church?

I've told the story before, but I remember the moment in time when I was on the internet, can't remember what word I put in, but the website http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/ came up. I had never really known about his having wives. Just that he was commanded to live polygamy in the Work and the Glory series and vaguely remember that even.

I just remember feeling like everything froze, and I was reading something I'd never heard or read. I walked outside after viewing several wives and their ages, and saw my neighbor across the road. I walked over to talk with her and asked about what I'd just seen. She said, "Oh, that's just anti stuff". And told me her non-LDS mother was anti, and told her a bunch of lies like that one, and for me not to believe it. I nearly left it at that until again some stuff come up, this time it was the StayLDS site, and from there I saw MormonStories, and well, the rest is history.

ETA: Several years later, I spoke with my sister in law about not being able to attend her son's wedding at the temple because I was struggling with my testimony after reading about JS. I had kept it a secret all those years, and she said she only knew about Helen Mar Kimball and that it was a sealing only.

Well, I wasn't about to tell her about the rest of the wives. Figured she would know more than that. Her husband was a CES teacher for years at a high school and later at Utah State's LDS Institute of Religion. They've served as mission presidents, and later two missions. She and her husband are currently serving a mission at the London Temple. 

If she didn't know, how do people expect me and others to?

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Tacenda

[carbon dioxide]

52 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Heard of the term "omission"?

Yes I have.  One can give a 5000 word essay on a topic or a 500 word essay.  For most people, perhaps the 500 word essay is probably enough.  I do think the Church should have been giving out more but for some people, there will never be enough. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes I have.  One can give a 5000 word essay on a topic or a 500 word essay.  For most people, perhaps the 500 word essay is probably enough.  I do think the Church should have been giving out more but for some people, there will never be enough. 

innoculation???  Should have started with primary pictures of the translation. 

 

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

 

pr

[jkwilliams]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've told the story before, but I remember the moment in time when I was on the internet, can't remember what word I put in, but the website http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/ came up. I had never really known about his having wives. Just that he was commanded to live polygamy in the Work and the Glory series and vaguely remember that even.

I just remember feeling like everything froze, and I was reading something I'd never heard or read. I walked outside after viewing several wives and their ages, and saw my neighbor across the road. I walked over to talk with her and asked about what I'd just seen. She said, "Oh, that's just anti stuff". And told me her non-LDS mother was anti, and told her a bunch of lies like that one, and for me not to believe it. I nearly left it at that until again some stuff come up, this time it was the StayLDS site, and from there I saw MormonStories, and well, the rest is history.

ETA: Several years later, I spoke with my sister in law about not being able to attend her son's wedding at the temple because I was struggling with my testimony after reading about JS. I had kept it a secret all those years, and she said she only knew about Helen Mar Kimball and that it was a sealing only.

Well, I wasn't about to tell her about the rest of the wives. Figured she would know more than that. Her husband was a CES teacher for years at a high school and later at Utah State's LDS Institute of Religion. They've served as mission presidents, and later two missions. She and her husband are currently serving a mission at the London Temple. 

If she didn't know, how do people expect me and others to?

 

You must have been one of those lazy, intransigent members.

One of my mission friends races motorcycles, and he talks about the "oh, sh**" moment when you hit a piece of gravel and you know you are going to have a bad crash, and there is nothing you can do about it. He describes figuring out the church as that kind of moment. Sounds like what you are describing.

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You must have been one of those lazy, intransigent members.

 

Yeah.  Who expected to be spoon fed 

 

[JulieM]

11 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes I have.  One can give a 5000 word essay on a topic or a 500 word essay.  For most people, perhaps the 500 word essay is probably enough.  I do think the Church should have been giving out more but for some people, there will never be enough. 

Wrong.  The truth would be enough.

The church leaders are at least trying how with the essays.  

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Yeah.  Who expected to be spoon fed 

Either that, or she just wants to do her own thing. I don't know about you, but I got extremely tired of people telling me why I left. In the end, very few care at all why I left. It just took me a while to realize I didn't need anyone's approval to do the right thing. 

[carbon dioxide]

7 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Wrong.  The truth would be enough.

The church leaders are at least trying how with the essays.  

I agree. The truth is enough.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, carbon dioxide said:

I agree. The truth is enough.

For some people it's too much.