Ken Ham's Ark

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Please share. What exactly was "awe inspiring"?

Would a person who does not believe Ken Ham's interpretation of Noah's flood be awed?

Did you see evidence of animals "two by two"? (Genesis 6:17-19)

or  "Of every clean beast...by sevens"(KJB)? (Genesis 7:2)

or " seven pairs of every clean animal" (New International Version)? (Genesis 7:2)

Did Ken Ham include dinosaurs in the animals on board the ark?

And Unicorns, Satyrs, Cockatrices, and Sea Monsters.

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Please share. What exactly was "awe inspiring"?

Would a person who does not believe Ken Ham's interpretation of Noah's flood be awed?

Did you see evidence of animals "two by two"? (Genesis 6:17-19)

or  "Of every clean beast...by sevens"(KJB)? (Genesis 7:2)

or " seven pairs of every clean animal" (New International Version)? (Genesis 7:2)

Did Ken Ham include dinosaurs in the animals on board the ark?

The carpentry, I haven't been to see it but I'm always inspired when I see a wood boat built.

[bcuzbcuz]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

The carpentry, I haven't been to see it but I'm always inspired when I see a wood boat built.

The frame work of Ken Ham's ark was put together by some 12 Amish carpenters. According to the head architect of Ken Ham's ark, in reference to the actual structure says, "The Ark wall, according to the experts, was solid wood, pinned together and covered with pine tar," said LeRoy Troyer, the project's lead architect. "They think it was three to four feet thick." He picked up a heavy model of overlapping planks."

But when it comes to saving bucks and time, Ken Ham resorted to 1 inch planks. "It will be suspended on 102 concrete piers, creating a 12-and-a-half-foot space between the ground and the ship's bottom. When complete, it will use the equivalent of 626 miles of wood, in planks one inch thick and 12 inches wide. Within the ship are 95 tons of steel plates and connectors." http://www.curbed.com/2015/7/8/9943156/answers-in-genesis-ark-encounter

"On a recent afternoon, the Australian-born Mr. Ham looked out on the workers in hard hats affixing pine planking to cover the Tyvek plastic wrap still visible on the stern."

Then, when the project was nearing its opening date, "The workers, standing on hydraulic lifts, have covered over the Tyvek, and just in time. The Tyvek was printed all over with the slogan of its maker, Dupont: “The Miracles of Science.”

Why mention any of this? No matter what kind of frame a wooden boat has, and especially not for a boat framed longer than two football fields, one inch pine planking would twist and crack and pop out of allignment within days of being set to water. (Furthermore, although the frame was put together by Amish carpenters and supposedly built without metal supports or nails, the pine planks were nailed in place with common nails.....which Noah did not have access to)

So carpentry.....well, I suggest you not look too carefully to the actual construction and only look where Ken Ham's guides suggest you look.

[danielwoods]

7 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Please share. What exactly was "awe inspiring"?

Would a person who does not believe Ken Ham's interpretation of Noah's flood be awed?

Did you see evidence of animals "two by two"? (Genesis 6:17-19)

or  "Of every clean beast...by sevens"(KJB)? (Genesis 7:2)

or " seven pairs of every clean animal" (New International Version)? (Genesis 7:2)

Did Ken Ham include dinosaurs in the animals on board the ark?

What exactly was awe inspiring to me?

It was inspiring to walk into a reconstruction of Noah's efforts and imagine what is was like. From dealing with all the logistical problems to dealing with scoffers. In essence it was a floating self-contained barn. 

Would a non-believer be awed?

certainly not in the same way. It's a huge structure but I don't think it would be as interesting to them. Throughout the Ark are displays of various animals and explainations of how the flood geology differs from the evolutionary geological views of the same evidence and other bits of evidence that secular scientists never talk about. Would this interest a non-believer? I don't know. Some maybe. 

 

Yes there were displays of pairs of animals of all types. And yes there was a discussion of the number of clean animals needed. And yes there were dinosaurs on display in cages. Certainly not full grown ones though. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by danielwoods

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, danielwoods said:

What exactly was awe inspiring to me?

It was inspiring to walk into a reconstruction of Noah's efforts and imagine what is was like. From dealing with all the logistical problems to dealing with scoffers. In essence it was a floating self-contained barn. 

 

According to the specs offered in bcuz's post, it doesn't sound like much of a reconstruction beyond size.

[Calm]

Somehow posted before done...

According to the specs offered in bcuz's post, it doesn't sound like much of a reconstruction beyond size.

If anything, he has given us more evidence that it couldn't have been done, not less.  Unless you believe that Noah used steel?  Or that the animals were somehow in suspended animation instead of needing to be cared for?

[bcuzbcuz]

34 minutes ago, danielwoods said:

What exactly was awe inspiring to me?

It was inspiring to walk into a reconstruction of Noah's efforts and imagine what is was like. From dealing with all the logistical problems to dealing with scoffers. In essence it was a floating self-contained barn. 

Would a non-believer be awed?

certainly not in the same way. It's a huge structure but I don't think it would be as interesting to them. Throughout the Ark are displays of various animals and explainations of how the flood geology differs from the evolutionary geological views of the same evidence and other bits of evidence that secular scientists never talk about. Would this interest a non-believer? I don't know. Some maybe. 

 

Yes there were displays of pairs of animals of all types. And yes there was a discussion of the number of clean animals needed. And yes there were dinosaurs on display in cages. Certainly not full grown ones though. 

But most of all, and here, you must agree, Ken Ham's project requires a complete suspension of belief. He's managed to put together a framework that fulfills the external measurements of the Biblical story, but he hasn't succeeded in producing a seaworthy vessel. He has used planks that cover the surface but as soon as dipped into water, would spring leaks enough to sink it. 

He has produced a Hollywood version of reality. Like a cowboy western town, it seems to be real until you look behind the facade. 

I'll spare you the rest of the revealing details. You have shown in the past that you tire after reading the first sentence.

And how many animals did you see in the cages? The reports in the New York Times and the BBC said they saw 40 pairs of animals (dinosaurs included). Give me a rough estimate of how many pairs of animals the ark should contain.

[Calm]

Were the cages steel or wood btw?  Just curious.

Never mind, googled it.  Looks like wood:

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

Where is all the poop?

I have never seen such a clean animal enclosure.

[Calm]

This is imo a good review from a believer with lots of pictures, also has quite a bit of detail on the money side of things.

https://thimblerigsark.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/my-review-of-ken-hams-ark-encounter-theme-park/

[Calm]

The park is open on Sunday.  I hope they at least give their workers the choice of whether to work that day or not.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Calm

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Somehow posted before done...

According to the specs offered in bcuz's post, it doesn't sound like much of a reconstruction beyond size.

If anything, he has given us more evidence that it couldn't have been done, not less.  Unless you believe that Noah used steel?  Or that the animals were somehow in suspended animation instead of needing to be cared for?

The various stories put together for the internet include suspended animation, and/or only babies of each "kind" being taken aboard, and/or that the "kinds" didn't need to be of every species but that one pair of birds, one pair of dogs, etc., etc., would be enough to then produce all the varieties we see today. 

Altogether, a certain amount of "magic" is required for each story. Certainly, modern DNA information doesn't fit any of these supposed "solutions". 

[danielwoods]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Somehow posted before done...

According to the specs offered in bcuz's post, it doesn't sound like much of a reconstruction beyond size.

If anything, he has given us more evidence that it couldn't have been done, not less.  Unless you believe that Noah used steel?  Or that the animals were somehow in suspended animation instead of needing to be cared for?

Ken Ham's goal wasn't to build an exact copy of the original Ark, rather to build a replica that emulates it in a few important ways (which makes it an interesting experience), but would actually serve as a functioning museum to spread the truth of God to people who wouldn't normally read his books. And yes there is evidence that Noah had access to metal and used it, not enough detail is given though to say exactly how. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

But most of all, and here, you must agree, Ken Ham's project requires a complete suspension of belief. He's managed to put together a framework that fulfills the external measurements of the Biblical story, but he hasn't succeeded in producing a seaworthy vessel. He has used planks that cover the surface but as soon as dipped into water, would spring leaks enough to sink it. 

He has produced a Hollywood version of reality. Like a cowboy western town, it seems to be real until you look behind the facade. 

I'll spare you the rest of the revealing details. You have shown in the past that you tire after reading the first sentence.

And how many animals did you see in the cages? The reports in the New York Times and the BBC said they saw 40 pairs of animals (dinosaurs included). Give me a rough estimate of how many pairs of animals the ark should contain.

The project doesn't require suspension of belief at all. It's goal wasn't to build an exact replica (that really floats). While that would have been an interesting project and might have (but then probably not) quieted the skeptics in regard to whether building such a vessel is even possible. Such an exact replica would be a huge amount of money with little to no return on investment. Which is a rather important consideration when one doesn't have unlimited funds. It would be nearly impossible for people to "tour" as it would have only one door and ladders in-between the decks. So, the criticism is just another straw man. 

I didn't count the number of animals I saw. So 40 might be correct, I don't know. However, it's important to understand he wasn't trying to reproduce and exact replica. According to different theories, the number could be as low as 7,000 animals or as high as 16,000.

https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/how-could-noah-fit-the-animals-on-the-ark-and-care-for-them/

[danielwoods]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Where is all the poop?

I have never seen such a clean animal enclosure.

The logistics of housing animals includes managing all the poop. In the photo of the pens one can see the slanted boards that would carry the waste down to a central location where it could be deposed of. How that all occurred is a guess though. This is Ken's guess at this point. 

 

[danielwoods]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

The park is open on Sunday.  I hope they at least give their workers the choice of whether to work that day or not.

Not sure that's really an issue, unless you're LDS. 

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, danielwoods said:

The project doesn't require suspension of belief at all. It's goal wasn't to build an exact replica (that really floats). While that would have been an interesting project and might have (but then probably not) quieted the skeptics in regard to whether building such a vessel is even possible. Such an exact replica would be a huge amount of money with little to no return on investment. Which is a rather important consideration when one doesn't have unlimited funds. It would be nearly impossible for people to "tour" as it would have only one door and ladders in-between the decks. So, the criticism is just another straw man. 

I didn't count the number of animals I saw. So 40 might be correct, I don't know. However, it's important to understand he wasn't trying to reproduce and exact replica. According to different theories, the number could be as low as 7,000 animals or as high as 16,000.

https://answersingenesis.org/noahs-ark/how-could-noah-fit-the-animals-on-the-ark-and-care-for-them/

I just got back from a houseboat trip. You can't fit that many animals in that kind of space....at all. 8 people couldn't feed that many animals and keep the enclosure clean enough even if they did put them on board. Unless it had aquariums a global flood would have wiped out almost all of the freshwater fish and plant life as well. The ark is just about the right size to support eight people and their prime breeding stock to rebuild their herds once the voyage was over. The Genesis account makes no mention of collecting insects, non-domesticated animals, freshwater wildlife, and the like.

Now you can say God worked miracles to make it happen. I can respect that explanation even if I do not agree with it but stop trying to make this cockamamie interpretation of the story make some kind of sense absent spectacular miracles.

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Where is all the poop?

I have never seen such a clean animal enclosure.

You obviously haven't seen Jeredite Barges!!!!

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 

So carpentry.....well, I suggest you not look too carefully to the actual construction and only look where Ken Ham's guides suggest you look.

Ok, I get it.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

You obviously haven't seen Jeredite Barges!!!!

Except that would be a manageable workload unless they packed in thousands of species which no one seems interested in arguing for.

[thesometimesaint]

SEE http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

[danielwoods]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I just got back from a houseboat trip. You can't fit that many animals in that kind of space....at all. 8 people couldn't feed that many animals and keep the enclosure clean enough even if they did put them on board. Unless it had aquariums a global flood would have wiped out almost all of the freshwater fish and plant life as well. The ark is just about the right size to support eight people and their prime breeding stock to rebuild their herds once the voyage was over. The Genesis account makes no mention of collecting insects, non-domesticated animals, freshwater wildlife, and the like.

Now you can say God worked miracles to make it happen. I can respect that explanation even if I do not agree with it but stop trying to make this cockamamie interpretation of the story make some kind of sense absent spectacular miracles.

Gen. 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

 

Hmmm... every kind of creature that moves along the ground. Sounds like it would include insects and non-domesticated animals to me, but believe what you will. 

As for salt water, the salinity of the water would decrease quite bit if more and more fresh water was added to the ocean. Assuming that the salinity stayed the same as it is today is probably an error. 

[thesometimesaint]

There are between 6,000,000 and 9,000,000 species on the earth. Noah and his little party could not have provided for that many species.

BTW Water has weight. For that much rain to fall the atmosphere would have to become super heated parboiling everything. including Noah and his merry band. Physics is grand isn't it?

Edited July 24, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[bcuzbcuz]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

This is imo a good review from a believer with lots of pictures, also has quite a bit of detail on the money side of things.

https://thimblerigsark.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/my-review-of-ken-hams-ark-encounter-theme-park/

An excellent article. I especially appreciated the viewpoint that people should be spending money in providing for the poor or trying to cure diseases or making access to pure and clean water a priority, rather than donating money to a made-for-profit venture. 

 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, danielwoods said:

Gen. 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

 

Hmmm... every kind of creature that moves along the ground. Sounds like it would include insects and non-domesticated animals to me, but believe what you will. 

As for salt water, the salinity of the water would decrease quite bit if more and more fresh water was added to the ocean. Assuming that the salinity stayed the same as it is today is probably an error. 

NO! NO! NO!!!

You cannot dilute the salinity enough to allow fresh water creatures to live and still keep the salt water creatures alive. There is no magic in-between where everything survives. This is the problem with those who try to pseudo scientifically explain the circumstances of the flood. They just go with whatever random reasoning they come up with in the last without thinking it through at all or knowing enough to know if it would work.

If you want to believe in a literal global flood then believe there are things we do not understand or that God worked large-scale miracles to make it work or that the laws of the Universe have shifted. Do not throw out pseudoscience like this. It can be dangerous to the faith of others.