The Nehor Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL so what is the point of this conversation? Why didn't you tell me that in the first place? I assumed most people try to figure out what they are talking about when they post here so they do not speak like an idiot about things they do not understand. i guess you are an exception and are okay with looking like an idiot and feel no need to do basic research. 7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I honestly don't care if Nibley was a Hebrew scholar or not! I am more interested in up-to-date scholarly work! I am still waiting for references, where are Nibley's contributions in the field of old testament theology? especially about Noah's flood? Just give me at least one Paper. So despite the fact that you have desperately tried to discredit Nibley you also do not care one way or the other. Oh, and you also demand references so you can know more about this person you do not care about one way or the other. You expect posters here to waste time proving something to you you claim you do not care about? I choose not to play until you make up your mind. Do you have some kind of multiple personality disorder? Or are you being irrational and self-contradictory again despite your long diatribes on how important rationality is?
thesometimesaint Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Some months ago I was searching for Old Testament scholars (with good credentials) that believed in a regional flood, for two hours I didn't find any! How about you name some? I am simply asking for an Old Testament scholar teaching at the world class university that believes Noah's flood was regional! That is no Ad hominem More ad Hominem.
Calm Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 Here is alist of his nonLDS published works. Some are related to Mormonism, but obviously thought relevant enough and of enough value to the academic community by nonLDS to publish: "The Roman Games as a Survival of an Archaic Year-Cult." Ph.D. diss., University of California, Berkeley, 1939.249p.; bibliography: 236-49. Nibley's dissertation was completed and approved by December 1938. The library at the University of California at Berkeley catalogued the dissertation in early 1939. "New Light on Scaliger." Classical Journal 37/5 (February 1942): 291-95. Sparsiones." Classical Journal 40/9 (June 1945): 515-43. "The Arrow, the Hunter, and the State." Western Political Quarterly 2/3 (1949): 328-44. Review of The Ancient World, by Joseph W. Swain. The Historian 13/1 (Spring 1951): 79-81. "The Hierocentric State." Western Political Quarterly 4/2 (1951): 226-53. Review of History of Syria: Including Lebanon and Palestine, by Philip K. Hitti. Western Political Quarterly 5/2 (June 1952): 312-13. Review of Near Eastern Culture and Society: A Symposium on the Meeting of East and West, edited by T. Cuyler Young. Western Political Quarterly 5/2 (June 1952): 315-16. "The Unsolved Loyalty Problem: Our Western Heritage." Western Political Quarterly 6/4 (1953): 631-57. "Do Religion and History Conflict?" In Great Issues Forum, Series 2: Religion, No. 5 (Salt Lake City: University of Utah, Extension Division, 1955), 22-39. Victoriosa Loquacitas: The Rise of Rhetoric and the Decline of Everything Else." Western Speech 20/2 (Spring 1956): 57-82. Review of The Torment of Secrecy: The Background and Consequences of American Security Policies, by Edward A. Shils. The American Political Science Review 50/3 (September 1956): 887-88. "Christian Envy of the Temple." Jewish Quarterly Review 50/2 (October 1959): 97-123; part II: JQR 50/3 (January 1960): 229-40. "The Passing of the Church," Church History 30/2 (June 1961): 131-54; reprinted in When the Lights Went Out (1970), 1-32 “Paul and Moroni." Letter to Christianity Today 5/5 (May 22, 1961): 727. A response to a letter by C. Sumter Logan of the Trinity Presbyterian Church in Ogden, Utah, that had appeared in Christianity Today 5/3 (March 27, 1961): 551 (commenting on Moroni 7 and Paul's praise of charity). What Is a Temple? The Idea of the Temple in History. Provo: BYU Extension Publications, 1963/1968. ii, 18p. (16p.). Reprinted from the MS 120/8 (August 1958): 228-37, 247-49. Also appeared as "Die Tempelidee in der Geschichte." Der Stern 85/2 (February 1959): 43-60. "Qumran and the Companions of the Cave." Revue Qumran 5/2 (1965): 177-98. "Evangelium Quadraginta Dierum." Vigiliae Christianae 20/1 (1966): 1-24. "Tenting, Toll, and Taxing." Western Political Quarterly 19/4 (December 1966): 599-630. “The Mormon View of the Book of Mormon." Concilium: An International Review of Theology 10 (December 1967): 82-83; also printed in the United States under the same title in Concilium: Theology in the Age of Renewal 30 (1968): 170-73, and in other foreign-language editions of this Catholic journal in French, pp. 151-53; Portuguese, pp. 144-47; German, pp. 855-56. "Science Fiction and the Gospel." 22p., s.s., typed transcript of a talk given on February 13, 1969. Published, with some changes, in LDSF 2: Latter-day Science Fiction, edited by Benjamin Urrutia (Ludlow, MA: Parables, 1985), 5-28. "Jerusalem: In Christianity." Encyclopedia Judaica, 16 vols. New York: Macmillan/Jerusalem: Keter, 1972. 9:1568-75. "The Book of Enoch as a Theodicy." 28p. typed manuscript of a paper read at the regional meeting of the Society for Biblical Literature in Denver, Colorado, in 1974. Foreword. Learn Greek through the New Testament, by C. Wilfred Griggs and Randall Stewart, edited by Alan F. Keele and Marvin H. Folsom. The Interlinguistica Series in Foreign Languages, 1981. "Acclamatio (Never Cry Mob)." In Toward a Humanistic Science of Politics: Essays in Honor of Francis Dunham Wormuth, edited by Dalmas H. Nelson and Richard L. Sklar. Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1983. 11-22. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Here is alist of his nonLDS published works. I am glad you did a much better job than Nehor. I don't doubt Nibley is a real scholar, of course NIbley was a Near East scholar. I am simply not sure he was a research Hebrew Scholar that specialized in Old Testament theology, none of the Papers (at least the titles) seem to suggest he was. Again, I know Nibley was a scholar, but he couldn't possibly be an expert in a lot of fields. Here are examples of what I am looking for Barr, James. "Theophany and anthropomorphism in the Old Testament." Congress Volume: Oxford. 1959. Knierim, Rolf. "The Vocation of Isaiah." Vetus Testamentum 18.1 (1968): 47-68. Web. Whitcomb, John C., and Henry M. Morris. "The genesis flood." DOCUMENT RESUME 60 (1961): 60. Cohn, Norman. "Noah's Flood." Theological Studies 59.2 (1998): 362. 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: So despite the fact that you have desperately tried to discredit Nibley you also do not care one way or the other. You don't give me any reasons to care! I am asking you for scholarly papers, but you refuse to present them! Tell me why should I not lose my interest? Quote No, knowing Spanish does not unless you are involved and well read in the field which Nibley might be. Nibley was also fluent in Egyptian, does that mean he was an Egyptologist? LOL Edited July 30, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
bcuzbcuz Posted July 30, 2016 Author Posted July 30, 2016 15 hours ago, danielwoods said: Some evidence that humans lived with dinosaurs: Evidence from Mexico 800 B.C. to 200 A.D: We didn't even know the tails of these dinosaurs stuck out straight like that until modern times. Yet, thousands of ancient clay figurines demonstrate that truth. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro.htmL Sorry, but you're going to need something more than simplistic clay figures as childish as they are incomplete. These figurines could have been produced yesterday as easily as 1000 years ago. They're like "antiques made while you wait". Nothing in these clay models proves that they are ancient. You need to prove that they were buried in soils dated a thousand or two thousand years old. Just someone, somewhere, saying they found these "dinos" someplace is not enough to show that they are old. Merely wanting them to be old does not make them so.
danielwoods Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 8 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: Sorry, but you're going to need something more than simplistic clay figures as childish as they are incomplete. These figurines could have been produced yesterday as easily as 1000 years ago. They're like "antiques made while you wait". Nothing in these clay models proves that they are ancient. You need to prove that they were buried in soils dated a thousand or two thousand years old. Just someone, somewhere, saying they found these "dinos" someplace is not enough to show that they are old. Merely wanting them to be old does not make them so. I don't expect that any amount of information about these artifacts to be persuasive to a committed believer.
thesometimesaint Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) Does the story, and artwork, of Icarus prove men could fly in ancient Greece? SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus Edited July 30, 2016 by thesometimesaint
bcuzbcuz Posted July 30, 2016 Author Posted July 30, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, danielwoods said: I don't expect that any amount of information about these artifacts to be persuasive to a committed believer. Ok, then provide some information and see if your premise is true. Just because someone says that they have a pair of Jesus' leather sandals does not make it so. I've seen a sliver of wood, with a certificate of genuine"ness" from the Vatican, that certified that the sliver of wood was a genuine piece of the cross that Jesus was crucified on. But that certificate does not mean that it actually was from the cross of Jesus. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I've been in the basement to the University of British Columbia's Museum of Anthroplogy and seen box upon box, shelf upon shelf, room upon room of artifacts from First Nations of British Columbia that are NOT on display, because no one ever recorded, at the time of purchase, or the time of acquisitition, who, where or when the artifact was produced. Without such information, the artifact, regardless of its inate beauty, is just a piece of anthropology junk, doomed to a box, on a shelf, in a room, where probably no one will ever see it. Identify 5 (not just 1) of these clay figures of "dinosaurs" and give the location found, who found it, what identified it as a clay figure of ancient origins and other identifying noteworthy points that show that it was found at some depth in the ground and not just lying on the surface of the earth. I don't expect you to have access to carbon-14 dating of the clays, but if you do that would be wonderful. Edited July 30, 2016 by bcuzbcuz
danielwoods Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 37 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: Ok, then provide some information and see if your premise is true. Just because someone says that they have a pair of Jesus' leather sandals does not make it so. I've seen a sliver of wood, with a certificate of genuine"ness" from the Vatican, that certified that the sliver of wood was a genuine piece of the cross that Jesus was crucified on. But that certificate does not mean that it actually was from the cross of Jesus. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I've been in the basement to the University of British Columbia's Museum of Anthroplogy and seen box upon box, shelf upon shelf, room upon room of artifacts from First Nations of British Columbia that are NOT on display, because no one ever recorded, at the time of purchase, or the time of acquisitition, who, where or when the artifact was produced. Without such information, the artifact, regardless of its inate beauty, is just a piece of anthropology junk, doomed to a box, on a shelf, in a room, where probably no one will ever see it. Identify 5 (not just 1) of these clay figures of "dinosaurs" and give the location found, who found it, what identified it as a clay figure of ancient origins and other identifying noteworthy points that show that it was found at some depth in the ground and not just lying on the surface of the earth. I don't expect you to have access to carbon-14 dating of the clays, but if you do that would be wonderful. Last time I looked into it I read that those who have attempted to study these artifacts at this depth haven't been able to because of the local authorities won't give the required permits, because they are embarrassed by them. The level of fear of reprisals limits what can and will be studied.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 30, 2016 Author Posted July 30, 2016 23 minutes ago, danielwoods said: Last time I looked into it I read that those who have attempted to study these artifacts at this depth haven't been able to because of the local authorities won't give the required permits, because they are embarrassed by them. The level of fear of reprisals limits what can and will be studied. Does that mean that these artifacts all come from the same area? Multiple artifacts with one finder? Or multiple artifacts from a whole series of discoverers? The artifacts are quite similar in style. Is it the opinion of experts that they were done by a small group of people or do they represent a stylistic form that survived through various cultural changes?
danielwoods Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said: Does that mean that these artifacts all come from the same area? Multiple artifacts with one finder? Or multiple artifacts from a whole series of discoverers? The artifacts are quite similar in style. Is it the opinion of experts that they were done by a small group of people or do they represent a stylistic form that survived through various cultural changes? If I recall correctly they come from one area in Mexico and a couple of researchers have tried to gather data. I think they identified where to dig to find more, but weren't allowed to dig. As far as "discoverers" the locals seemed to be familiar with artifacts and their history but don't talk about it because they don't want the negative attention. (Negative from "real" scientists). So, those who are discovering it now are usually European/American researchers.
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I am glad you did a much better job than Nehor. I don't doubt Nibley is a real scholar, of course NIbley was a Near East scholar. I am simply not sure he was a research Hebrew Scholar that specialized in Old Testament theology, none of the Papers (at least the titles) seem to suggest he was. Again, I know Nibley was a scholar, but he couldn't possibly be an expert in a lot of fields. Here are examples of what I am looking for Barr, James. "Theophany and anthropomorphism in the Old Testament." Congress Volume: Oxford. 1959. Knierim, Rolf. "The Vocation of Isaiah." Vetus Testamentum 18.1 (1968): 47-68. Web. Whitcomb, John C., and Henry M. Morris. "The genesis flood." DOCUMENT RESUME 60 (1961): 60. Cohn, Norman. "Noah's Flood." Theological Studies 59.2 (1998): 362. You don't give me any reasons to care! I am asking you for scholarly papers, but you refuse to present them! Tell me why should I not lose my interest? Nibley was also fluent in Egyptian, does that mean he was an Egyptologist? LOL
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I am still waiting, where are Nibley's Papers on Old Testament topics?
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I am still waiting, where are Nibley's Papers on Old Testament topics? In journals, most of them behind paywalls. Some are republished in his collected works series. If you mail me your credit card to buy subscriptions and books and cover my labor and various other research fees (I work best when vacationing abroad) I will put together a comprehensive report on the subject for your reading pleasure. If not, you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that learning about things is too hard and that actual research might hurt your delicate little brain and go back to collecting Pokemon. 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: In journals, most of them behind paywalls. Some are republished in his collected works series. If you mail me your credit card to buy subscriptions and books and cover my labor and various other research fees (I work best when vacationing abroad) I will put together a comprehensive report on the subject for your reading pleasure. If not, you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that learning about things is too hard and that actual research might hurt your delicate little brain and go back to collecting Pokemon. LOL it is not hard to cite at least one paper. What do you mean by "If you mail me your credit card to buy subscriptions and books and cover my labor and various other research fees"? Does that mean you didn't read crap? That is what I thought! No wonder you don't cite any academic Papers on the Old Testament. Get out of here! It is clear you don't know what you are talking about Edited July 31, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL it is not hard to cite at least one paper. What do you mean by "If you mail me your credit card to buy subscriptions and books and cover my labor and various other research fees"? Does that mean you didn't read crap? That is what I thought! No wonder why you don't cite any Papers about the Old Testament. Get out of here! It is clear you don't know what you are talking about Actually I have read 14 volumes of his work but no longer have them. I do not recommend them to you. They use big words. Nah, I will stick around. If I left threads just because a defeated dimwit told me to I would never have any fun here.
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Actually I have read 14 volumes of his work but no longer have them. I do not recommend them to you. They use big words. Good for you! Academic Papers on the Old Testament please Edited July 31, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Good for you! Research Papers on the Old Testament please buy the compilation books and read them yourself. For example the one called "Old Testament and Related Studies might be a good place to start. There are also some about Abraham and Enoch. Happy reading! Come back in a few years when you have read and understand them and we can go from there.
strappinglad Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 I also have read most of Nibley's volumes and have 13, I believe, in my collection. It is acknowledged that he actually was very much an expert in several areas of ancient literature. As all men, he had his flaws and biases, but most of the scholars who knew him rarely questioned his ability to read the ancient manuscripts. They may have argued about his conclusions but not his skills. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: buy the compilation books and read them yourself. For example the one called "Old Testament and Related Studies might be a good place to start. There are also some about Abraham and Enoch. Happy reading! Come back in a few years when you have read and understand them and we can go from there. This one? https://www.amazon.com/Testament-Related-Studies-collected-Nibley/dp/0875790321 That is a book published by Deseret Book! LOL LOL LOL I am not even sure if you are just trolling me! Do you know what academic papers and books are? I am still waiting for academic papers on the Old Testament, will be nicer if you cite one about the Flood. Edited July 31, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: This one? https://www.amazon.com/Testament-Related-Studies-collected-Nibley/dp/0875790321 That is a book published by Deseret Book! LOL LOL LOL I am not even sure if you are just trolling me! Do you know what academic papers and books are? I am still waiting for academic papers on the Old Testament, will be nicer if you cite one about the Flood. That book is a compilation of articles originally published elsewhere. If you would rather hunt down the original articles from the 50s 60s and 70s go nuts but we have established that you are lazy. If you would rather mindlessly LOL then just keep shining on you crazy ignorant diamond.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 31, 2016 Author Posted July 31, 2016 19 hours ago, danielwoods said: If I recall correctly they come from one area in Mexico and a couple of researchers have tried to gather data. I think they identified where to dig to find more, but weren't allowed to dig. As far as "discoverers" the locals seemed to be familiar with artifacts and their history but don't talk about it because they don't want the negative attention. (Negative from "real" scientists). So, those who are discovering it now are usually European/American researchers. Then my premise would be that, these clay "dinosaurs", like the Ica carved stones from Peru, are merely locally produced "collectables" designed for naive and gullible foreigners. Prove me wrong.
danielwoods Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said: Then my premise would be that, these clay "dinosaurs", like the Ica carved stones from Peru, are merely locally produced "collectables" designed for naive and gullible foreigners. Prove me wrong. Not my job. Nor my interest. I posted them at the request of another poster. They are examples of what's out there. There is no "proof" when it comes to studying history anyway, it's always based on faith and trust.
danielwoods Posted July 31, 2016 Posted July 31, 2016 Dave Adkisson, the president and CEO of the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce, recently visited the Ark and had this to say: "I took my three grandkids to the ark on Saturday, and we had a wonderful visit. They loved the displays and the petting zoo. I focused on the parking lot being full (!) and the amazing construction. What a feat! You had quite a crowd on Saturday, but it was handled very efficiently. Best wishes for continued success!"
whirlingmerc Posted August 1, 2016 Posted August 1, 2016 The flood was to cover 'all the high mountains under all the heavens' I do like that when one man, Noah, offered sacrifice after the flood God's wrath was satisfied and He promised never again to destroy the earth with a flood, putting his bow in the clouds. I like how Jonathan Edwards described it, the bow was no longer facing the earth but aimed at the man in heaven, Jesus Christ who would take the wrath of God on the cross for believers.
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