No More PEC

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If had grown up catholic, sure.

Wouldn't you assume that people might wonder why, if you believe a male only priesthood is manmade doctrine (and completely arbitrary and the result of sexist men leading the church and rightfully mocked) that  you would join another church as an adult that specifically taught that women can't hold the priesthood?

I'm not saying that there's no logical reason for a person to do that, only that it seems odd and like a reasonable thing to wonder about.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wouldn't you assume that people might wonder why, if you believe a male only priesthood is manmade doctrine (and completely arbitrary and the result of sexist men leading the church and rightfully mocked) that  you would join another church as an adult that specifically taught that women can't hold the priesthood?

I'm not saying that there's no logical reason for a person to do that, only that it seems odd and like a reasonable thing to wonder about.

If patriarchy and sexism was the only issue that mattered to a person I could see why one might question joining another patriarchal church. But that assumes patriarchy is the #1 and likely only issue for that person.

Or the person may recognize that issue in both churches but still find enough good in one of them to deal with it as a member. In any case I think this entire line of discussion requires a lot of assumptions to be made about a complex issue like belief, faith and church membership where there are likely multitudes of issues at play.

[bluebell]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

In any case I think this entire line of discussion requires a lot of assumptions to be made about a complex issue like belief, faith and church membership where there are likely multitudes of issues at play.

You didn't answer my question though.

Wouldn't you assume that people might wonder why you would join another church as an adult that specifically taught that women can't hold the priesthood?  Is it unreasonable to question such a person who was openly mocking someone else because they believed women shouldn't hold the priesthood because God said so?

I don't think wondering and asking questions assumes anything much.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You didn't answer my question though.

Wouldn't you assume that people might wonder why you would join another church as an adult that specifically taught that women can't hold the priesthood?  Is it unreasonable to question such a person who was openly mocking someone else because they believed women shouldn't hold the priesthood because God said so?

I don't think wondering and asking questions assumes anything much.

 

I think a question would be reasonable but your original quote was...

Quote

It just seems odd that a Catholic would have an issue with women not being allowed to do certain things in church. 

Is this a question? Doesn't sound like it. You were making a judgment statement (it seems odd) about a catholic having an opinion about sexism in church. It came across to me as dismissive. You made assumptions. You didn't ask a question.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough. I'm out.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think a question would be reasonable but your original quote was...

Is this a question? Doesn't sound like it. You were making a judgment statement (it seems odd) about a catholic having an opinion about sexism in church. It came across to me as dismissive. You made assumptions. You didn't ask a question.

I think we've beat this dead horse enough. I'm out.

Well, my original quote was to ask her if she was Catholic because i was confused why a Catholic would have the stance and be saying the types of things that she was saying to someone who believed the same thing her chosen church strongly believes and teaches.  It was how she was expressing her opinion and to whom she was expressing it to that i found odd.

My 'it seems odd' statement was not based on it being odd that a Catholic would have an opinion about sexism in church.  You assumed that's why i asked and said what i said, but your assumption isn't correct.

 

[cynth]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Well, my original quote was to ask her if she was Catholic because i was confused why a Catholic would have the stance and be saying the types of things that she was saying to someone who believed the same thing her chosen church strongly believes and teaches.  It was how she was expressing her opinion and to whom she was expressing it to that i found odd.

My 'it seems odd' statement was not based on it being odd that a Catholic would have an opinion about sexism in church.  You assumed that's why i asked and said what i said, but your assumption isn't correct.

 

Sorry I've been away and didn't see that my comment had raised some issues but I am happy to explain.  in our catholic parish, there are male priests, a male bishop, and several female nuns, all of whom work in full time positions to run the parish and also help with the parish school (which 2 of my children attended).   Only males are priests and bishops, only females are nuns.

BUT HERE IS THE CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE.  There is NO volunteer work that is available to my family at our parish that cannot be done by either my (male) husband, or by (female) me.  The members of my family are treated absolutely EQUALLY in terms of what my family can contribute to our parish.  there is NO difference in what a female lay member can do, compared to what a male lay member can do. 

That equality in how my family is treated in our parish is incredibly meaningful to me, and is light years away from how I was raised.  It is especially important to me that my sons grow up in an environment like this also.  Defining people's overall abilities and voluntary contributions in church by their gender is simply not part of their life.

Edited June 28, 2016 by cynth

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, cynth said:

Sorry I've been away and didn't see that my comment had raised some issues but I am happy to explain.  in our catholic parish, there are male priests, a male bishop, and several female nuns, all of whom work in full time positions to run the parish and also help with the parish school (which 2 of my children attended).   Only males are priests and bishops, only females are nuns.

BUT HERE IS THE CRUCIAL DIFFERENCE.  There is NO volunteer work that is available to my family at our parish that cannot be done by either my (male) husband, or by (female) me.  The members of my family are treated absolutely EQUALLY in terms of what my family can contribute to our parish.  there is NO difference in what a female lay member can do, compared to what a male lay member can do. 

That equality in how my family is treated in our parish is incredibly meaningful to me, and is light years away from how I was raised. 

Thank you for explaining.

It's interesting to see the differences you place on lay volunteers verses those called to positions (that's probably not the right term, but i don't know what is).  I'm not saying that to be argumentative or snarky, it's just interesting to see how we all interpret things differently.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for explaining.

It's interesting to see the differences you place on lay volunteers verses those called to positions (that's probably not the right term, but i don't know what is).  I'm not saying that to be argumentative or snarky, it's just interesting to see how we all interpret things differently.

When you think about it, all of our callings in a way have been volunteering time and effort.  In general, I like the Catholic idea as contributing equally to whatever is needed. I agree that interpretations are unique.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

When you think about it, all of our callings in a way have been volunteering time and effort.  In general, I like the Catholic idea as contributing equally to whatever is needed. I agree that interpretations are unique.

Definitely.

It's interesting to see how for some people it's fine to have women excluded from certain service opportunities as long as they aren't lay service opportunities and for other's that absolutely would not be o.k.  We are all unique in how we interpret things.

[cynth]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for explaining.

It's interesting to see the differences you place on lay volunteers verses those called to positions (that's probably not the right term, but i don't know what is).  I'm not saying that to be argumentative or snarky, it's just interesting to see how we all interpret things differently.

I understand.  All I can say is it's good to see how others in the world interpret things differently.  And in my experience, yes, those who have the calling to become priests or nuns consider their callings very, very seriously, and their callings are respectfully treated as such.  I don't have that calling, so my concern is that within my family, I want to show my children that people can contribute according to their abilities, and not as defined by their genders. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, cynth said:

I understand.  All I can say is it's good to see how others in the world interpret things differently.  And in my experience, yes, those who have the calling to become priests or nuns consider their callings very, very seriously, and their callings are respectfully treated as such.  I don't have that calling, so my concern is that within my family, I want to show my children that people can contribute according to their abilities, and not as defined by their genders. 

Does this mean that you believe there are no women capable of being pope, for example, and that is why women can't be pope, or am I completely misunderstanding what you mean?

[cynth]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Does this mean that you believe there are no women capable of being pope, for example, and that is why women can't be pope, or am I completely misunderstanding what you mean?

I'm not discussing pope selection, I am discussing volunteer work my family does in my parish.  I can respect those who chose to be priests or nuns without agreeing with that choice.   Right now, however, I am discussing the equality across gender that is in evidence in the volunteer work my family can do in my parish, and the impact that has on my sons as they see their mother and father treated as individuals and not as members of a gender class where certain activities are restricted based on gender, and gender alone.

One of my sons believes, the other is an atheist, but we attend Mass together as a family experience that is peaceful, meditative, and good for our souls, in whatever way each of us defines that (including the atheist who won't recite any creeds he doesn't believe in!)  We sing, we relax, we go out to breakfast afterwards, we serve our community in a variety of ways during the week, each based on his individual talents and desires.  It is a meaningful family event, and it is extremely important to me, in the context of this meaningful family activity, that my sons do not see their mother OR their father treated or separated in a generic way, solely on the basis of their gender. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by cynth

[smac97]

15 minutes ago, cynth said:

I understand.  All I can say is it's good to see how others in the world interpret things differently.  And in my experience, yes, those who have the calling to become priests or nuns consider their callings very, very seriously,

Could you likewise accept that Latter-day Saints consider their callings "very, very seriously?"

I have great respect for the Catholic Church, but doesn't it likewise restrict the priesthood to men?  Is that restriction "arbitrary" and "sexist" and "unfounded and unwarranted" and "inappropriate" and "{w}ith no concern about their {women's} abilities or capabilities" and so on?

I hope you don't treat your own faith with as much scorn and contempt and ridicule as you have publicly treated ours.  

Quote

and their callings are respectfully treated as such. 

And yet when it comes to respecting the "very, very seriously" considered callings in the LDS Church, you . . . don't.  

Quote

I don't have that calling, so my concern is that within my family, I want to show my children that people can contribute according to their abilities, and not as defined by their genders. 

So women can "contribute" in the Catholic Church as ordained priests?  Men can serve as nuns?  The answer is plainly "no" and "no."

And yet you cherish your faith despite it having gender-based restrictions on come positions within it.  I'm glad of that, but it doesn't explain your visceral hostility to LDS gender-based distinctions.  Glass houses and all that...

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, cynth said:

I'm not discussing pope selection, I am discussing volunteer work my family does in my parish.  I can respect those who chose to be priests or nuns without agreeing with that choice.   Right now, however, I am discussing the equality across gender that is in evidence in the volunteer work my family can do in my parish, and the impact that has on my sons as they see their mother and father treated as individuals and not as members of a gender class where certain activities are restricted based on gender, and gender alone.

One of my sons believes, the other is an atheist, but we attend Mass together as a family experience that is peaceful, meditative, and good for our souls, in whatever way each of us defines that (including the atheist who won't recite any creeds he doesn't believe in!)  We sing, we relax, we go out to breakfast afterwards, we serve our community in a variety of ways during the week, each based on his individual talents and desires.  It is a meaningful family event, and it is extremely important to me, in the context of this meaningful family activity, that my sons do not see their mother OR their father treated or separated in a generic way, solely on the basis of their gender. 

Sorry if i misunderstood.  

I was responding to your statement-I want to show my children that people can contribute according to their abilities, and not as defined by their genders. I was trying to understand the statement in light of the fact that the Pope is an example of the Catholic church defining what people can contribute based on their gender.  I see now that i was comparing your statement to the doctrine of the Catholic church while you were applying it only to your family situation (and none of them are popes, priests, etc.).

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It really does get hard to take after a while.  I know that some women love teaching primary, but for me (and a lot of women like me) who have little children at home and are stay at home moms, church is sometimes the only two hours the entire week when we aren't with kids.  Being asked to be in primary or nursery under those circumstances can carry a big emotional and mental toll.

Tip to bishopric calling SAHMs of young children to be primary teacher: don't try to convince her by saying "Jesus loved the little children."

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

In my ward, they call men as team teachers all the time in primary. We even have a man in nursery without his wife (though there are two other men and women in there as well). 

Maybe they'll do that in your ward eventually.  

in my last ward we had no men serving in the primary for awhile, I can understand why since one of the primary teachers in the stake was also a school teacher and molested children in both his primary and school classes. People panicked a little. It was really a shame because my husband loves being a primary teacher and is much better at it than I am. 

[Tacenda]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

Tip to bishopric calling SAHMs of young children to be primary teacher: don't try to convince her by saying "Jesus loved the little children."

in my last ward we had no men serving in the primary for awhile, I can understand why since one of the primary teachers in the stake was also a school teacher and molested children in both his primary and school classes. People panicked a little. It was really a shame because my husband loves being a primary teacher and is much better at it than I am. 

We have several men teaching Primary in my ward, including my hubby. That's really too bad that happened in your previous ward. Kind of puts a black mark, where one should never have been.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Tacenda

[ERMD]

On 6/28/2016 at 8:38 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

If your ward council meetings were less condescending than statements like this, then yes, I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Patriarchy and chauvinism permeates church culture.

Condescending?  Seems to me like it's a wish granted.  "...and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (or priesthood, or title, or office).