Tattoo dilemma leaves its marks on BYU-Hawaii students who work at Mormon-owned Polynesian Cultural Center

[Tacenda]

Peggy posted this article.  http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4040247-155/tattoo-dilemma-leaves-its-marks-on  What do you think. Is this a problem?  Should these dancers cover up?  Or is it just business?  And should the church be giving fake tattoos to people?  

I'm not being snarky here.  Just wondering what the board thought.  

Edited June 23, 2016 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks, Tacenda.

This is an issue which has been around for a while, and it is sad that the Brethren have not dealt with it effectively as yet -- in place of BYU and CES administrators who are incapable of telling the difference between criminal gang tattoos in the USA and the traditional cultural tattoos employed in Polynesia (Tongan, Samoan, Tahitian, Hawaiian, Maori, etc.), and elsewhere in tribal and religious societies.  For example, Coptic Christians in Egypt all have a cross tattooed visibly in the web of their hand.  Should they have to remove it to attend BYU?

The late Hugh Nibley had little patience for those who ignored more important issues while worrying about the outward appearance of students at BYU.  He considered dress and grooming standards of little importance in his 1973 BYU lecture "Waiting for Zion,"

Quote

"The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism...the haircut becomes the test of virtue in a world where Satan deceives and rules by appearances.""  Nibley Approaching Zion. The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, IX (Deseret Book, 1998). 54, 57.

 

[Jeanne]

I say..celebrate a beautiful culture..any culture..in song, dress, dance and whatever to preserve it.  To me, this is all silly stuff.  Cover tattoos real or not and outside the celebration observe your honor code.  If you can wear pioneer clothes on a trek or in a parade then you can wear the tradition of all ancestors.

[Rain]

I'm not sure why there is a problem.  When they are at the culture center they are in a cultural performance.  There may be a few people that want ballet dancers or gymnasts or runners to cover up, but I think most people can see the difference in being in the performance/sport etc and every day life.   So the students dress one way for school and another way for work.  No big deal to me.  

The fake tattoo thing that they are passing out to customers?  That's a little odd for me. Just going a step too far.  I get having the performers having a real tattoo.  But giving the fake ones out to tourists really isn't going to enhance the experience that much. 

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I say..celebrate a beautiful culture..any culture..in song, dress, dance and whatever to preserve it.  To me, this is all silly stuff.  Cover tattoos real or not and outside the celebration observe your honor code.  If you can wear pioneer clothes on a trek or in a parade then you can wear the tradition of all ancestors.

I agree, celebrate their culture like that for sure.

My daughter is a self taught tattoo artist...mostly on herself, and I often worry people judge her, mostly in my extended family. 

I think it's getting better though, we aren't hearing so much anymore about wearing only one pair of earrings, or no tattoos.  

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

LEV 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

Unless you're Polynesian.  

[Storm Rider]

There are lots of layers to this issue.  Some having to do with the Church, some with US culture, and some spiritual.  The Church has yet, imnsho, to grasp fully a self-perception of an international, world-wide church/organization.  In the past, it too often exported US culture and architectural styles as if it is the only way things are done.  The Church was also reticent about adapting to local cultures and mores.  I think it is getting better, but it is not there yet.  

The manner of dress for those who have attended the temple revolves around wearing the garment.  It requires a degree of modesty and guides our dress standards accordingly regardless of our geographic location.  The garment has adapted to to facilitate its use, but it may never change to the point that it does not exist.

An entertainment business like the Poly-center requires costumes and has nothing to do with how an individual will dress or comport themselves in their personal lives.  Ms. Stack's desperate attempt to invent a clash seems infantile to me and easily understood by adults.  

There are a lot of real problems to be discussed and this is not one of them.  

Edited June 24, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Meg Stout]

9 hours ago, JAHS said:

LEV 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

A presentation at MHA discussing this issue pointed out the unusual amount of body modification (plastic surgery) going on in Utah.

I'm not sure about the time of Leviticus, but in some cultures, it is traditional to cut off a finger each time a loved one dies.

Traditional tattoos in Maori and Polynesian culture are not (I believe) associated with marks and cuttings to commemorate the dead.

[Buckeye]

I never understood the traditional LDS explanation for opposing tattoos. "You wouldn't put graffiti on a temple, right?" is the refrain. But we put all kinds of symbols on our temples - "Holiness to the Lord", clasped hands, the big dipper, angel moroni, and many more. So what's the objection when people do the same thing and put meaningful symbols on their own "temples?"

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I never understood the traditional LDS explanation for opposing tattoos. "You wouldn't put graffiti on a temple, right?" is the refrain. But we put all kinds of symbols on our temples - "Holiness to the Lord", clasped hands, the big dipper, angel moroni, and many more. So what's the objection when people do the same thing and put meaningful symbols on their own "temples?"

I admit, I probably judged people with tattoos, it was ingrained in me. Glad I'm getting over it now.  I love the quote Robert shared from Hugh Nibley on this thread!  I thought this was cool. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/06/22/dad-gets-tattoo-match-his-sons-brain-surgery-scar/86226438/ It made his son so happy.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Meg Stout said:

A presentation at MHA discussing this issue pointed out the unusual amount of body modification (plastic surgery) going on in Utah.

I'm not sure about the time of Leviticus, but in some cultures, it is traditional to cut off a finger each time a loved one dies.

Traditional tattoos in Maori and Polynesian culture are not (I believe) associated with marks and cuttings to commemorate the dead.

I wonder why it's okay to get tattoos on women's faces like eyebrows, and eyeliners.  Oh, and I agree there is much body modification going on in Utah.  

[Meg Stout]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder why it's okay to get tattoos on women's faces like eyebrows, and eyeliners.  Oh, and I agree there is much body modification going on in Utah.  

My take on it, from watching the announcement of the piercing/tattoo policy at Women's Conference years ago, was that President Hinckley was trying to guide the youth and others of that particular time to mark themselves as unique by not marking themselves. Tongue splitting, tattoos, and piercings in the late 1990s meant buying into social activities, sexual standards and ideologies that President Hinckley felt were unnecessarily damaging.

Ironically, I have a daughter who has never been pierced, will never get a tattoo, will never have plastic surgery, and won't shave/Nair things. Under duress shemight let us pluck her eyebrows. Just to say she won't do things that no Church leader would ever attempt to prohibit by policy.

[thesometimesaint]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I never understood the traditional LDS explanation for opposing tattoos. "You wouldn't put graffiti on a temple, right?" is the refrain. But we put all kinds of symbols on our temples - "Holiness to the Lord", clasped hands, the big dipper, angel moroni, and many more. So what's the objection when people do the same thing and put meaningful symbols on their own "temples?"

It is more cultural than anything else. If I was a young man again seeking my first "real" job. I'd dress appropriately for the job I wanted. and not adorn my body with visable tattoo's, and piercing's. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[Guest]

On June 23, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Tacenda said:

Peggy posted this article.  http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4040247-155/tattoo-dilemma-leaves-its-marks-on  What do you think. Is this a problem?  Should these dancers cover up?  Or is it just business?  And should the church be giving fake tattoos to people?  

I'm not being snarky here.  Just wondering what the board thought.  

A dear friend of mine, her son is there now and works in the show. It is entertainment, but also cultural history. Therefore it must be accurate and not watered down. Is it a business? No, it is self supporting and also assists students to earn their way (and least in part) toward their own education. My friend's son is the third generation of this Southren family at BYU-Hawaii. 

[strappinglad]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 6:56 PM, JAHS said:

LEV 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

Unless you're Polynesian.  

You really, really don't want to start a discussion on all the rules outlined in Leviticus which we no longer follow.

[JAHS]

20 hours ago, strappinglad said:

You really, really don't want to start a discussion on all the rules outlined in Leviticus which we no longer follow.

I know. I meant that to be a joke. ;-)