Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Believe it or not, I don't think Stayner's behavior warrants his being fired. I just think that, under the circumstances, there must be better candidates for captain, either from in-house or outside the department. Officer Stayner's promotion would be from Officer to Sergeant.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 On 6/20/2016 at 0:10 AM, california boy said: No kidding. Only in Utah Really? Only in Utah would one find any mingling of religious and civic symbols, or any trace of the former in public life, or any potential conflict over such mingling? Who knew? I guess the ACLU really has no beef with Los Angeles County, then, eh? http://www.scpr.org/blogs/politics/2014/02/06/15782/aclu-sues-over-cross-symbol-on-official-la-county/
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) On 6/19/2016 at 5:41 PM, provoman said: the statements are centainly cause for concern....but such conduct - either favoring a religion or speaking against a religion - does not seem uncommon for Utah government representatives. Not long Provo fire and police started promoting the Provo City Temple on their uniforms. That should bother those who are bothered by the SlC police officer statements. On 6/20/2016 at 0:10 AM, california boy said: No kidding. Only in Utah Garden Grove, Iowa, is in a school district called the Mormon Trail School District. The public school in Garden Grove is called the Mormon Trail Junior/Senior High School. The school mascot is the Mormon Trail Saints. But Mormons make up only a tiny segment of the population. The reason for the name, of course, is that the Mormon Pioneer Trail comes right through southern Iowa, and the local residents are conscious of -- and proud of -- the historical identity of the locale where they live. I'm tempted to reply to california boy's remark by saying that "only in Utah" are people apt to be castigated for making a logo out of a local landmark that has historic or cultural import when it pertains in some degree to the Church of Jesus Christ. Of course, the reality is that complaining secularists are apt to exist anywhere. Edited June 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Officer Stayner's promotion would be from Officer to Sergeant. I'm not acquainted with SLPD procedure, but according to the OP, he is up for promotion to captain.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Yes. Utah Code Ann. § 76-9-701 (it's a Class C Misdemeanor, one step above an infraction, although I realize you were probably using the word "infraction" in its more general sense rather than in any technical legal sense). http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter9/76-9-S701.html?v=C76-9-S701_2015051220150512 I was, in fact. But in response to your post, I have amended mine and changed "infraction" to "offense." I actually wrestled with what term to use before settling on infraction. I was wary of overstating the matter. But in fact there was an allegation of lawbreaking that obliged the police to act. I would call it de facto law breaking. The subjects skated away on a technicality, when the city attorney, Sim Gill, declined to prosecute because there were no signs posted identifying the plaza as private property. There were such signs posted shortly after the incident, however.
california boy Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Really? Only in Utah would one find any mingling of religious and civic symbols, or any trace of the former in public life, or any potential conflict over such mingling? Who knew? I guess the ACLU really has no beef with Los Angeles County, then, eh? http://www.scpr.org/blogs/politics/2014/02/06/15782/aclu-sues-over-cross-symbol-on-official-la-county/ You do realize that according to the article you linked, the cross has yet to be added. It is only being discussed.
Calm Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, stemelbow said: http://www.ontopmag.com/article/4196/Utah_Gay_Kiss_Police_Report_Sides_With_Couple When I googled this was the first option that came up. interesting. I think my problem is the thread I posted a link to a discussion about this back in 2009 or 10 got deleted. Even with only using temple square gay kiss, nothing comes up and I know we discussed it heavily. And I am wondering if the name wasn't used or was misspelled (as I have often done)...it might have been just a generic expression of appreciation to the police and not specifically to him as my memory states. It was certainly not widely talked about by 2015 and while I had read a number of articles on the 2009 TS event when and after it happened, I only came across this by someone pointing it out to me so even at the time it occurred, it would seem little was said. Limited searching is not finding it and I can't do more because that would require longer sitting on a bruised tailbone that I am babying for the last six months in hopes that I can sit longer than 5 mins at a time sometime in the next 20 years. Edited June 22, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Wrong post quoted, meant the Mormon trail post Spanish Missions stuff was all over California government stuff iirc growing up. I visited a few nearby ones in high school. Edited June 22, 2016 by Calm 2
Kenngo1969 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Quote You do realize that according to the article you linked, the cross has yet to be added. It is only being discussed. My reading comprehension skills are just fine, thank you: Quote In a reprise of an earlier legal fight, the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California sued the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors on Thursday for voting to return a religious cross to the official County seal [Emphasis added]. Look up the dictionary definition of return. Something cannot be returned to a location where it never had been to begin with. Quote In 2004, under threat of another lawsuit by the ACLU, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 to remove the cross from the county seal. The cross was part of the first official seal, created in 1957, and was featured above a rendering of the Hollywood Bowl [Emphasis added.] The vote to remove it sparked a legal battle that culminated in 2007 with the U.S. Supreme Court refusing to hear a challenge by conservative Christian groups to the board’s vote. In any event, timing is irrelevant. Your contention that debates over the proper place, if any, of religious symbols in public life take place only in Utah is belied by the fact that such debates have indeed occurred elsewhere. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 52 minutes ago, Calm said: Spanish Missions stuff was all over California government stuff iirc growing up. I visited a few nearby ones in high school. Indeed. One need not be conversant, much less fluent, in Spanish to know that the very name "Los Angeles" carries with it religious connotations, translating as, "The Angels." The founding of Los Angeles predates California statehood by about 69 years. Those who advocate the eradication of any intersection between religion and public life also ignore history as well as culture. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Garden Grove, Iowa, is in a school district called the Mormon Trail School District. The public school in Garden Grove is called the Mormon Trail Junior/Senior High School. The school mascot is the Mormon Trail Saints. But Mormons make up only a tiny segment of the population. The reason for the name, of course, is that the Mormon Pioneer Trail comes right through southern Iowa, and the local residents are conscious of -- and proud of -- the historical identity of the locale where they live. I'm tempted to reply to california boy's remark by saying that "only in Utah" are people apt to be castigated for making a logo out of a local landmark that has historic or cultural import when it pertains in some degree to the Church of Jesus Christ. Of course, the reality is that complaining secularists are apt to exist anywhere. Lookie what I found on Ye Olde Internet : http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/29460/Trail-spawned-towns-along-the-way.html Edited June 22, 2016 by Kenngo1969 1
california boy Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: My reading comprehension skills are just fine, thank you: Look up the dictionary definition of return. Something cannot be returned to a location where it never had been to begin with. In any event, timing is irrelevant. Your contention that debates over the proper place, if any, of religious symbols in public life take place only in Utah is belied by the fact that such debates have indeed occurred elsewhere. It appears that my reading skills are what need to be improved. Thanks for the correction. And I take back my comment. Yes there are other areas of the country where government sponsors specific religions. Usually things like this go to court because it is fundamentally wrong according to how the constitution has been interpreted.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On June 21, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Kenngo1969 said: Lookie what I found on Ye Olde Internet : http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/29460/Trail-spawned-towns-along-the-way.html That hack? A pity you couldn't find somebody more reliable to corroborate it. Incidentally, in the print version of that story we ran a picture I shot of the Mormon Trail Junior-Senior High School sign on the lawn in front of the building. In those days (mid- '90s) we didn't digitally archive the photos that ran with the stories. 2
provoman Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 On June 21, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Scott Lloyd said: Garden Grove, Iowa, is in a school district called the Mormon Trail School District. The public school in Garden Grove is called the Mormon Trail Junior/Senior High School. The school mascot is the Mormon Trail Saints. But Mormons make up only a tiny segment of the population. The reason for the name, of course, is that the Mormon Pioneer Trail comes right through southern Iowa, and the local residents are conscious of -- and proud of -- the historical identity of the locale where they live. I'm tempted to reply to california boy's remark by saying that "only in Utah" are people apt to be castigated for making a logo out of a local landmark that has historic or cultural import when it pertains in some degree to the Church of Jesus Christ. Of course, the reality is that complaining secularists are apt to exist anywhere. The badges were made specifically to celebrate the NEW (previously non-existant Temple. The badges are not celebrating the history or cultural import ( mostly likely only to cultural import to LDS) of the building.
Calm Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 The temple that now stands first and foremost, IMO, due to the efforts of the firefighters going above and beyond their duty. I think it would be appropriate to celebrate the saving of any building of significant and cultural importance. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, provoman said: The badges were made specifically to celebrate the NEW (previously non-existant Temple. The badges are not celebrating the history or cultural import ( mostly likely only to cultural import to LDS) of the building. The structure existed previously for over a century. It was not a temple, but it was, among other things, a center of community culture, with many secular, civic events being held there. I don't see anything reasonably objectionable about memorializing that fact on a city logo, any more than the folks in Garden Grove paying homage to the historical import of the Mormon Pioneer Trail having come through their locale and having occasioned the founding of their city in 1846. If I lived in Oceanside, Calif., I would have no objection to the Catholic Mission San Luis Rey being recognized on the city seal. In fact, it is so recognized: Edited June 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Calm Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 If Temple employees wore badges, I'd vote for them to wear a PC firefighter logo of some sort.
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