stemelbow Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 If I were gay I'd adopt this type of thinking a la Joseph Smith: Quote And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. What do we care where we are? 1
JLHPROF Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) If by this you mean that any location (heaven/hell/Church) is only as righteous or wicked as those that dwell in it, then I would agree. If the SSM supporters in the Church want to turn correct principles out and turn the Church into a little more Telestial of an organization, I am sure that it is a possibility. Just as Joseph would have turned a Telestial organization into a more Celestial one by the application of correct principles. Edited May 17, 2016 by JLHPROF 3
consiglieri Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 My concern is that the LDS Church has taken heaven and made a hell of it. Mormons have defined hell as a lack of progression and created a church to match the definition.
Jeanne Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I agree with consig The church has redefined heaven and hell. 1
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 26 minutes ago, consiglieri said: My concern is that the LDS Church has taken heaven and made a hell of it. Mormons have defined hell as a lack of progression and created a church to match the definition. Reminds me of that guy at the Malheur occupation who said he was Captain Moroni. On his Facebook page, he had written that his idea of hell was endless church meetings. 1
Ahab Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: If I were gay I'd adopt this type of thinking a la Joseph Smith: Not quite what Joseph had in mind, though. The way he had in mind for turning hell into heaven was by living righteously in hell as if it was heaven. Living unrighteously anywhere won't turn that place into heaven, no matter how much or how long gay people commit their unrighteous acts while thinking their unrighteous acts are good. 2
Eek! Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 If the Earth is a Telestial world, then making a heaven out of hell has arguably been on the agenda for quite a while. Joseph Smith taught the principle that we cannot be saved without everyone we're connected to (he phrased it in terms of our dead ancestors, but logically it extends to the living as well). And where does that web of connection end? It doesn't. It includes everyone. Maybe we'd do well to draw our circles bigger instead of smaller.
CV75 Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: If I were gay I'd adopt this type of thinking a la Joseph Smith: Are you saying that a person with same-sex attraction can successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church? Great! 1
Ahab Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: Are you saying that a person with same-sex attraction can successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church? Great! I'm doing it. And I still feel strongly that both sexes are sexually attractive. And I probably always will! 2
CV75 Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: I'm doing it. And I still feel strongly that both sexes are sexually attractive. And I probably always will! And I trust you will keep it up! Critics of the Church on this issue typically insist that it cannot be done. 1
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, CV75 said: And I trust you will keep it up! Critics of the Church on this issue typically insist that it cannot be done. I've never heard anyone say that it's impossible for bisexuals to "successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church." Who have you been talking to? I don't even think it's impossible for gay members to keep church covenants. I don't think most gay people will be very happy in the church, but some will. 3
Ahab Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I've never heard anyone say that it's impossible for bisexuals to "successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church." Who have you been talking to? I don't even think it's impossible for gay members to keep church covenants. I don't think most gay people will be very happy in the church, but some will. All it takes is the ability/power to see that both sexes have their own pluses and minuses, with nothing wrong about either sex, per se. Men who think/feel that only men are sexually attractive just need to open themselves up more... in their heart and mind, etc... to seeing how women are also sexually attractive too. And vice versa for women who feel/ think only women are sexually attractive, or for so-called "straight" people who feel/think that only the opposite sex is sexually attractive. We all are, each in our own way, whether male or female.
CV75 Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I've never heard anyone say that it's impossible for bisexuals to "successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church." Who have you been talking to? I don't even think it's impossible for gay members to keep church covenants. I don't think most gay people will be very happy in the church, but some will. I've been talking to Ahab, who said he has same-sex attraction and is keeping the covenants. I've been talking with other people as well who attest to the same thing. These I trust will join Joseph Smith in making a heaven out of hell, if we are sent there. On a related note, I've spoken with some people who fret that the Church covenants demand too much of people with same-sex attraction and should make doctrinal room for SSM and so forth as other churches have, and if the Church doesn't change, they can easily find someplace that accommodates their vision of heaven. I think it is great when someone affirms that a person with same-sex attraction can successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church, hence my original post. 1
stemelbow Posted May 17, 2016 Author Posted May 17, 2016 48 minutes ago, CV75 said: Are you saying that a person with same-sex attraction can successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church? Great! To the same extent anyone does--as it is everyone fails in some commandments now and then, at the very least.
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 1 minute ago, CV75 said: I've been talking to Ahab, who said he has same-sex attraction and is keeping the covenants. I've been talking with other people as well who attest to the same thing. These I trust will join Joseph Smith in making a heaven out of hell, if we are sent there. On a related note, I've spoken with some people who fret that the Church covenants demand too much of people with same-sex attraction and should make doctrinal room for SSM and so forth as other churches have, and if the Church doesn't change, they can easily find someplace that accommodates their vision of heaven. I think it is great when someone affirms that a person with same-sex attraction can successfully operate within the doctrines, covenants and commandments of the Church, hence my original post. I'm agreeing with him. What I was disagreeing with was the statement that critics say it's impossible for people with same-sex attraction or bisexuals (like Ahab, apparently) to function in the church. I've never heard anyone say it's impossible. I don't think the church is designed for those with same-sex attraction to thrive, but it's not impossible. Happens all the time. I know gay and bisexual members who are doing just fine, and if they are happy, more power to them. 1
Ahab Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: To the same extent anyone does--as it is everyone fails in some commandments now and then, at the very least. 'That's what repentance is for' would be a good line for a hymn... if anyone is interested in writing a hymn.
JLHPROF Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: My concern is that the LDS Church has taken heaven and made a hell of it. Mormons have defined hell as a lack of progression and created a church to match the definition. 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: I agree with consig The church has redefined heaven and hell. I'd like to see a scriptural definition that disagrees with the Church stance on those who dwell in heaven and hell. I think the Church has it exactly right morally speaking.
CV75 Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I'm agreeing with him. What I was disagreeing with was the statement that critics say it's impossible for people with same-sex attraction or bisexuals (like Ahab, apparently) to function in the church. I've never heard anyone say it's impossible. I don't think the church is designed for those with same-sex attraction to thrive, but it's not impossible. Happens all the time. I know gay and bisexual members who are doing just fine, and if they are happy, more power to them. Of course the Church is designed for all God's children to thrive. And of course critics of the Church on this issue typically say it isn't really designed for people with such issues, they are better off/happier elsewhere, etc. And other critics say there simply is no satisfactory room at all in either the Plan or the Church for "gay people," which I take to mean people with same-sex attraction, because there is no provision for eternal SSM. I refer you the abundance of threads on those topics so you can see for yourself, as a sampling of what critics of the Church on this subject have to say. 14 minutes ago, stemelbow said: To the same extent anyone does--as it is everyone fails in some commandments now and then, at the very least. And as it is everyone also succeeds in some commandments now and then. And all have access to grace. I think Joseph Smith expressed a wonderful sentiment, plus one that can be backed up with the keys. 1
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, CV75 said: Of course the Church is designed for all God's children to thrive. And of course critics of the Church on this issue typically say it isn't really designed for people with such issues, they are better off/happier elsewhere, etc. And other critics say there simply is no satisfactory room at all in either the Plan or the Church for "gay people," which I take to mean people with same-sex attraction, because there is no provision for eternal SSM. I refer you the abundance of threads on those topics so you can see for yourself, as a sampling of what critics of the Church on this subject have to say. I do think, by and large, gay people will find it rough going in the church, but some people manage to do just fine. I've never met anyone who has said it's impossible for gays and lesbians to be "successful" in the church, which is what I disagreed with you about. I have been around here long enough to know my position is pretty much the same as most "critics." Theologically speaking, there is no place for gays and lesbians in the plan of salvation; the assumption I have heard from church leaders and members is that faithful gays and lesbians will be "made whole" in the next life, but until then, they will have to suck it up and live without sex and intimacy.
Jeanne Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'd like to see a scriptural definition that disagrees with the Church stance on those who dwell in heaven and hell. I think the Church has it exactly right morally speaking. You are probably right. It is just lately (and I mean the past 5 years), a lot of things have changed. i meant my comment as in general..definitions of a lot of things have changed and we have discussed some of them on this board. I keep waiting for heaven and/or hell to become a different place. Or different places for different people Edited May 17, 2016 by Jeanne
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 Just now, Jeanne said: You are probably right. It is just lately (and I mean the past 5 years), a lot of things have changed. i meant my comment as in general..definitions of a lot of things have changed and we have discussed some of them on this board. I keep waiting for heaven and/or hell to become a different place. I have to believe that hell is less boring than sacrament meeting or one of those satellite priesthood training meetings. 2
Jeanne Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: I have to believe that hell is less boring than sacrament meeting or one of those satellite priesthood training meetings. You guys might chide me but I have been in heaven on Sunday...getting to just kind of do what I have to..then what I want.
jkwilliams Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 Just now, Jeanne said: You guys might chide me but I have been in heaven on Sunday...getting to just kind of do what I have to..then what I want. I usually clean the house while my wife is at church, but then I like having her come home to a clean house. 1
Ahab Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I do think, by and large, gay people will find it rough going in the church, but some people manage to do just fine. I've never met anyone who has said it's impossible for gays and lesbians to be "successful" in the church, which is what I disagreed with you about. I have been around here long enough to know my position is pretty much the same as most "critics." Theologically speaking, there is no place for gays and lesbians in the plan of salvation; the assumption I have heard from church leaders and members is that faithful gays and lesbians will be "made whole" in the next life, but until then, they will have to suck it up and live without sex and intimacy. That whole "made whole" idea is something worth thinking about, and I have thought about it enough already to arrive at the thought that the whole idea is that everybody is sexually attractive in some way. Not just men, and not just women. Everybody, and every body, is sexually attractive in some way. Those who don't see that aren't getting the whole picture. And I hope that will be fixed someday, and someday soon, too.
MDalby Posted May 17, 2016 Posted May 17, 2016 I was asked once why Mormons have so many kids and I answered, because then we know what hell feels like and it will make us appreciate heaven.
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