Atheist Mormon Posted April 25, 2016 Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Professional historians (including atheists) generally agree that Jesus existed. The evidence is more than adequate. They disagree about the claims made about him: What did he in fact say or teach? If evidence about Jesus being a Fantasy figure is more than adequate. How come none of his prophecies are fulfilled? The Apostles were waiting for a miraculous second coming, Apostle Paul was thinking it was eminent Jesus would be here before he would be dead.....99% of everything Jesus said failed in a big way, but of course this is my very biased reality driven opinion. I mean how long are you going to believe in someone like Jesus who promises to Move Mountains? The worst element in all is that millions upon millions who put their faith in him got slaughtered; they had no chance against the sword, (That some other Prophet put his faith in it)..... Edited April 25, 2016 by Atheist Mormon misspelling
Ahab Posted April 25, 2016 Posted April 25, 2016 On 4/24/2016 at 1:44 PM, filovirus said: Question came up in Elders quorum. What is the purpose of Christ keeping the spear wound after he was resurrected? We didn't have an answer. That was one of the wounds he received for offering himself as the sacrifice for all of everyone's sins, whether they are past sins or sins we/they haven't committed yet but will sometime in the future, so as such the wound symbolizes eternal sins and is in some sense an eternal wound. A wound from something that never will go away, since the sacrifice covers every sin anyone and everyone will ever committ in the future. It's as much a symbol of honor to him as it is a blemish of what would have otherwise been an unblemished sacrifice of himself, because although it was a wound to his body it was/is/will be by his wounds that we are healed. I think he could make all the wounds go away and never come back if he wanted to, though, but seeing them is a reminder to us for how he got them and in some sense serve a good purpose.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: If evidence about Jesus being a Fantasy figure is more than adequate. How come none of his prophecies are fulfilled? The Apostles were waiting for a miraculous second coming, Apostle Paul was thinking it was eminent Jesus would be here before he would be dead.....99% of everything Jesus said failed in a big way, but of course this is my very biased reality driven opinion. I mean how long are you going to believe in someone like Jesus who promises to Move Mountains? The worst element in all is that millions upon millions who put their faith in him got slaughtered; they had no chance against the sword, (That some other Prophet put his faith in it)..... Do you have a serious article or book which supports these rather odd claims. While it is true that many Christians expected the imminent return of Jesus, I know of no serious historian or biblical scholar who would agree with you here on your other claims, atheist or not. I wonder whether you might care to provide the actual figures for the millions upon millions of his followers who were slaughtered? Where and when did that happen? Or was that hyperbole? I can for example tell you where and when over 6 million Jews were actually slaughtered by tne Nazis. I can also tell you about the Roman Catholic Inquisition, and make an estimate of its victims -- is that what you are referring to?
Atheist Mormon Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Do you have a serious article or book which supports these rather odd claims. While it is true that many Christians expected the imminent return of Jesus, I know of no serious historian or biblical scholar who would agree with you here on your other claims, atheist or not. I wonder whether you might care to provide the actual figures for the millions upon millions of his followers who were slaughtered? Where and when did that happen? Or was that hyperbole? I can for example tell you where and when over 6 million Jews were actually slaughtered by tne Nazis. I can also tell you about the Roman Catholic Inquisition, and make an estimate of its victims -- is that what you are referring to? Do you need any evidence for the existence of oxygen or the veracity of speed of life? You do not need evidence for these laws because they are here whether we believe or not. For the existence & ministry of Jesus is a different matter altogether. We have the Scriptures to claim multitude of things supposedly happened, (this not the worst part). And the promises of the heaven, moving the mountains, chasing demons from one's body, raising the dead...Nothing, absolutely nothing supernatural ever happened.... "I wonder whether you might care to provide the actual figures for the millions upon millions of his followers who were slaughtered?" Actual figures are filled in the history of the Planet in the name of Christianity and Islam; Among those victims were my ancestors; they were butchered, deported and eliminated from the land they were living. Funny thing is, when you visit those lands, you'd have hard time meeting one of my kin, who once dominated the landscape but you can see hundreds of demolished, decaying Churches strewn along the territory.. Think about it, where would Mormons be if it wasn't for Brigham young's leadership? Can you imagine one second Brigham would play the role martyr? If you live in Utah or visited the place, which I live part time, I see only a survival story depended on the tenacity of women/men another good example is Swiss Confederation....Whereas South America was destroyed, biologically and culturally....
3DOP Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 It might be of interest to some to consider Christ on the Cross as the Second Adam. The First Adam was in a deep sleep when God took a rib from his side and brought forth his spouse, Eve. The Second Adam also was "asleep" when the spear pierced His side. Water and blood poured forth from this wound so near the heart of the Man Christ Jesus, and from His heart, God brings forth His spouse, the Church.
RevTestament Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: If evidence about Jesus being a Fantasy figure is more than adequate. How come none of his prophecies are fulfilled? The Apostles were waiting for a miraculous second coming, Apostle Paul was thinking it was eminent Jesus would be here before he would be dead.....99% of everything Jesus said failed in a big way, but of course this is my very biased reality driven opinion. I mean how long are you going to believe in someone like Jesus who promises to Move Mountains? I'm not sure exactly what prophecies you are speaking of but His prophecies have been fulfilled. First He understood Daniel 9, and knew Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. He prophesied the temple too would be destroyed, and that not one stone of it would be left standing. He prophesied that the night would come in which no man could work, and this too happened when the Roman state church replaced the remnants of his true church, and the Roman Pontifex Maximus gained power over the church and proceeded to replace the gospel truths with his creeds. Many of the prophecies in Revelation have come to pass. And now as we enter the "millennium" the parable of the fig tree He mentioned is coming to fruition. If you understood your scripture, you would know that mountains are groups of people or churches. Thus, Joseph Smith did move mountains - many people from various churches converted and literally moved to the true mountain of the Lord, and the restored gospel. And we are now entering the very last days when those mountains shall be made flat. Quote The worst element in all is that millions upon millions who put their faith in him got slaughtered; they had no chance against the sword, (That some other Prophet put his faith in it)..... To Christians that is not the worst element, but they are happy that they are counted worthy to suffer for Him for they understand they shall be lifted up at the last day in the next resurrections. Those who die in Him shall make up His jewels in the New Jerusalem. And yes, I agree millions have died for him. The Muslim ruler Timerlane single handedly accomplished this task, and nearly completely wiped out the Church of the East, as Christians refused to convert to Islam. Of course thousands died at the hands of early imperial Rome, and then more at the hand of the crusaders of the Catholic Church and in the Inquisition. And they continue to be martyred to this very day at the hands of Islam which reads in its "holy book" that there is no compulsion in religion - a sura neatly overridden by later suras - thus eternal truth was replaced by later "eternal truth" to fight and kill Christians when Muslims grew more numerous.... So may I suggest that you use your time more wisely to fight the true enemy of decency "the prophet" Mohammed. Edited April 26, 2016 by RevTestament
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Do you need any evidence for the existence of oxygen or the veracity of speed of life? You do not need evidence for these laws because they are here whether we believe or not. For the existence & ministry of Jesus is a different matter altogether. We have the Scriptures to claim multitude of things supposedly happened, (this not the worst part). And the promises of the heaven, moving the mountains, chasing demons from one's body, raising the dead...Nothing, absolutely nothing supernatural ever happened.... "I wonder whether you might care to provide the actual figures for the millions upon millions of his followers who were slaughtered?" Actual figures are filled in the history of the Planet in the name of Christianity and Islam; Among those victims were my ancestors; they were butchered, deported and eliminated from the land they were living. Funny thing is, when you visit those lands, you'd have hard time meeting one of my kin, who once dominated the landscape but you can see hundreds of demolished, decaying Churches strewn along the territory.. Think about it, where would Mormons be if it wasn't for Brigham young's leadership? Can you imagine one second Brigham would play the role martyr? If you live in Utah or visited the place, which I live part time, I see only a survival story depended on the tenacity of women/men another good example is Swiss Confederation....Whereas South America was destroyed, biologically and culturally.... You're all over the map here, brother. If you are alluding to the Armenian genocide by the Turks, or to the early Christians being fed to the lions, by all means talk about it -- and provide your numbers. I still have no idea what you are talking about. Let's deal in concrete reality, and then make your point,d whatever that is.
Atheist Mormon Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 Just now, RevTestament said: I'm not sure exactly what prophecies you are speaking of but His prophecies have been fulfilled. First He understood Daniel 9, and knew Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. He prophesied the temple too would be destroyed, and that not one stone of it would be left standing. I'm not sure why He would choose such an "Insignificant" Prophecy fill the Scriptures, rather than prophecy the conquest of Constantinople by Islam in 1453 where millions of Christians died or subjugated to slavery subsequently, not to mention the Conquest of South America in His name where millions of indigenous inhabitants were eliminated... When you look at any of disastrous events, (including Crusades) there was no help, the only reason I mentioned Brigham Young was he had people and he had guns (and luck), otherwise He & his tribe disappear into oblivion (and I wouldn't be here to answer you).
The Nehor Posted April 26, 2016 Posted April 26, 2016 On April 25, 2016 at 7:23 AM, Atheist Mormon said: First point to realize in this story is it was written at least 35 years later and not by eyewitness, it was embellished to the point we are reading now. Because we all know that no one has a lifespan of more then 35 years.
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