Are Mormons considered Protestants?

[boblloyd91]

Yep, figured my oldest daughter would be cuter then a blob fish

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

Yep, figured my oldest daughter would be cuter then a blob fish

My youngest niece looks a bit like a blobfish. I think she will grow out of it.

[Sleeper Cell]

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

My first set had the letter "P", for "Protestant", even though I said I was LDS.  But that was probably because they were being sloppy with the trainees.  Later I got the first set replaced with one that had LDS on it.

A few months before I expected to be drafted, the church gave me an “LDS dog tag” (presumably designed by the church) to supplement the standard tags . On the front was a depiction of the SL temple; on the back were words identifying me as a member of the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”  Fortunately, I never found out if the army actually accepted the church’s tags because the draft stopped just short of my lottery number.  

Fortunately for me.  Even more fortunately for the army.

[RevTestament]

19 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

No, from all the reading I've been doing the LDS Church considers itself Christian, but not part of the traditional branches of Christianity (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox). That is an interesting reference, but I'm sure he didn't mean to imply that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Protestant denomination.

Having been raised primarily Presbyterian and Baptist I can safely say that Protestants do not consider LDS to be Protestant, but the very name comes from what the Catholic church called those who first tried to reform the Catholic and then left it. This does not apply to the LDS Church. The LDS church did not arise out of the Catholic Church, and does not defend any of its doctrines such as the doctrine of the trinity. I dont believe the LDS church defends the precepts of a single "ecumenical council."   The LDS Church is restorationist rather than reformist.

17 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Right, as far as historical Protestantism goes. As a Catholic, I consider LDS among the more consistent of Protestants, taking Protestantism to a more logical conclusion ecclesiastically than Luther and Calvin. Mormonism is certainly more ecclesiastically consistent than all these community churches we have today which begin and end in a lifetime with one charismatic guy or gal. Non-restorationist Protestants are, strangely enough (from my perspective), too Catholic in many ways.

Well thank you I think?!? I suppose there are some Restorationist "Protestants" such as SDAs. I am not really sure what they consider themselves. What do you feel the LDS "reforms" about the Catholic Church if anything? I agree with you that many Protestant Churches are quite "Catholic" - they even say so in their creeds - some merely seem to be a change in government. These don't view themselves as restorationist tho, but as reformist, and speak of themselves as being born out of the "great Reformation." Again, the LDS Church does not see itself as reforming the Catholic Church in any way. We believe we restore the priesthood to the original authority of God, and restore gospel principles which became lost. In that sense we are not Protestant but Restorationist.

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Having been raised primarily Presbyterian and Baptist I can safely say that Protestants do not consider LDS to be Protestant, but the very name comes from what the Catholic church called those who first tried to reform the Catholic and then left it. This does not apply to the LDS Church. The LDS church did not arise out of the Catholic Church, and does not defend any of its doctrines such as the doctrine of the trinity. I dont believe the LDS church defends the precepts of a single "ecumenical council."   The LDS Church is restorationist rather than reformist.

Well thank you I think?!? I suppose there are some Restorationist "Protestants" such as SDAs. I am not really sure what they consider themselves. What do you feel the LDS "reforms" about the Catholic Church if anything? I agree with you that many Protestant Churches are quite "Catholic" - they even say so in their creeds - some merely seem to be a change in government. These don't view themselves as restorationist tho, but as reformist, and speak of themselves as being born out of the "great Reformation." Again, the LDS Church does not see itself as reforming the Catholic Church in any way. We believe we restore the priesthood to the original authority of God, and restore gospel principles which became lost. In that sense we are not Protestant but Restorationist.

Hi RevTestament,

I appreciate your reflections. I suspect you will agree with mine if I can clarify my thinking for you.

RevTestament

Having been raised primarily Presbyterian and Baptist I can safely say that Protestants do not consider LDS to be Protestant, but the very name comes from what the Catholic church called those who first tried to reform the Catholic and then left it. This does not apply to the LDS Church.

3DOP

I would urge a broader usage of the word Protestant. Of course I know that historically, the LDS were not present at the time of the so-called Reformation so as to qualify to be identified with Reforming Protestantism. But neither were a large percentage of the Evangelical churches which exist today which are often identified as Protestant. I suggest that today, the term Protestant, may be meaningfullly applied to all of those who approve of those who rejected the authority of the Roman Church by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII, and other lesser know figures of around 500 years ago. It seems to me that most Mormons think of the Reformation as a good thing, but incomplete. Mormons complete the break with Rome that the non-Restorationists Protestants started. Mormons understand ecclesiastical authority and they are unafraid to distance themselves from doctrines that stem from authority that was rejected by the Reforming Protestants. It becomes necessary therefore to distinguish between Restorationist and Reformation Protestants. As a Catholic, I disagree with both kinds of Protestant. But I find the Restorationist to be more consistent. It seems crazy to me to deny the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, and then insist that the bishops of the Council of Nicea found the perfect truth on a doctrine of God, as the Reforming Protestants do, which requires either an official interpreter of Scripture, or further revelation than the Scripture available in 325 AD. In other words, if I don't trust the ecclesiology of Rome, why should I trust its other teachings?

 RevTestament

This does not apply to the LDS Church. The LDS church did not arise out of the Catholic Church, and does not defend any of its doctrines such as the doctrine of the trinity. I dont believe the LDS church defends the precepts of a single "ecumenical council."   The LDS Church is restorationist rather than reformist.

3DOP

Assuredly. Agreed.

RevTestament

Well thank you I think?!? I suppose there are some Restorationist "Protestants" such as SDAs. I am not really sure what they consider themselves. What do you feel the LDS "reforms" about the Catholic Church if anything?

3DOP

Seventh Day Adventism started long after historical Protestantism, just as did the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do not know if how SDA view the Reformers break with Rome.

I do not think the LDS reform anything about the Catholic Church. That is what makes their claims more formidable than those Protestants who compromise, who didn't cut the umbilical cord, if you will. I don't believe in the Council of Nicea because of my private reading of the Bible. I believe it on the authority of the Church Christ founded. If I could somehow doubt the Church that proclaimed the Council of Nicea, I would much more easily doubt the Council. That is what I meant by saying that in my opinion, the mere Reformers are "too Catholic". They imagine that their beliefs about God rest on a clear interpretation of Holy Scripture when they have always rested on the authority of the Church. If you proclaim the Church to be false, you need to question everything the Church taught. It would seem strange if a Church that couldn't teach the doctrines of salvation correctly, nevertheless managed, through unregenerate prelates, to correctly pound out the doctrines of God without any mistakes.  

RevTestament

I agree with you that many Protestant Churches are quite "Catholic" - they even say so in their creeds - some merely seem to be a change in government. These don't view themselves as restorationist tho, but as reformist, and speak of themselves as being born out of the "great Reformation." Again, the LDS Church does not see itself as reforming the Catholic Church in any way. We believe we restore the priesthood to the original authority of God, and restore gospel principles which became lost. In that sense we are not Protestant but Restorationist.

3DOP

We may disagree about the words that are best to use, but we are in agreement conceptually. I tend to see value in connecting the movement of Joseph Smith to Protestantism because it seems difficult to imagine the Restoration arising before an unsuccessful Reformation. Providentially, it seems necessary for LDS to propose that the Reformation was a way of incrementally, little by little, or "line upon line", preparing souls for the coming restoration of God's kingdom in a way which would confound apostate Christianity as much as Former-day Christianity confounded the Judaism which refused their Messiah.

I do not believe in a Restoration. I am a triumphalist Catholic. I exult in the Catholic faith. Nevertheless, I can acknowledge that Mormonism has a vision that is more viable in the long run (thousands of years) than the tired old "Reformation" of Martin Luther which will never fill earth or heaven with happy song. I have a respect for traditional Mormonism, the kind that understands ecclesiastical and apostolic authority, that has made me linger on this board for the last eleven and a half years. I am admittedly more bored with Mormonism these days though...at least the reforming Mormonism that is gaining ground here in 2016.  

I admit that my interest will disappear if your own "reformers" succeed in transforming the CoJCoLDS in to a club that takes political correctness more seriously than apostolic revelation. If the Reform Mormonism that is touted by those who disparage Mormon foundations, with its conformity to worldly standards and mores, is ever born, it will be dead on arrival as far as I am concerned. While it has been fun to find common ground with traditional Mormonism for a number of years, it has to be okay with me if this transformation is completed in my lifetime.

Edited April 3, 2016 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Yep, figured my oldest daughter would be cuter then a blob fish

Oh boblloyd.

Yeah...I never said anything...but you seem to have sensed you have been grossing us out for the last few years. BIG IMPROVEMENT! Thanks.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

I suggest that today, the term Protestant, may be meaningfullly applied to all of those who approve of those who rejected the authority of the Roman Church by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII, and other lesser know figures of around 500 years ago. It seems to me that most Mormons think of the Reformation as a good thing, but incomplete. Mormons complete the break with Rome that the non-Restorationists Protestants started.

I am somewhat ambivalent about reformers such as Luther and Calvin. While the Reformation did bring about some good changes, and forced the eventual cessation of the Inquisition, in some ways the "reformers" introduced their own problems. I personally often find Catholics more open and accepting than say Calvinists.

Quote

It seems crazy to me to deny the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, and then insist that the bishops of the Council of Nicea found the perfect truth on a doctrine of God, as the Reforming Protestants do, which requires either an official interpreter of Scripture, or further revelation than the Scripture available in 325 AD. In other words, if I don't trust the ecclesiology of Rome, why should I trust its other teachings?

I agree with you that it is rather inconsistent. Most that I have talked to accept the Nicene Creed, but reject later councils based on theological reasons rather than authoritative ones. I have several criticisms of the Nicene Creed. First it is inconsistent with an earlier council which disproved of the use of "Homoousios" adopted by the Nicene Creed. Second, it really was a decision made by a minority of church bishops. Most recognize that there were about 1200 bishops in the empire and more in the Persian kingdom which were ignored.  Thus, in reality a minority of bishops were making a decision for the whole of Christianity which seems contrary to Biblical precedent set by the apostles in Acts. Further, the participation of these same bishops in later councils which rejected certain precedents set in Nicea seem to confirm suspicions that the decision promulgated at Nicea was somewhat forced by the sheer determination to come up with a unified doctrine for the new state church of Constantine. Lastly, I disagree with the conclusion of the council regarding the begotten nature of the Son based upon scriptural grounds.  Scripture indicates Christ was begotten in time. On this point I side with Arius.

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 I tend to see value in connecting the movement of Joseph Smith to Protestantism because it seems difficult to imagine the Restoration arising before an unsuccessful Reformation. Providentially, it seems necessary for LDS to propose that the Reformation was a way of incrementally, little by little, or "line upon line", preparing souls for the coming restoration of God's kingdom in a way which would confound apostate Christianity as much as Former-day Christianity confounded the Judaism which refused their Messiah.

I believe one of the most important aspects about the Reformation is that English and German speaking peoples began to learn the gospel for themselves. 

Quote

I do not believe in a Restoration. I am a triumphalist Catholic. I exult in the Catholic faith. Nevertheless, I can acknowledge that Mormonism has a vision that is more viable in the long run (thousands of years) than the tired old "Reformation" of Martin Luther which will never fill earth or heaven with happy song. I have a respect for traditional Mormonism, the kind that understands ecclesiastical and apostolic authority, that has made me linger on this board for the last eleven and a half years. I am admittedly more bored with Mormonism these days though...at least the reforming Mormonism that is gaining ground here in 2016.  

I admit that my interest will disappear if your own "reformers" succeed in transforming the CoJCoLDS in to a club that takes political correctness more seriously than apostolic revelation. If the Reform Mormonism that is touted by those who disparage Mormon foundations, with its conformity to worldly standards and mores, is ever born, it will be dead on arrival as far as I am concerned. While it has been fun to find common ground with traditional Mormonism for a number of years, it has to be okay with me if this transformation is completed in my lifetime.

I don't see thousands  of years left for things to transpire. We are now in the last and seventh seal of Revelation, and the time of the Gentiles is drawn to a close. The time has arrived for the regathering of Israel. I wish I could prophesy thousands of years of roses and paradise, but that is not God's plan. As for a LDS conformist church, I think those days are over. Perhaps, this is one reason the growth of the church has slowed. I believe some Protestant churches have succumbed to the pressures of PC etc, and embraced gay marriage, etc, but it hasn't seemed to help their growth numbers either. I believe all Christian faiths have suffered in the modern American environment, and believe that the LDS church has remained a beacon for those who humbly search for truth. Although, I too saw a little of the conformist  thinking in Hinkley's Presidency, I see Monson's Presidency has not embraced PC, and has remained steadfast in support of God's plan for the family, and turned down opportunities to embrace gay marriage, priesthood offices for women and the like, so I am not exactly sure what you are referring to. Nevertheless, I see change for the church as well, and would point you attention to scriptures such as D&C 112:23-27

  

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And a not inconsiderable number of actual LDS hymns!  Written by Latter-day Saints!

I long for the day when all the hymns in our hymnal are by LDS authors and composers.