consiglieri Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 On 2/15/2016 at 2:21 PM, mfbukowski said: According to Mark Bukowski, Jesus appears every day on numerous occasions and meets with the faithful in the temple on a daily basis. He is there as really as the spirits of the dead are there represented by proxies, and yes he is also represented by proxies just as Jacob wrestled the Lord through an angelic proxy. And angels can also be human beings, including any of us. This principle is known as "Divine Investiture" You would know it if you had been invited to see it that way. It is really quite fabulous! You are simply referring to what is obviously role-playing, I take it. By the same token, one could also say Adam and Eve appear every day on numerous occasions in the temple. As well as several other characters, whose identities I will not list. Jesus, on the other hand, is notably absent from the proceedings. If you are suggesting this is what Wendy Nelson meant, her comments are even more misleading than I had imagined.
MDalby Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 On 2/15/2016 at 0:03 PM, Calm said: iirc, Elder Talmage suggested the stones were more recent arrivals. I think the more accurate description of the altar is the following: It was the Prophet’s conviction that the remains associated with a hill near Col. Lyman Wight’s home in Missouri were that of “an old Nephitish Altar an[d] Tower”. (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, pg 244; The Joseph Smith Papers Vol. 1, 19 May 1838 - Saturday, pg 271; see also History of the Church Vol. 3, pp 34-35) The Indians and Lamanites and Nephites probably built altars on top of what they considered holy. Altars on top of altars of traditional holy land. I don't think anyone thinks the stones that were laid by Adam were exactly as they were some 6,000 years ago after being driven from the Garden of Eden. 1
MDalby Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Saturday, 19.—This morning we struck our tents and formed a line of march, crossing Grand River at the mouth of Honey Creek and Nelson's Ferry. Grand River is a large, beautiful, deep and rapid stream, during the high waters of Spring, and will undoubtedly admit of navigation by steamboat and other water craft. At the mouth of Honey Creek is a good landing. We pursued our course up the river, mostly through timber, for about eighteen miles, when we arrived at Colonel Lyman Wight's home. He lives at the foot of Tower Hill (a name I gave the place in consequence of the remains of an old Nephite altar or tower that stood there), where we camped for the Sabbath. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Page 35) I think the correct description would be "Nephitish" Nephitish could be open to interpretation and mean a lot of different things. 1
CA Steve Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: deleted cause the quote function is really messed up. This is not a quote from Robert. Edited February 17, 2016 by CA Steve
CA Steve Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Don't these same scholars also think the Biblical Eden story is just rehash from an older Mesopotamia myth? I have never heard them use the word "rehash," but yes they do, and so do Hugh Nibley and the Mormons. So did the late Joseph Campbell. Don't you? And don't we also think that these is a lot more to the Book of Abraham that Joseph did not translate? Yes, but you may have noticed how the BofA as published by Joseph Smith skips those names at BofA 5:10-11. Was he such a well-informed higher critic? Hi Robert, My pretty uninformed view is also that the Biblical Eden story can be traced back to older Mesopotamia myths so I am trying to understand your much better informed point when you said: Quote Most biblical scholars think that the verses naming the rivers (two in Mesopotamia, and two in Africa) are late, anachronistic insertions. They are absent from the Book of Abraham. Were you trying to say we don't really know even which continent the Garden of Eden was on because of anachronistic insertions in the Mesopotamia myth? If not I misunderstood your response. And, according to David Bokovoy, chapters 4 & 5 of the Bof A were derived from the Bible, not the other way around. If David is correct, these two chapters are dependent on two different documentary sources that were put together later on, so isn't it possible that the omission of the names in the rivers in the BofA was a result of a faulty1st millennium BC compilation process rather than than reflecting correctly something Abraham might of said 1000-1400 years previously? Thanks Robert.
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: You are simply referring to what is obviously role-playing, I take it..... Jesus, on the other hand, is notably absent from the proceedings. It was an analogy. Divine Investiture is not "role playing". And if you think Jesus is "absent" you must not live in Salt Lake. And indeed you ARE "Adam". This literalism of yours does not compliment you. Misleading? That is in the eye of the beholder. If you are "Adam" it was not misleading at all. Cryptic I suppose but it has to be. So be it. 2
cinepro Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, MDalby said: I think the more accurate description of the altar is the following: It was the Prophet’s conviction that the remains associated with a hill near Col. Lyman Wight’s home in Missouri were that of “an old Nephitish Altar an[d] Tower”. (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, pg 244; The Joseph Smith Papers Vol. 1, 19 May 1838 - Saturday, pg 271; see also History of the Church Vol. 3, pp 34-35) The Indians and Lamanites and Nephites probably built altars on top of what they considered holy. Altars on top of altars of traditional holy land. I don't think anyone thinks the stones that were laid by Adam were exactly as they were some 6,000 years ago after being driven from the Garden of Eden. It sounds like Joseph did indeed attribute the Altar's construction to Adam: Quote That spring, Joseph Smith visited the site. He proclaimed there were either two or three (depending on subsequent interpretations) altars built by Adam at the site.[2] One altar Smith called the "altar of prayer"; it was located by Wight's house on Tower Hill. It was described as "sixteen feet long, by nine or ten feet wide, having its greatest extent north and south. The height of the altar at each end was some two and a half feet, gradually rising higher to the center, which was between four and five feet high—the whole surface being crowning."[3] The other altar—called the "altar of sacrifice"—was said to be a mile to the north on top of Spring Hill.[2] The two altar-concept was promoted by Alvin R. Dyer who has written much of the modern history of the site. But, the three-altar arrangement was recorded by Heber C. Kimball who wrote: "The Prophet Joseph called upon Brother Brigham, myself and others, saying, ‘Brethren, come, go along with me, and I will show you something.’ He led us a short distance to a place where were the ruins of three altars built of stone, one above the other, and one standing a little back of the other, like unto the pulpits in the Kirtland Temple, representing the order of three grades of Priesthood; ‘There,’ said Joseph, ‘is the place where Adam offered up sacrifice after he was cast out of the garden.’ The altar stood at the highest point of the bluff. I went and examined the place several times while I remained there." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam-ondi-Ahman#cite_note-oneortwo-2 Edited February 17, 2016 by cinepro
cinepro Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Also, page two here: http://dev.mormonhistoricsites.org/USA/missouri/daviess/adam-ondi-ahman/complete.pdf “It was stated by the Prophet Joseph Smith,in our hearing while standing on an elevated piece of ground or plateau near Adam-ondi-Ahman (Davis Co., Missouri,), where there were a number of rocks piled together, that the valley before us was the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman; or in other words, the valley where God talked with Adam, and where he gathered his righteous posterity, as recorded in the above revelation, and that this pile of stones was an altar built by him when he offered up sacrifices, as we understand, on that occasion.” John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1882), 69 - 70. Edited February 17, 2016 by cinepro 1
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 Quote “It was stated by the Prophet Joseph Smith,in our hearing while standing on an elevated piece of ground or plateau near Adam-ondi-Ahman (Davis Co., Missouri,), where there were a number of rocks piled together, that the valley before us was the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman; or in other words, the valley where God talked with Adam, and where he gathered his righteous posterity, as recorded in the above revelation, and that this pile of stones was an altar built by him when he offered up sacrifices, as we understand, on that occasion.” John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1882), 69 - 70.
consiglieri Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: It was an analogy. Divine Investiture is not "role playing". And if you think Jesus is "absent" you must not live in Salt Lake. And indeed you ARE "Adam". This literalism of yours does not compliment you. Misleading? That is in the eye of the beholder. If you are "Adam" it was not misleading at all. Cryptic I suppose but it has to be. So be it. All I am saying is that if, based on your analogy, I were to claim that "Adam" has already visited the earth and has appeared to large gatherings of devoted followers, the legitimacy of that claim might well be questioned. But of course, I would first have to make it clear that I was drawing an analogy to the temple ceremony. At that point, the reasoning behind it becomes plain. And it would be clear I was not speaking in any literal sense, but only figuratively.
cinepro Posted February 17, 2016 Author Posted February 17, 2016 55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: or in other words, the valley where God talked with Adam, and where he gathered his righteous posterity, as recorded in the above revelation, and that this pile of stones was an altar built by him when he offered up sacrifices, as we understand, on that occasion.” I'm not sure what you mean by bolding "as we understand". Is there some doubt in your mind about Adam and Eve offering sacrifices after they left the garden?
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: All I am saying is that if, based on your analogy, I were to claim that "Adam" has already visited the earth and has appeared to large gatherings of devoted followers, the legitimacy of that claim might well be questioned. But of course, I would first have to make it clear that I was drawing an analogy to the temple ceremony. At that point, the reasoning behind it becomes plain. And it would be clear I was not speaking in any literal sense, but only figuratively. You need to figure out that figurative is all we get. Words are symbols you know. Word themselves are "figurative". If you are using words, you are being "figurative". Is light a particle or a wave? Can you explain a string from string theory? For all I know "Adam" - with quotes- is all there ever was. Maybe maybe not, but worrying about the distinction is irrelevant to me. Unknowable. Does life exist on a given planet in a galxy far away and is it's leaders name "Zorg"? Heck if I know. Why not? But if believing that makes my spiritual life more coherent, and brings me closer to whoever that Intelleigence IS that I know knows ME- I am all over that. Maybe he lives on Kolob or Zaoton 5, or is really just inside ME, I don't really care. Unknowable is unknowable. For that reason "Adam" is as real as Adam to me. You're a lawyer, right? Where did our "inalienable rights" come from?? Where are they and how much do they weigh? Yet believing they exist makes all the difference in the world. Do you worry about that one and go on political boards to talk about the literalness of "inalienable rights" and where they exist? And their history? Where they were born? And if you cannot show where they were born they must be "fiction" and condemn others who think they are "real"? Edited February 17, 2016 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 54 minutes ago, cinepro said: I'm not sure what you mean by bolding "as we understand". Is there some doubt in your mind about Adam and Eve offering sacrifices after they left the garden? That's ok, nevermind
thesometimesaint Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 We, in the US, don't have inalienable rights. We have Constitutional Rights that are upheld by the rule of law.
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE Yep, quite a story! I like it.
MDalby Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, cinepro said: It sounds like Joseph did indeed attribute the Altar's construction to Adam: I think there are/were misunderstandings. I have every verifiable quote I think on this topic as well as some historical photos of the altar. I think the correct understanding is that this is the location that Adam did build an altar. But that there was Nephitish altar remains that was on the same location. 2
consiglieri Posted February 17, 2016 Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You need to figure out that figurative is all we get. Words are symbols you know. Word themselves are "figurative". If you are using words, you are being "figurative". Is light a particle or a wave? Can you explain a string from string theory? For all I know "Adam" - with quotes- is all there ever was. Maybe maybe not, but worrying about the distinction is irrelevant to me. Unknowable. Does life exist on a given planet in a galxy far away and is it's leaders name "Zorg"? Heck if I know. Why not? But if believing that makes my spiritual life more coherent, and brings me closer to whoever that Intelleigence IS that I know knows ME- I am all over that. Maybe he lives on Kolob or Zaoton 5, or is really just inside ME, I don't really care. Unknowable is unknowable. For that reason "Adam" is as real as Adam to me. You're a lawyer, right? Where did our "inalienable rights" come from?? Where are they and how much do they weigh? Yet believing they exist makes all the difference in the world. Do you worry about that one and go on political boards to talk about the literalness of "inalienable rights" and where they exist? And their history? Where they were born? And if you cannot show where they were born they must be "fiction" and condemn others who think they are "real"? These are all good questions, but don't really get at the point I am trying to make. If I say that mfbukowski is on the earth and has appeared to large groups on several occasions, is it realistic to expect my listeners to intuit that I don't mean you are really on earth and have made such appearances, but only some other person pretending to be you?
mapman Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 On 2/15/2016 at 0:03 PM, Calm said: iirc, Elder Talmage suggested the stones were more recent arrivals. I think you're probably thinking of this: " Armed with this response Elder Talmage brought up the subject of Smith’s paper in the April 1931 meeting called to bring the issue to a final solution. In this heated meeting, as he later wrote to his son, Talmage used Sterling’s evidence to “show up James McCready Price in all his unenviable colors.” Moreover, he “was bold enough to point out that according to a tradition in the Church based on good authority as having risen from a declaration made by the Prophet Joseph Smith, a certain pile of stones at Adam-ondi-Ahman, Spring Hill, Mo., is really part of the altar on which Adam offered sacrifices, and that I had personally examined those stones and found them to be fossiliferous, so that if those stones be part of the first altar, Adam built it of stones containing corpses, and therefore death must have prevailed in the earth before Adam’s times.”23 Finally, Talmage made it clear to his assembled brethren that all reputable geologists recognized the existence both of death and “pre-Adamites” prior to 6,000 years ago, the presumed date of the fall of Adam" http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-b-h-robertsjoseph-fielding-smithjames-e-talmage-affair/
Calm Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, mapman said: I think you're probably thinking of this: " Armed with this response Elder Talmage brought up the subject of Smith’s paper in the April 1931 meeting called to bring the issue to a final solution. In this heated meeting, as he later wrote to his son, Talmage used Sterling’s evidence to “show up James McCready Price in all his unenviable colors.” Moreover, he “was bold enough to point out that according to a tradition in the Church based on good authority as having risen from a declaration made by the Prophet Joseph Smith, a certain pile of stones at Adam-ondi-Ahman, Spring Hill, Mo., is really part of the altar on which Adam offered sacrifices, and that I had personally examined those stones and found them to be fossiliferous, so that if those stones be part of the first altar, Adam built it of stones containing corpses, and therefore death must have prevailed in the earth before Adam’s times.”23 Finally, Talmage made it clear to his assembled brethren that all reputable geologists recognized the existence both of death and “pre-Adamites” prior to 6,000 years ago, the presumed date of the fall of Adam" http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-b-h-robertsjoseph-fielding-smithjames-e-talmage-affair/ Quote fossiliferous That sounds familiar, I think you are right. Good thing I put that iirc in there, obviously I hadn't.
MDalby Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 In 1983 Ray Matheny, who was a professor of anthropology at BYU, took a team from BYU and they went to Adam-ondi-Ahman for an archeology dig. They found that on top on Tower Hill there was an ancient "Indian" burial site. They did some carbon dating on the bones and found the dates to be 500 AD. They found four skeletons that dated back to 900 AD. The dig included 35 different drills down to bedrock so they had a good sampling of the Tower Hill. Unfortunately the 200 page report is unpublished since the Church paid for the dig and is not available. Some said at the time that this was proof that Joseph Smith was in error when he said it was a "Nephitish" altar. This is what I was referring to when I said that this in no way disproves what Joseph Smith said. This does prove that this was in some way a holy site and people often had built site on top of site on holy sites. 3
strappinglad Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 It wouldn't have taken much of a local flood let alone a global one to have scattered every stone from Adam's altar from bell to heckfrast. .If a Nephite from 500AD built an altar on the site because of a revelation that there was a once holy place, fine. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 4 hours ago, consiglieri said: These are all good questions, but don't really get at the point I am trying to make. If I say that mfbukowski is on the earth and has appeared to large groups on several occasions, is it realistic to expect my listeners to intuit that I don't mean you are really on earth and have made such appearances, but only some other person pretending to be you? We are not talking about that. First of all, temple proxies don't "pretend to be" Adam or anyone else. Totally different context. I cant believe you don't see that When Adam has a facebook page you will have a case. You can just go there and ask him all about that snake story. I am very findable. I have met people on this board. I speak in stake meetings. People know me. It is easy for people to verify that I am not invisible. Of course it is not at all realistic for your listeners to intuit that I AM invisible, because I tend to show up at events. There are pictures of me. Call the cops and they could verify my existence in about 30 seconds. Adam is invisible. When someone says he is speaking tonight, I think I might think that they had something else in mind. Something, if true at all, "spiritually" true. Clearly invisible people do not speak at meetings. The first meaning coming to anyone's mind should be a spiritual interpretation. Surely you understand that difference, can't you? Call me odd, but I am not readily convinced that invisible people show up at meetings. If I hear about that, I think that the reporter of the meeting had something else in mind. The claim is so outlandish that I would look for another meaning
Robert F. Smith Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 12 hours ago, CA Steve said: ................................................................... Were you trying to say we don't really know even which continent the Garden of Eden was on because of anachronistic insertions in the Mesopotamia myth? If not I misunderstood your response. The primeval history and myth contained in early Genesis is lost in the mists of time. It was old long before it found its way into biblical Hebrew, and old before it appeared in cuneiform texts. Scholars simply believe that the names of the four rivers, two in Mesopotamia and two in Egypt (which were never connected in any way) were late insertions, and that makes good sense to me. And, according to David Bokovoy, chapters 4 & 5 of the Bof A were derived from the Bible, not the other way around. If David is correct, these two chapters are dependent on two different documentary sources that were put together later on, so isn't it possible that the omission of the names in the rivers in the BofA was a result of a faulty1st millennium BC compilation process rather than than reflecting correctly something Abraham might of said 1000-1400 years previously? ..................................................... You might want to quote the actual words of Bokovoy as to what he believes happened. There are certainly intertextual relationships, and the late transmission of the Abraham papyri could have resulted in errors, although why this particular error would have happened is inexplicable. 1
volgadon Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 I want to know if that 90s song really means that God is a slob using public transportation, or if I was lied to.
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