Storm Rider Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Calm said: You know what...I don't want it. I never have. And yet I have always noticed there is an unbalanced nature to teachings to youth on their roles. So how can you say it always, always boils down to that? I know of a number of other women who see things the way I do in terms of imbalance, but not wanting ordination to the Priesthood for women to balance things. Calm, do you see life as being balanced? I don't. I see differences and imbalances every where I look. In the animal kingdom do female animals always look about them ready to rebel because of their perceived imbalance? If it not balanced for women, is it balanced for men? If not for men then who? Where is there this balance? It does not exist anywhere outside of ourselves. There is no balance in the next field and there never will be. When you look at a picture of the Yin & Yang do you see balance of is it imbalanced? Why? People want to make these about foreigners rather than that which is made whole only when united. As long as seek to separate the genders there will be problems. Every time we point at the other side we must realize that the same finger is pointing back at us. Being united is the only time we are whole. Edited February 4, 2016 by Storm Rider
Gray Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 47 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Yes, and the grass is always greener over there. That privilege diatribe might work in some circles, but I call bs on it. This is, and will always be, about I don't have it and I want it. Yeah, I wish I was blond. If I was blond I would be so much better. If my nose were straight I would be so much happier. If only I did not have hair on my shoulders I would be so much better looking. If, IF, IF, IF. There are always IFs. Building a fantasy on how better it would be if only we were something else is the dream of the unhappy child. That grass over there - it is never greener than the grass you are standing on. Count your blessings, think of all that the Father has given you. No one likes hearing that and yet it is as true for me as it is for every other human regardless of gender. Happiness is not "out there"; it is right here where I am at. This would work equally well as an argument against progress on any social justice issue you might care to name.
Calm Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: After editing your quote, what is the issue? What prevents a woman from seeking a blessing of the fathers, being a follower of righteousness, desiring great knowledge, and possessing greater knowledge, a mother of many nations, a princess of peace, seeking instructions (this throws a real wrench into the feminist mindset of "I am woman hear me roar, but I digress), a keeper of the commandments of God, a rightful heir, a mother, holding all the rights belonging to all mothers? What is it that is really desired if not these things? The issue at heart imo is we don't have language or rituals in the Church that identifies a religious community role that provides all this to a woman as we do for a man. At best a woman is left to pretty much to her own devices to pull together all the various teachings that might have impact on it and write her own version of what this means to her, while men are being taught exactly what it means to them almost as soon as they enter Primary (age 4 for sure, will have to check to see if 3 year olds get the Priesthood lesson or not). This makes a significant difference. An analogy might be having to learn to read on one's own without owning one's own books as opposed to being given books and instruction on how to read them. (though this just hints at the difference, will try and think of a better one) If we as a people want everyone to be literate, then it makes sense to provide everyone reading instructions (and it is not a bad idea to tailor it to the individual as much as possible and that would include taking into account the differences between how men and women learn, but just because there are differences does not mean that one should provide only half the same sort of reading aids) We are beginning to frame things in some helpful ways...for example speaking more of what women's role in the temple embodies. We know what the blessing of the fathers is for the men in the Church. Where are Eve, Sarah, Hagar, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Bilhah and Zilpah and Noah's wife in the comments below? Quote Abraham did what every righteous man ought to do. He received the gospel, he got the priesthood, he had the power of God in his hand, and with that established in his hands and in his family, he sought for righteousness. He sought the blessings of the fathers. He sought for the patriarchal order. He sought for the rights that came down from Adam, the first man, so that he could receive, possess, and inherit everything that God had promised Adam, and thereafter had promised Noah. And Abraham received these things. And then Isaac and Jacob received them in turn. So for our purposes, when we talk about the promises made to the fathers, we are talking about the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. . . . What I want to receive and possess is everything that God promised Abraham" ("President Joseph Fielding Smith Memorial Address," Syllabus for the Eleventh Annual Priesthood Genealogy Seminar [Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1976], 1:291) Edited February 4, 2016 by Calm 4
Mars Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: It will always, always, boil down to "I don't have it and I want it!". Who cannot say this and what do we do about it when we don't have everything we want? disagree. i suppose that's that for you and i.
Mars Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 15 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: After editing your quote, what is the issue? What prevents a woman from seeking a blessing of the fathers, being a follower of righteousness, desiring great knowledge, and possessing greater knowledge, a mother of many nations, a princess of peace, seeking instructions (this throws a real wrench into the feminist mindset of "I am woman hear me roar, but I digress), a keeper of the commandments of God, a rightful heir, a mother, holding all the rights belonging to all mothers? What is it that is really desired if not these things? inasmuch as those blessings are delivered by virtue of obtaining, exercising, and growing in usage of the priesthood... well, that kinda answers itself. and the little joke gets you nowhere. 2
Storm Rider Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, Gray said: This would work equally well as an argument against progress on any social justice issue you might care to name. I did not know we were talking about social justice. I thought we were talking about the Kingdom of God, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the priesthood. You want to make this about social justice? Okay, what court should we go to for correction? You go first and wait for us until we get there. You also might hold your breath also because we are rushing to that courthouse. 1
Storm Rider Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Calm said: The issue at heart is we don't have language in the Church that identifies a religious community role that provides all this to a woman as we do for men. At best a woman is left to her own devices to pull together all the various teachings that might have impact on it and write her own version of what this means to her, while men are being taught exactly what it means to them almost as soon as they enter Primary (age 4 for sure, will have to check to see if 3 year olds get the Priesthood lesson or not). This makes a significant difference. An analogy might be having to learn to read on one's own without owning one's own books as opposed to being given books and instruction on how to read them. (though this just hints at the difference, will try and think of a better one) I am sorry, but this makes no sense at all. It completely exaggerates what little boys are taught just as it completely understates what little girls are taught. Last time I looked the manuals were all the same for little boys and girls. For teens are girls not taught anything? No, this sounds like something else. No one is given a spell book that plugs them in more perfectly with God. We all have to put in the effort to build that relationship regardless of position, office, or lack thereof. My prayer as a home teacher is just as effective as the prayer of the prophet depending upon our faith. 1
Calm Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: In the animal kingdom do female animals always look about them ready to rebel because of their perceived imbalance? I would suggest losing arguments based on Nature unless you want to accept eating your young and other such behaviours as how we humans should behave. As to the rest, please see my post above about what is missing for women. Edited February 4, 2016 by Calm 1
Storm Rider Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I did not know we were talking about social justice. I thought we were talking about the Kingdom of God, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the priesthood. You want to make this about social justice? Okay, what court should we go to for correction? You go first and wait for us until we get there. You also might hold your breath also because we are rushing to that courthouse. Yeah, Mars, that get me as far as your logic got me. We live in different worlds and our perspectives are from diametrically opposed angles. Yours seems to work for you, don't move and you will continue to be happy and joyful with your position as I am with mine.
Storm Rider Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Calm said: I would suggest losing arguments based on natural natures unless you want to accept eating your young and other such behaviours as how we humans should behave. As to the rest, please see my post above about what is missing for women. I have come to the conclusion that some young should be eaten. And you did address the concept of Yin & Yang - is that on purpose?
Calm Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I have come to the conclusion that some young should be eaten. And you did address the concept of Yin & Yang - is that on purpose? I wrote my post before you wrote the yin/yang so I did not specifically address that. I don't think that it is necessary and my mom is calling.
Gray Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I did not know we were talking about social justice. I thought we were talking about the Kingdom of God, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the priesthood. You want to make this about social justice? Okay, what court should we go to for correction? You go first and wait for us until we get there. You also might hold your breath also because we are rushing to that courthouse. Same principle, even if there is no legal recourse in the case of churches.
Russell C McGregor Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: This would work equally well as an argument against progress on any social justice issue you might care to name. If you assume that the Priesthood is purely a social or socio-political construct, and has no actual spiritual dimension, and its ordinances have no salvific power at all, then notions like "social justice" are probably relevant. But not otherwise.
consiglieri Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: If you assume that the Priesthood is purely a social or socio-political construct, and has no actual spiritual dimension, and its ordinances have no salvific power at all, then notions like "social justice" are probably relevant. But not otherwise. I disagree, Russell. I think it important to make a distinction between the Priesthood and Priesthood offices. In the LDS paradigm, the Priesthood conveys abilities to perform ordinances of salvation for others (unless their parents are gay). But Priesthood offices have no salvific power at all, and are used purely as a construct for who can wield power, authority and influence. Priesthood offices are reserved exclusively for men. Hence, women are unable to exercise the same degree of power, authority and influence in the LDS church as their male counterparts. I think this has everything to do with a social or socio-political construct. Even if you think it is the way God wants it to be, it doesn't change its nature. It is still a social or socio-political construct. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: I disagree, Russell. I think it important to make a distinction between the Priesthood and Priesthood offices. In the LDS paradigm, the Priesthood conveys abilities to perform ordinances of salvation for others (unless their parents are gay). Ah. A cheap shot. You just couldn't help yourself, could you? 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: But Priesthood offices have no salvific power at all, and are used purely as a construct for who can wield power, authority and influence. Priesthood offices are reserved exclusively for men. Hence, women are unable to exercise the same degree of power, authority and influence in the LDS church as their male counterparts. I think this has everything to do with a social or socio-political construct. Even if you think it is the way God wants it to be, it doesn't change its nature. It is still a social or socio-political construct. Well you wouldn't know this, because your understanding of Mormon things is rather sub-par. But holding a priesthood office is what authorises someone to perform priesthood ordinances. And it is through the ordinances thereof that the power of godliness is made manifest. This is what we, the Latter-day Saints, believe. Those who don't believe any of that are, of course, entitled to assume that it's just a social or socio-political construct. But by making that assumption, they show that they don't believe as the Saints believe. As such, they have neither part nor lot in this matter. Thus, contrary to what has been asserted earlier, this is not a "woman's discussion." It's a believers' discussion. But don't worry. There are other discussions here where you might have something to contribute.
Senator Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: Ah. A cheap shot. You just couldn't help yourself, could you? Well you wouldn't know this, because your understanding of Mormon things is rather sub-par. But holding a priesthood office is what authorises someone to perform priesthood ordinances. And it is through the ordinances thereof that the power of godliness is made manifest. This is what we, the Latter-day Saints, believe. Those who don't believe any of that are, of course, entitled to assume that it's just a social or socio-political construct. But by making that assumption, they show that they don't believe as the Saints believe. As such, they have neither part nor lot in this matter. Thus, contrary to what has been asserted earlier, this is not a "woman's discussion." It's a believers' discussion. But don't worry. There are other discussions here where you might have something to contribute. Ah, a cheap shot. You just couldn't help yourself, could you? 1
JLHPROF Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think it important to make a distinction between the Priesthood and Priesthood offices. I do too. Quote In the LDS paradigm, the Priesthood conveys abilities to perform ordinances of salvation for others. But Priesthood offices have no salvific power at all, and are used purely as a construct for who can wield power, authority and influence. "Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God; but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels." - Joseph Smith "There is no salvation between the two lids of the Bible without a legal administrator.” - Joseph Smith Quote Priesthood offices are reserved exclusively for men. SOME priesthood offices are reserved exclusively for men - the ecclesiastical ones. 17 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Hence, women are unable to exercise the same degree of power, authority and influence in the LDS church as their male counterparts. Is it really all about power and authority? Is that really the goal?
Russell C McGregor Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, Senator said: Ah, a cheap shot. You just couldn't help yourself, could you? And that was the most substantive response you could offer, was it?
Jeanne Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Storm Rider...after reading some of your posts here..I am having this wonderful fantasy..I am seeing you in an apron..you have just got done ironing your wife's cotton suit dress..doughnuts are fresh...and still baking in the oven is all the cookie dough you and kids made this afternoon..You can't wait for your friends to come over and gab for awhile..as you have been pretty much by yourself all day..with the kids. At about 5:30 in the evening..your wife pecks you on the cheek..and says.."save some doughnuts for me dear"...I am off to Priesthood meeting...I might tell you what that was about...maybe not. You can't go..they will turn you out at the door. But ...have a great evening..and if you need a blessing..I am your gal! 1
Senator Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Just now, Russell C McGregor said: And that was the most substantive response you could offer, was it? Yep
Russell C McGregor Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: Storm Rider...after reading some of your posts here..I am having this wonderful fantasy..I am seeing you in an apron..you have just got done ironing your wife's cotton suit dress..doughnuts are fresh...and still baking in the oven is all the cookie dough you and kids made this afternoon..You can't wait for your friends to come over and gab for awhile..as you have been pretty much by yourself all day..with the kids. At about 5:30 in the evening..your wife pecks you on the cheek..and says.."save some doughnuts for me dear"...I am off to Priesthood meeting...I might tell you what that was about...maybe not. You can't go..they will turn you out at the door. But ...have a great evening..and if you need a blessing..I am your gal! And the really fascinating bit about that (apart from the silly Stepford-wife stereotype, that is) is that that appears to be what happens to churches that (having no actual Priesthood authority) try to stay hip and trendy by surrendering to social currents, and end up ordaining women. First the men step back. Then they step away. Then the church atrophies. Eventually it will die. On a completely unrelated topic, I wonder why anti-Mormons are so keen to support the notion of women's ordination in the Church, given that they believe that the LDS Priesthood is a deception? 1
Jeanne Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: And the really fascinating bit about that (apart from the silly Stepford-wife stereotype, that is) is that that appears to be what happens to churches that (having no actual Priesthood authority) try to stay hip and trendy by surrendering to social currents, and end up ordaining women. First the men step back. Then they step away. Then the church atrophies. Eventually it will die. On a completely unrelated topic, I wonder why anti-Mormons are so keen to support the notion of women's ordination in the Church, given that they believe that the LDS Priesthood is a deception? As I said in an earlier post..as an ex-mormon..(not anti) I have no stake in the matter as far as women ordination...but I don't see why they can't if they want it. Hey...my post to Storm Rider could have been worse...he could be in labor while his wife is at Priesthood meeting! Lighten up Russell!
Calm Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I am sorry, but this makes no sense at all. It completely exaggerates what little boys are taught just as it completely understates what little girls are taught. Last time I looked the manuals were all the same for little boys and girls. For teens are girls not taught anything? No, this sounds like something else. So please point out a lesson in Primary that teaches girls have something to look forward to in the same way the boys are instructed to look forward to using the Priestood to do ordinances. 2
Jeanne Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: So please point out a lesson in Primary that teaches girls have something to look forward to in the same way the boys are instructed to look forward to using the Priestood to do ordinances. And...do a lot of extended family show up to see a young lady get her medallion?
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