Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: We still have a song about it. In "Come Come Ye Saints" the verse ending in "the wicked shall be smitten at last" COULD be seen as such. However I don't believe any current Saint would act on it. There is no such line anywhere in "Come, Come, Ye Saints." Or anything like unto it. In fact, have you forgotten that each of the verses in the hymn ends with "all is well"? I'm thinking you are not very well acquainted at all with that hymn. Nor, apparently, is JLHPROF, who awarded you a rep point for your post. Edited January 15, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: The line in Praise to the Man that reads "long shall the blood that was shed by assassins plead unto heave" originally read "long shall the blood that was shed by assassins stain Illinois". We were a much more earthy people back then... All of the mobs, thugs and other assorted nasties who murdered, plundered, burned out and displaced the Mormon people in Missouri and Illinois are long dead and gone. Not much point these days in talking (or singing) about a "stain" on Illinois. Several years ago, when a delegation from the Illinois state government came to Salt Lake City to deliver a formal expression of regret for the atrocities inflicted upon the Mormons in the 1840s, I asked at the press conference whether any of them had ancestors who were living in Illinois in those days; none did. 1
Raingirl Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, amo said: Well, much has been said about the hatred being apparently preached inside some western mosques. The question I asked was simply meant to find out if local civic leaders are aware of what transpires inside our temples, since for very obvious reasons; they don’t have access to all of the details. And if they do know, how / what do they know? And, of course, How can they really be sure that what they are told is what really goes on inside? amo Because....you think the church would lie to them ?
phaedrus ut Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: There is no such line anywhere in "Come, Come, Ye Saints." Or anything like unto it. In fact, have you forgotten that each of the verses in the hymn ends with "all is well"? I'm thinking you are not very well acquainted at all with that hymn. Nor, apparently, is JLHPROF, who awarded you a rep point for your post. It's We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet. Quote The wicked who fight against Zion Will surely be smitten at last.
thesometimesaint Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: There is no such line anywhere in "Come, Come, Ye Saints." Or anything like unto it. In fact, have you forgotten that each of the verses in the hymn ends with "all is well"? I'm thinking you are not very well acquainted at all with that hymn. Nor, apparently, is JLHPROF, who awarded you a rep point for your post. My mistake it is "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet". 20 lashes with a wet noodle are in order. When dark clouds of trouble hang o'er us And threaten our peace to destroy, There is hope smiling brightly before us, And we know that deliv'rance is nigh. We doubt not the Lord nor his goodness. We've proved him in days that are past. The wicked who fight against Zion Will surely be smitten at last.
carbon dioxide Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 Why do local civic leaders need to be informed? Do local civic leaders need to be informed of what happens in my house? If something illegal was happening in the temple, it would eventually get out and then an investigation would occur.
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Not since the 1920's anyway. Prior to that there was a well known oath that led to that belief. Van Hale has argued, I think persuasively, that there was no oath, but rather a temple prayer. 1
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, volgadon said: q Considering that there had since been a very high-ranking, endowed leader serving as a member of cabinet, you are right that this is not a current concern. Not to mention a recent Senate majority leader. 1
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: We still have a song about it. In "Come Come Ye Saints" the verse ending in "the wicked shall be smitten at last" COULD be seen as such. However I don't believe any current Saint would act on it. *ahem* Cliven Bundy *ahem* 1
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 1 hour ago, amo said: So, what you are saying, or at least implying, is that there must be "instances of allegations", government's"suspicion", in order for them-civil leaders- to be briefed on what goes on in the temple ? And if this were the case, who do you think, would come forward and accuse the church of such ? Without forgetting that every-1 is under oath. amo I imagine anybody who is interested has some time since researched everything that goes on in the temple via the Internet.
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm thinking you are not very well acquainted at all with that hymn. Nor, apparently, is JLHPROF, who awarded you a rep point for your post. How do you know who awards rep points?
JLHPROF Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: There is no such line anywhere in "Come, Come, Ye Saints." Or anything like unto it. In fact, have you forgotten that each of the verses in the hymn ends with "all is well"? I'm thinking you are not very well acquainted at all with that hymn. Nor, apparently, is JLHPROF, who awarded you a rep point for your post. Sorry, apparently I read the post too quickly. But as pointed out, the line is still in one of our hymns. Gosh, pedantic much? The point is still valid. We still sing of the wicked being smitten in Church. Edited January 15, 2016 by JLHPROF
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: How do you know who awards rep points? It could be that I have been bestowed with special privileges on this board that facilitate my spying on you and others and informing your bishop of what you do here. Or it might be that I click on the heart icon in the lower right corner of the post, thereby bringing up a list of all the people who have given rep points to that post -- which, as far as I understand, anyone can do who is registered here. So, with this newfound skill, you can check one of your posts above and find that I have given even you a rep point. Edited January 15, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, apparently I read the post too quickly. But as pointed out, the line is still in one of our hymns. Gosh, pedantic much? The point is still valid. We still sing of the wicked being smitten in Church. Consider the wording in context (tss provided the entire text to verse 2 in a post above). It's all about God providing deliverance "when dark clouds of trouble hang o'er us" and God smiting "the wicked who fight against Zion." There's nothing in there about the Danites doing it, if that's what you have in mind. So if you have a problem with a verse like this being in one of our hymns, you pretty much should have a problem with any church that earnestly believes in the Bible, since this is a reflection of Biblical doctrine. 3
smac97 Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, apparently I read the post too quickly. But as pointed out, the line is still in one of our hymns. Gosh, pedantic much? The point is still valid. We still sing of the wicked being smitten in Church. The verse in question is from "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet," last verse: Quote When dark clouds of trouble hang o'er us And threaten our peace to destroy, There is hope smiling brightly before us, And we know that deliv'rance is nigh. We doubt not the Lord nor his goodness. We've proved him in days that are past. The wicked who fight against Zion Will surely be smitten at last. This verse speaks of "deliverance" from travails. Who, do you think, will be doing the "delivering?" This verse speaks of threats to destroy our "peace." That doesn't sound like a call to militant activity or violence on the part of the Saints. This verse speaks of the Saints relying on the Lord and his goodness. This verse speaks of "wicked who fight against Zion" being "smitten at last." Who, do you think, will be doing the "smiting?" And what does "at last" mean in this context? So this verse speaks of Saints living in peace, which peace is threatened with destruction by "the wicked," and of the Saints hoping that God will protect his people by providing "deliverance" from "the wicked." This is not, I think, a bad or controversial thing to sing about, unless one is prepared to assume the worst of the Saints, and to bear false witness against them, and to fault them for relying on the Scriptures as the basis for the idea that God will "smite" the wicked. Context matters, I think. So if there is some sort of implication in this thread that the verse of the above hymn should be construed as a call for the Saints to mete out extra-judicial vigilante justice against "the wicked," I think the person so suggesting is wresting his sources. In support, I quote D&C 134:10: Quote We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 15, 2016 by smac97 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: The verse in question is from "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet," last verse: This verse speaks of "deliverance" from travails. Who, do you think, will be doing the "delivering?" This verse speaks of threats to destroy our "peace." That doesn't sound like a call to militant activity or violence on the part of the Saints. This verse speaks of the Saints relying on the Lord and his goodness. This verse speaks of "wicked who fight against Zion" being "smitten at last." Who, do you think, will be doing the "smiting?" And what does "at last" mean in this context? Context matters, I think. So if there is some sort of implication in this thread that the verse of the above hymn should be construed as a call for the Saints to mete out extra-judicial vigilante justice against "the wicked," I think the person so suggesting is wresting his sources. In support, I quote D&C 134:10: Thanks, -Smac Thanks for the corroboration, Smac. "Out of the mouths of two witnesses" and all of that. By the way, the verse you quoted is verse 2, not the last verse. (I have to live up to the "pedant" label that JLHPROF just conferred upon me.) Edited January 15, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: The verse in question is from "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet," last verse: This verse speaks of "deliverance" from travails. Who, do you think, will be doing the "delivering?" This verse speaks of threats to destroy our "peace." That doesn't sound like a call to militant activity or violence on the part of the Saints. This verse speaks of the Saints relying on the Lord and his goodness. This verse speaks of "wicked who fight against Zion" being "smitten at last." Who, do you think, will be doing the "smiting?" And what does "at last" mean in this context? Context matters, I think. So if there is some sort of implication in this thread that the verse of the above hymn should be construed as a call for the Saints to mete out extra-judicial vigilante justice against "the wicked," I think the person so suggesting is wresting his sources. In support, I quote D&C 134:10: Thanks, -Smac Oh I agree that no modern day Latter-day Saints subscribes to that idea. But our Danites didn't help matters either.
JLHPROF Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thanks for the corroboration, Smac. "Out of the mouths of two witnesses" and all of that. By the way, the verse you quoted is verse 2, not the last verse. (I have to live up to the "pedant" label that JLHPROF just conferred upon me.) In all fairness Scott, you are my favorite pedant on the board. You keep all of us on our toes. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Oh I agree that no modern day Latter-day Saints subscribes to that idea. But our Danites didn't help matters either. Speak for yourself; they're not my Danites.
JLHPROF Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Consider the wording in context (tss provided the entire text to verse 2 in a post above). It's all about God providing deliverance "when dark clouds of trouble hang o'er us" and God smiting "the wicked who fight against Zion." There's nothing in there about the Danites doing it, if that's what you have in mind. So if you have a problem with a verse like this being in one of our hymns, you pretty much should have a problem with any church that earnestly believes in the Bible, since this is a reflection of Biblical doctrine. I have no such problem. Love me a good divine smiting...as long as the lighting bolt isn't aimed for me. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I have no such problem. Love me a good divine smiting...as long as the lighting bolt isn't aimed for me. And as long as there is plenty of advance notice for me to put the lamb's blood on the posts and lintel of my door. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: In all fairness Scott, you are my favorite pedant on the board. You keep all of us on our toes. Perhaps I should use it as my name identifier. .. Nah, I'm too attached to "Benevolent Internet Tyrant." 1
smac97 Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Oh I agree that no modern day Latter-day Saints subscribes to that idea. But our Danites didn't help matters either. What's this "our Danites," kemosabe? Quote Joseph Smith referred to the Danites as a “secret combination.” Referring to Avard’s testimony before the judge, B.H. Roberts states, Quote This lecture of the doctor's revealed for the first time the true intent of his designs, and the brethren he had duped suddenly had their eyes opened, and they at once revolted and manfully rejected his teachings. Avard saw that he had played and lost, so he said they had better let the matter drop where it was. As soon as Avard's villainy was brought to the knowledge of the president of The Church he was promptly excommunicated, and was afterwards found making an effort to become friends with the mob, and conspiring against The Church. This is the history of the Danite band, "which", says the Prophet Joseph, "died almost before it had an existence." Thanks, -Smac 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Speak for yourself; they're not my Danites. Not mine personally either. I joined the Church in 1971. But they are part of our collective history. The further we are from that history the better I like it.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: What's this "our Danites," kemosabe? Thanks, -Smac Smac, this is getting creepy. Get out of my head.
Recommended Posts