Cold Steel Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 0:56 AM, Scott Lloyd said: It is particularly timely in the face of the recent chatter on one of my threads regarding whether or not Church leaders forbid us from reading content on the Internet. Notice the wording doesn't say to avoid reading, but it says "be careful who you follow." This may also refer to people who claim to hold priesthood higher than that of the leaders of the church, like some of the fundie leaders. Or frauds like Christopher Nemelka, who claims to have translated the sealed portion. People who know church doctrine aren't likely to fall for this garbage, but we lost a member who cast a great deal of humiliation on one of the great prophets of the Restoration because of gross ignorance. There are quite a number of kooks that abound in and around the church. A major film was done by our enemies because some professional anti-Mormons got ahold of a rank and file member and talked him into appearing on camera and confronting him with historical and scriptural issues he'd never studied (and our critics love putting "a former Mormon missionary" on record. Then there's the let's ordain women crowd. So I think the brethren are cautioning us to be careful. When we come to earth, we put ourselves in jeopardy -- it's part of the plan of salvation and is one reason that the Father caused man to bring the fall upon himself (with our consent). When the Adversary convinces us to stand on principle, and we give up our church blessings to do it, he's won a victory. And we'll find out the Lord ultimately will back his servants and that the principle will turn out to be hollow. 2
salgare Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 You can learn to hear the voice of the Lord through the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.8 As helpful as Google, Twitter, and Facebook may seem, they simply do not provide answers to your most important questions!" Please explain where they are going to find the answers. Is this going to be via the burning in the bosom and the still small voice? The essays and/or our Prophets? At Sunday meetings? Please explain. You are living in the “eleventh hour.” The Lord has declared that this is the last time that He will call laborers into His vineyard to gather the elect from the four quarters of the earth.2 And you were sent to participate in this gathering. This is the same message my generation and my children got. When does this "last time" end? This generation? 10 more?
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 9:56 PM, Scott Lloyd said: This is remarkable when I think of some of what I've read on this board in the past few days, doomsday predictions about whether the "millennial generation" will be able to handle the onslaught of pervasive negative content about our faith. From this, I gather that President Nelson seems to be optimistic; so am I. If we were talking about anybody else, Scott, I expect you would be first in line to identify the "servants of Satan" comment by President Nelson as a rather obvious "poisoning the well" logical fallacy.
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 10:42 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: Almost exactly the thought I had. When I consider 'millennials' such as the missionaries that have served and are serving in our ward or the YSAs in our stake who just pulled off a five-day feast of spiritual goodness for about 250 other YSAs from outside of our territory, I'm beyond optimistic. I was optimistic, too, when the exact same message was given to me when I was a teenager--that we are the chosen generation held back until the 11th hour to come forth and prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming. I mean, do these speakers not realize yesterday's youth can hear them?
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 23 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: As I observe people who have slipped into a spirit of fault finding and evil speaking of God's anointed, preliminary to full-scale apostasy in all too many cases, I understand the need for a warning such as this to a congregation such as this. May I respectfully suggest that one of the reasons for "fault finding" has to do with this repeated Saturday's Warrior message of "this generation of youth was reserved to come forth in the last days"? Are all the prior generations to whom this message was given supposed to not mention this to their youth who are being told the same thing?
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 9:56 PM, Scott Lloyd said: This, I think, is very important. It is particularly timely in the face of the recent chatter on one of my threads regarding whether or not Church leaders forbid us from reading content on the Internet. Notice the wording doesn't say to avoid reading, but it says "be careful who you follow." I see this is the comment you made right after quoting President Nelsons' "servants of Satan everywhere" quote. No, President Nelson did not come right out and forbid members from "reading content on the Internet." He simply said to beware that "servants of Satan are everywhere," and "be careful who you follow." (Shouldn't that be "whom"?) The Church is operating out of fear, as is made clear from these types of statements. And the fact President Nelson feels compelled to make such fear-based statements in a world-wide broadcast is suggestive of what is going on behind the scenes with disaffection rates. Especially among the young single adults.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: I was optimistic, too, when the exact same message was given to me when I was a teenager--that we are the chosen generation held back until the 11th hour to come forth and prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming. I mean, do these speakers not realize yesterday's youth can hear them? I'm almost double my 'millennial' housemate's age, but I certainly believe we're engaged in the same work ... which is the very work that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries were engaged in -- including Orson Pratt, whom the Lord called in 1830 'to lift up [his] voice as with the sound of a trump, both long and loud, and cry repentance unto a crooked and perverse generation, preparing the way of the Lord for his second coming'. I understand that certain Church members and former Church members are itching to see today's youth drop the baton, but I simply reiterate my statement of optimism based on the young Latter-day Saints I get to work with everyday: I'm inspired by and often in awe of their faith and goodness and all they pull off, and I expect them to raise up children who are even better prepared and equipped to assume what will be their roles in carrying this great work forward. Edited January 18, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, consiglieri said: ... suggestive of what is going on behind the scenes with disaffection rates. Especially among the young single adults. I realise this data from the Pew Research Center is now four years old, but it's the most recent I could find right now. Maybe the Americans that Church leaders are most worried about are older members who lack tertiary educational qualifications? Edited January 19, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 On 1/17/2016 at 0:24 PM, salgare said: The rumor mill has it that a fairly high percentage of return missionaries leave the Church within 5 years of return by rumor mill, you of course mean you just made up the rumor 2
Avatar4321 Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 11 hours ago, consiglieri said: May I respectfully suggest that one of the reasons for "fault finding" has to do with this repeated Saturday's Warrior message of "this generation of youth was reserved to come forth in the last days"? Are all the prior generations to whom this message was given supposed to not mention this to their youth who are being told the same thing? considering we are still in the latter days why wouldn't we say what's obvious? 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: considering we are still in the latter days why wouldn't we say what's obvious? So every generation is the greatest generation held back by God for the last days to usher in the Second Coming? I think you're reaching . . .
Mystery Meat Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I realise this data from the Pew Research Center is now four years old, but it's the most recent I could find right now. Maybe the Americans that Church leaders are most worried about are older members who lack tertiary educational qualifications? Wow, that is really astounding. The more educated someone is, the more likely they are to be all in. To me that is the most telling number in this data.
Avatar4321 Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 25 minutes ago, consiglieri said: So every generation is the greatest generation held back by God for the last days to usher in the Second Coming? I think you're reaching . . . And I think you are being deliberately obtuse in your attempts to wrest what I am saying and what it means
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 44 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: And I think you are being deliberately obtuse in your attempts to wrest what I am saying and what it means I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying. A little help from you wouldn't hurt.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 On January 18, 2016 at 10:11 AM, consiglieri said: I see this is the comment you made right after quoting President Nelsons' "servants of Satan everywhere" quote. No, President Nelson did not come right out and forbid members from "reading content on the Internet." He simply said to beware that "servants of Satan are everywhere," and "be careful who you follow." (Shouldn't that be "whom"?) The Church is operating out of fear, as is made clear from these types of statements. And the fact President Nelson feels compelled to make such fear-based statements in a world-wide broadcast is suggestive of what is going on behind the scenes with disaffection rates. Especially among the young single adults. I think you are confusing fear and caution. 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: I think you are confusing fear and caution. There is no need for caution without fear.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 Just now, consiglieri said: There is no need for caution without fear. Yes there is. I am not afraid of a hot stove but I do use caution when using it. I am not afraid of the bobcat that occasionally visits our parking lot at work but I do use caution around it (I.e. I do not try to pet Bob). 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Yes there is. I am not afraid of a hot stove but I do use caution when using it. I am not afraid of the bobcat that occasionally visits our parking lot at work but I do use caution around it (I.e. I do not try to pet Bob). Why do you want me to belabor the obvious? You use caution with a hot stove because you fear being burned. There is no need for caution without fear.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: Why do you want me to belabor the obvious? You use caution with a hot stove because you fear being burned. There is no need for caution without fear. I disagree. It is not fear. Fear is an emotional state. I do not feel the sensation of fear when I turn on a stove. If a pack of starving wolves surround me in the woods at night and are moving in would feel fear. If I fall out of a hot air balloon I feel fear. If my girlfriend says "We need to talk." I feel fear. Arguing that the apostles are acting out of fear which is what you are saying is saying they feel that gut-wrenching nauseous combination of impulses we call fear. You used it as a pejorative. Now you are trying to broaden so almost everything everyone does is fear based. I close the door because I am afraid of the cold outside. I exercise because I am afraid of fatness. I go to work because I fear poverty. I talked to my friend this morning because I fear loneliness. I take the sacrament because I fear sin. So either you are stretching fear beyond all normal meaning to insult the apostles or the fear I dismiss as normal caution is actually real to you and you live in a kind of nightmare paranoia world where you are perpetually terrified in which case I pity you and encourage you to seek help. That is not normal. 2
ksfisher Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yes there is. I am not afraid of a hot stove but I do use caution when using it. I am not afraid of the bobcat that occasionally visits our parking lot at work but I do use caution around it (I.e. I do not try to pet Bob). Is this the bobcat you're talking about? Because if it is, as long as it's not moving I think it would be safe to pet.
The Nehor Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: Is this the bobcat you're talking about? Because if it is, as long as it's not moving I think it would be safe to pet. No, Bob the bobcat is much cuter.
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I disagree. It is not fear. Fear is an emotional state. I do not feel the sensation of fear when I turn on a stove. If a pack of starving wolves surround me in the woods at night and are moving in would feel fear. If I fall out of a hot air balloon I feel fear. If my girlfriend says "We need to talk." I feel fear. Arguing that the apostles are acting out of fear which is what you are saying is saying they feel that gut-wrenching nauseous combination of impulses we call fear. You used it as a pejorative. Now you are trying to broaden so almost everything everyone does is fear based. I close the door because I am afraid of the cold outside. I exercise because I am afraid of fatness. I go to work because I fear poverty. I talked to my friend this morning because I fear loneliness. I take the sacrament because I fear sin. So either you are stretching fear beyond all normal meaning to insult the apostles or the fear I dismiss as normal caution is actually real to you and you live in a kind of nightmare paranoia world where you are perpetually terrified in which case I pity you and encourage you to seek help. That is not normal. I appreciate your pitying my abnormality.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) On 1/18/2016 at 8:56 AM, consiglieri said: If we were talking about anybody else, Scott, I expect you would be first in line to identify the "servants of Satan" comment by President Nelson as a rather obvious "poisoning the well" logical fallacy. Can you really poison a well that is already toxic to begin with? If they really are serving Satan, it strikes me as, well, remarkable that one would rush to defend them from having their well poisoned. Edited January 19, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, can you really poison a well that is already toxic to begin with? If they really are serving Satan, it strikes me as, well, remarkable that one would rush to defend them from having their well poisoned. I'll take that as an admission you agree with me. President Nelson did engage in the logical fallacy of well-poisoning. And while you are agreeing with me while pretending to not agree with me, Scott, just who is this mysterious "they" who are "really serving Satan." One would think that an important term to define. But President Nelson didn't define it. And neither have you.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 41 minutes ago, The Nehor said: When my girlfriend says, "We need to talk." I feel fear. Of all the phrases in the English language, that one might be the most ominous.
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