VideoGameJunkie Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 We know about angels visiting him and revealing things like baptism and the priesthood keys, but how and when did Joseph Smith receive the revelation for what the endowment session would be like. Was it ever written down where the revelation came from and when it happened?
JLHPROF Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 Depends who you ask. (Insert some smartypants comment about the masons here). But consider how every other ordinance was restored. Consider the examples in the scriptures as well. How did Moses receive his endowment? Just read the Pearl of Great Price. How about Abraham? Same thing. Ordinances were either restored by the authority being restored and the receivers being instructed to perform the ordinance on each other, OR the receiver was given the ordinance directly from a heavenly being and gave it to others first. Personally I believe Joseph received his endowment not on earth similarly to Moses and Abraham, and then passed it on to the select group in 1842, and then received his own endowment on earth. But that's just me...
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 8, 2015 Author Posted December 8, 2015 I was just wondering because most of his revelations were recorded and written down when and how they happened.
Avatar4321 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 Read the Book of Abraham. Ever wonder why it just cuts off abruptly? 1
livy111us Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 It seems to have come over time and began at the beginnings of the Church. There are some 50 or so quotes from early LDS testifying of this. Let me know if you would like them. -The pattern for the NauvooTemple will be shown to Joseph Smith in vision and he will also be shown all things pertaining to it. Baptism for the dead; washings and anointings; hidden knowledge; memorials of sacrifices; sealing blessings; laying the foundation of Zion; fullness of the priesthood; Joseph Smith already possesses the keys for asking and receiving blessings; these ordinances were practiced in Moses’ Tabernacle and King Solomon’s Temple (D&C 124:28, 34, 38–41, 95, 97). -Explanations for Facsimile #2 in the Book of Abraham are known by this point in time including: “the Lord revealing the Grand Key Words of the Holy Priesthood to Adam in the Garden of Eden, as also to Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and to all whom the Priesthood was revealed” (William I. Appleby Journal, 5 May 1841, MS d 1401, fd. 1, p. 72, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah). [Pharaoh was the great-grandson of Noah] Pharaoh, “being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father” (Abraham 1:26). -“Mother [Esther Me(/a)lita Johnson LeBaron] told us children many incidents of her experiences at Nauvoo. . . . She was at the meeting at Nauvoo when [Joseph Smith] presented the garment to the Church, and held it up before them and said it was the exact pattern of the one the angel showed him, and was called “The Garment of the Holy Priesthood,” and must be worn all through life, and would be a protection to them against all physical and spiritual dangers if they were always faithful to the covenants they made with the Lord. He explained all the features pertaining to it, and told them it should never be changed from that pattern. She was so impressed that she made union suits for us children and had us wear them so that we would be used to such a garment when we became eligible to wear it” (Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin LeBaron, copied by the BYU Library, 1946, pp. 1–2; H. Michael Marquardt Papers, MS 36 Bx 74, Fd 16). -6 April 1836 Solemn Assembly: washing with “pure water” for the purpose of “purification” like the ancient temple priests of Israel. This washing ceremony was “preparatory to the anointing with the holy oil.” A cinnamon-based perfume was applied to the initiate’s body. The oil was consecrated and the manner of anointing was like that of the ancient temple priests of Israel. The anointing was accompanied by blessings being sealed upon the head of the recipient (by the laying on of hands). Jeremiah Willey states that the washings were also sealed upon the recipients. -27 June 1839 The Prophet teaches the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles how to distinguish between true and false otherworldly messengers by utilizing a handclasp. This method is referred to as one of “the keys of the kingdom of God” (WJS, 6). -September 1830 Parley P. Pratt: “I had been on a visit to a singular people called Shakers, at New Lebanon, about seven miles from my aunt Van Cott’s, and was returning that distance, on foot, on a beautiful evening of September. The sky was without a cloud; the stars shone out beautifully, and all nature seemed reposing in quiet, as I pursued my solitary way, wrapt in deep meditations on the predictions of the holy prophets; the signs of the times; the approaching advent of the Messiah, to reign on the earth, and the important revelations of the Book of Mormon; my heart filled with gratitude to God that He had opened the eyes of my understanding to receive the truth, and with sorrow for the blindness of those who lightly rejected the same, when my attention was aroused by a sudden appearance of a brilliant light which shone around me, above the brightness of the sun. I cast my eyes upward to inquire from whence the light came, when I perceived a long chain of light extended in the heavens, very bright, and of a deep fiery red. It at first stood stationary in a horizontal position; at length bending in the center, the two ends approached each other with a rapid movement, so as to form an exact square. In this position it again remained stationary for some time, perhaps a minute, and then again the ends approached each other with the same rapidity, and again ceased to move, remaining stationary, for perhaps a minute, in the form of a compass; it then commenced a third movement in the same manner, and closed like the closing of a compass, the whole forming a straight line like a chain doubled. It again remained stationary for a minute, and then faded away” (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, edited by his son, Parley P. Pratt [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1985], 31). 4
theplains Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 On 08/12/2015 at 0:25 AM, JLHPROF said: Personally I believe Joseph received his endowment not on earth ... Would you elaborate on what you mean? Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 1 hour ago, theplains said: Would you elaborate on what you mean? Thanks, Jim MosesEndowmentMountain Sunday, May 1, 1842.- I preached in the grove, on the keys of the kingdom, charity, &c. The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed. The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires, as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth and hell; the Elders must know them all, to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church, 7 vols. [1976], 4:608; emphasis added) A few days later Joseph Smith introduced the temple ordinances for the first time in this dispensation. And as Avatar said: "Read the Book of Abraham. Ever wonder why it just cuts off abruptly?" Book of Abraham, Book of Moses/Genesis - just partial endowment records. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Joseph received his in vision too around the same time he instituted them. We have semi-reliable accounts (slightly conflicting) of the restoration of the garments coming the same way. As I said before, isn't that how most ordinances are restored - Ordinances were either restored by the authority being restored and the receivers being instructed to perform the ordinance on each other, OR the receiver was given the ordinance directly from a heavenly being and gave it to others first.
hope_for_things Posted December 9, 2015 Posted December 9, 2015 How did Joseph "receive" the endowment? Not sure "receive" is the correct verb here. A person should look closely at the history to understand the events and people that influenced Joseph at this time. Some of this was likely in response to John C. Bennett and wanting to keep secret Joseph's practice of Polygamy. Joseph's recent introduction to Masonry and his desire to keep certain things secret certainly were influencing factors on the development of the endowment. I find it also interesting to look at the history of the use of the word endowment, and what it meant before Nauvoo and how it was used in the context of receiving power from God to perform miracles specifically for preaching the gospel to others via missionary efforts. It was never originally understood as a ritualistic ceremony.
theplains Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 On 09/12/2015 at 1:25 PM, JLHPROF said: MosesEndowmentMountain Sunday, May 1, 1842.- I preached in the grove, on the keys of the kingdom, charity, &c. ... The link you provided said, "Wednesday, [May] 4, [1842].- I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office (so called because in that room I keep my sacred writings, translate ancient records, and receive revelations) and in my general business office, or lodge room (that is where the Masonic fraternity meet occasionally, for want of a better place)." Was Joseph Smith still involved in Masonry in 1842? Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 On 12/9/2015 at 0:26 PM, hope_for_things said: How did Joseph "receive" the endowment? Not sure "receive" is the correct verb here. A person should look closely at the history to understand the events and people that influenced Joseph at this time. Some of this was likely in response to John C. Bennett and wanting to keep secret Joseph's practice of Polygamy. Joseph's recent introduction to Masonry and his desire to keep certain things secret certainly were influencing factors on the development of the endowment. I find it also interesting to look at the history of the use of the word endowment, and what it meant before Nauvoo and how it was used in the context of receiving power from God to perform miracles specifically for preaching the gospel to others via missionary efforts. It was never originally understood as a ritualistic ceremony. Personally I believe in the historicity of the temple endowment and see parts and pieces of it all through scripture. As far as masonry, there are those who have studied this more than I have. But I generally agree with Heber C. Kimball when he said Joseph taught masonry was just a corrupted form of the endowment. Elements from the endowment are seen in too many places and too many cultures all over the earth and throughout history and scripture for me to believe Joseph, in Nauvoo of the 1840s, was able to gather them all together in a cohesive format that fit with his already established religion. Too big a coincidence for me to accept.
hagoth7 Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: ...But I generally agree with Heber C. Kimball when he said Joseph taught masonry was just a corrupted form of the endowment... Agreed. And as I've said elsewhere, I have considerable reason to believe that elements of European freemasonry trace their origin to Nephite temple ritual in ancient Europe. 1
hope_for_things Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 13 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Personally I believe in the historicity of the temple endowment and see parts and pieces of it all through scripture. As far as masonry, there are those who have studied this more than I have. But I generally agree with Heber C. Kimball when he said Joseph taught masonry was just a corrupted form of the endowment. Elements from the endowment are seen in too many places and too many cultures all over the earth and throughout history and scripture for me to believe Joseph, in Nauvoo of the 1840s, was able to gather them all together in a cohesive format that fit with his already established religion. Too big a coincidence for me to accept. We're all human beings, and humans have similar traits and traditions with some vague parallelism throughout the world. There are other possible explanations besides the supernatural to account for these similarities I believe. The history of our temple is also interesting to read and learn about. This is a good book on the subject. http://www.amazon.com/Development-LDS-Temple-Worship-1846-2000/dp/1560852119/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449850069&sr=1-2&keywords=devery+anderson Also, there was an interview I listened to way back in the early Mormon Stories days with a member who's also a Master Mason. http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories-podcast-005-masonry-and-mormonism-and-interview-with-greg-kearney/
JLHPROF Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 3 hours ago, hope_for_things said: We're all human beings, and humans have similar traits and traditions with some vague parallelism throughout the world. There are other possible explanations besides the supernatural to account for these similarities I believe. The history of our temple is also interesting to read and learn about. This is a good book on the subject. http://www.amazon.com/Development-LDS-Temple-Worship-1846-2000/dp/1560852119/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449850069&sr=1-2&keywords=devery+anderson Also, there was an interview I listened to way back in the early Mormon Stories days with a member who's also a Master Mason. http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories-podcast-005-masonry-and-mormonism-and-interview-with-greg-kearney/ Read the book. Not interested in the podcast since I don't believe Masonry was the origin of the temple endowment, although perhaps inspired Joseph to think on those things. And it is precisely the parallelism that I am referring to. Not as an alternative to the supernatural, but the supernatural as the originating source that descended down throughout the world. IE, if Adam had the endowment in his day and if Abraham had it in his day and Moses had it in his day, why should we be surprised that parts of it remain throughout the world, its cultures, and even the masons.
halconero Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 16 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Agreed. And as I've said elsewhere, I have considerable reason to believe that elements of European freemasonry trace their origin to Nephite temple ritual in ancient Europe. Nephite temple ritual...in Europe?
cinepro Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 9 minutes ago, halconero said: Nephite temple ritual...in Europe? With God, all things are possible.
cinepro Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 18 hours ago, theplains said: The link you provided said, "Wednesday, [May] 4, [1842].- I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office (so called because in that room I keep my sacred writings, translate ancient records, and receive revelations) and in my general business office, or lodge room (that is where the Masonic fraternity meet occasionally, for want of a better place)." Was Joseph Smith still involved in Masonry in 1842? Thanks, Jim As published in the Times and Season at his death: Every good man will do it when he remembers that these two innocent men were confined in jail for a supposed crime, deprived of any weapons to defend themselves, had the pledged faith of the state of Illinois, by Governor Ford, for their protection, and were then shot to death, while with uplifted hands they gave such signs of distress as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of savages or pagans. They were both Masons in good standing. Ye brethren of `the mystic tie', what think ye! Where are our good Masters Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was, `O Lord my God'. Times and Seasons
The Nehor Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 On 12/8/2015 at 11:56 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: I was just wondering because most of his revelations were recorded and written down when and how they happened. I would suggest that most of them were not written down. 17 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Agreed. And as I've said elsewhere, I have considerable reason to believe that elements of European freemasonry trace their origin to Nephite temple ritual in ancient Europe. Every time I think my beliefs are a little unorthodox a post like this makes me feel disturbingly mainstream. 2
Avatar4321 Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 1 hour ago, halconero said: Nephite temple ritual...in Europe? Hagoth once posted an interesting theory that some of the nephites made it to Europe. 1
hope_for_things Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Read the book. Not interested in the podcast since I don't believe Masonry was the origin of the temple endowment, although perhaps inspired Joseph to think on those things. And it is precisely the parallelism that I am referring to. Not as an alternative to the supernatural, but the supernatural as the originating source that descended down throughout the world. IE, if Adam had the endowment in his day and if Abraham had it in his day and Moses had it in his day, why should we be surprised that parts of it remain throughout the world, its cultures, and even the masons. I can see where you would think that there are some underlying truths that point to God in a temple ritual. Knowing about all the history and the changes and influencing factors on the original ceremony, compels me to think that there is a whole lot of culture and human developed speculation involved. But I'm okay with the idea that some of the core principles have divine inspiration. I think for many years all the emphasis on exact wording and performing the rituals correctly gave me the impression that any errors would render the ordinances invalid in the sight of God. Today, I don't view the temple this way, and I don't view God this way anymore either.
theplains Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 18 hours ago, cinepro said: As published in the Times and Season at his death: "... these two innocent men were confined in jail for a supposed crime, deprived of any weapons to defend themselves... According to some historical records, they did have guns while in jail. Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 32 minutes ago, theplains said: According to some historical records, they did have guns while in jail. Thanks, Jim There were two guns. Hyrum had a single shot pistol. And on the morning of the 27th Cyrus Wheelock smuggled the pepperbox pistol in in his coat and gave it to Joseph. So they had two guns on the final day. Neither of which has anything to do with masonry or the endowment.
hagoth7 Posted December 12, 2015 Posted December 12, 2015 20 hours ago, halconero said: Nephite temple ritual...in Europe? I believe so, yes. http://www.candlestickstudios.com/files/NephitesLongerVersion.pdf
The Nehor Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 8 hours ago, hagoth7 said: I believe so, yes. http://www.candlestickstudios.com/files/NephitesLongerVersion.pdf Okay, not buying it. Some of this article is either mistaken or dishonest. It mentions that Nephi commanded that only sacred things were to be recorded on the plates which was true and then argue that this shows that Hagoth's journeyings were somehow of religious importance. Of course this conclusion falls apart when you realize Nephi was referring to the small plates he created and that were completed before Hagoth's journey. Hagoth's story was summarized by Mormon along with many other tidbits that seem to have no religious significance. Was the Nephite use of cement due to a timber shortage a sacred story? I also find that the article uses footnotes for generalities but when the specifics come up the references suddenly seem to cease or become vague allusions to traditions. Where are these traditions documented?
hagoth7 Posted December 13, 2015 Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Okay, not buying it. I'm fine with that. I'll respond anyway, for the benefit of those who are a tad less cynical. Quote Some of this article is either mistaken or dishonest. Listening. But we're not off to the best start if one of the first things out of your mouth is that I'm being dishonest. Show me one example. And feel free to show me where I'm mistaken. (Do I have a track record of being dishonest in this forum, or IRL?) Quote It mentions that Nephi commanded that only sacred things were to be recorded on the plates which was true and then argue that this shows that Hagoth's journeyings were somehow of religious importance. Of course this conclusion falls apart when you realize Nephi was referring to the small plates he created and that were completed before Hagoth's journey. Hagoth's story was summarized by Mormon along with many other tidbits that seem to have no religious significance. Yes, I'm aware that the plates have differing origins. No news there. And do you think Mormon wasn't aware of Nephi's golden rule as to what belonged in sacred writings? Is there cause to believe Mormon didn't adopt a very similar guideline - to only pass on those things that would be helpful? While editing and condensing his people's history, what do you feel informed his decisions? He saw our day. Why would he waste time passing on things that wouldn't help us? I believe the passage about Hagoth and other seafaring details, which otherwise seems like trivia that wouldn't matter to future generations...is instead the exact opposite. Or, if you prefer to think he was wasting our time, have at it. Quote Was the Nephite use of cement due to a timber shortage a sacred story? Yes, I believe it was. And over the last year or so, I researched the cement issue in considerable detail to explore that very same question...with a surprising level of results. (Or not so surprising...depending on one's frame of reference.) Which provides me another example that leads me to firmly believe Mormon intentionally left breadcrumbs for latter-day readers. I intend to publish that chapter online once I get it polished a bit further. Or, if you prefer to believe that Mormon wasn't all that inspired and was merely wasting our time with trivia and warfare, feel free to run with that interpretation there too, and do so with any similar passage that doesn't immediately seem pregnant with meaning for you. For the record, I deem your premise to be a slippery slope towards slighting even more of the prophetic/inspired role of Mormon's editing choices. That's a friendly caution. Whether you agree with me that Nephites ever ventured to Europe is somewhat of a separate matter. Quote I also find that the article uses footnotes for generalities but when the specifics come up the references suddenly seem to cease or become vague allusions to traditions. Where are these traditions documented? I've consulted over 200 sources....and don't claim the ability to read your mind as to which one you're alluding to...so...speaking of vague allusions, let's get more specific here. To which specific tradition or traditions would you prefer to have a more detailed reference? For the record, at the end of several chapters, I offer recommended historical reading for this very purpose: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/acts/17.11?lang=eng#10 More to the point, beyond thinking I misunderstood Mormon's meaning/intent/context, what else do you find to be mistaken? Specifically where do you feel I've been dishonest? (And what would be my motive for doing so?) Do you simply believe I'm mistaken in the belief that Joseph Smith descended from Nephites (2 Nephi 3)? Or in the belief that some Nephites went to Europe? Or in the belief that they influenced Western Civilization, like leaven. Or in the belief that some of us descend from them? If so, as we started, so we'll end...I'll sleep just fine if you disagree. I'm confident that these things are true and important. But if you conclude that what I've shared doesn't benefit you, your friends, or your present/future descendants, then march on. Edited December 13, 2015 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted December 14, 2015 Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Nehor asked: Quote Was the Nephite use of cement due to a timber shortage a sacred story? I responded: Quote Yes, I believe it was. And over the last year or so, I researched the cement issue in considerable detail to explore that very same question...with a surprising level of results. (Or not so surprising...depending on one's frame of reference.) Which provides me another example that leads me to firmly believe Mormon intentionally left breadcrumbs for latter-day readers. I intend to publish that chapter online once I get it polished a bit further. Or, if you prefer to believe that Mormon wasn't all that inspired and was merely wasting our time with trivia and warfare, feel free to run with that interpretation there too... What I've come across on the matter is much more extensive than what I'm about share, but the key question is: where in western civilization is there evidence of expertise in cement around the time described in the Nephite record? (There's more than one answer to that question.) One answer is: Europe. Expertise in building with cement emerged in Europe precisely when expected, and was largely conducted by freedmen and slaves. I won't go into the detail here, but the chain of custody for a number of those slaves suggests that some of them were Nephites captured in northern Europe. Here are a few extremely rough citations and URL's...matter unorganized, if you will. Again, these few quotes and thoughts aren't anywhere near the full extent of what I've gathered and written in rough drafts on the issue, but it might be enough of a turn of the crank to invite others so inclined to search for more on their own. http://www.candlestickstudios.com/files/CementRaw.pdf If some choose to beat me to the punch to publish something more extensive about it, color me tickled. To repeat Nehor's question, was the Nephite use of cement due to a timber shortage a sacred story? I certainly believe so. Was their expertise in the building of cement, a seemingly useless tangent? Or was it instead a directly relevant element of Mormon's message, per the title page of the Nephite record, about the very purpose of the record? I believe it is the latter. Feel free to disagree as you deem appropriate. Thoughts/impressions? Edited December 14, 2015 by hagoth7
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