The First Noel and the Book of Mormon; This is so cool

[cinepro]

52 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

It doesn't take much imagination.   Hagoth introduced his boat technology 50 years prior.  And the prophets involved conversed with angels daily, had the sealing power, prophesied of the signs to come, etc, and simply disappeared.  In fact, their open preaching of the coming Messiah and the signs are more clear than anything else in recorded histories in the old world.

Not a stretch of the imagination by any means.

I'm not sure how you define "imagination", but taking the things you outlined and getting to "The Three Wise Men might have been three Nephite Prophets who traveled from the New World back to the Old World" is pretty much the definition of stretching the imagination.

 

I think you have to be careful when it comes to things like this, because we present the Book of Mormon to the world as a history of real, ancient people.  But making stuff like this up is treating it more like (in the words of one philosopher) "Biblical Fan Fiction".  When it comes to fictional worlds, it's too tempting to create scenarios where Superman fights Batman, or the Griffin family journeys to Springfield, or the crew of Star Trek DS9 traveling to meet the crew from the Original Series, or Darth Vader built C-3PO.  Historians don't get to do that.  It might be fun to say "what if...?"  but once you do, you've crossed over into an entirely fictional realm.

Edited December 10, 2015 by cinepro

[Sevenbak]

Well said. And of course there's no evidence for said journey, but the peices of the puzzle lend themselves to a wonderful "what if" scenario.  

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

I'm not sure how you define "imagination", but taking the things you outlined and getting to "The Three Wise Men might have been three Nephite Prophets who traveled from the New World back to the Old World" is pretty much the definition of stretching the imagination.

 

I think you have to be careful when it comes to things like this, because we present the Book of Mormon to the world as a history of real, ancient people.  But making stuff like this up is treating it more like (in the words of one philosopher) "Biblical Fan Fiction".  When it comes to fictional worlds, it's too tempting to create scenarios where Superman fights Batman, or the Griffin family journeys to Springfield, or the crew of Star Trek DS9 traveling to meet the crew from the Original Series, or Darth Vader built C-3PO.  Historians don't get to do that.  It might be fun to say "what if...?"  but once you do, you've crossed over into an entirely fictional realm.

we can make that trip in less than a day. Why is it unbelievable? Especially when lehi made the journey the opposite way without any issues.

[Sevenbak]

So here's another cog in this theory wheel.  Nephi's prophecy about Jesus being born "at Jerusalem", is something the antis think they have leverage on, and try to hit us over the head with.  However the "wise men" stopped at Jerusalem looking for the child, and didn't know about or have Micah's prophecy about Bethlehem. Herod's scholars had to drag that one out.

If they were from Persia, being scholars and so relatively close in proximity and trade routes, the odds of them knowing about Bethlehem as part of their learning and research into the prophecies would be increased, imho.

More things that make you go hmmmmm....

Edited December 11, 2015 by Sevenbak

[volgadon]

17 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

we can make that trip in less than a day. Why is it unbelievable? Especially when lehi made the journey the opposite way without any issues.

We can make it in a day if we fly. That is no equivalent at all.

[mfbukowski]

oops misunderstanding

Edited December 11, 2015 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

So here's another cog in this theory wheel.  Nephi's prophecy about Jesus being born "at Jerusalem", is something the antis think they have leverage on, and try to hit us over the head with.  However the "wise men" stopped at Jerusalem looking for the child, and didn't know about or have Micah's prophecy about Bethlehem. Herod's scholars had to drag that one out.

If they were from Persia, being scholars and so relatively close in proximity and trade routes, the odds of them knowing about Bethlehem as part of their learning and research into the prophecies would be increased, imho.

More things that make you go hmmmmm....

Here's what the Wise Men said (according to Matthew):

2 

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2

They followed the star and went to the biggest city.  There is no indication that they went there because they had access to any scriptures.  Although since the star subsequently leads them right to the Mary and Joseph's house in Bethlehem, it does raise the question of why it couldn't have led them there directly, without the stopover at Herod's.

 

[Guest]

If a vision or the actual advent of Christ...impressive and very important to those who call us unChristian. If written in the future looking back (as it would suggest BoM was written; troubling) not so much. I believe the Book of Mormon account, as it has components that are unique to new world. 

[Sevenbak]

On December 11, 2015 at 1:25 PM, cinepro said:

Here's what the Wise Men said (according to Matthew):

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 2

 

They followed the star and went to the biggest city.  There is no indication that they went there because they had access to any scriptures.  Although since the star subsequently leads them right to the Mary and Joseph's house in Bethlehem, it does raise the question of why it couldn't have led them there directly, without the stopover at Herod's.

They did more than just follow a star.  They knew what that star represented.  If not by scriptures or revelation, then what?    And it would appear that since they went to Jerusalem, the star was generally vague, as its only a 6 mile difference.

[cinepro]

14 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

They did more than just follow a star.  They knew what that star represented.  If not by scriptures or revelation, then what?    And it would appear that since they went to Jerusalem, the star was generally vague, as its only a 6 mile difference.

Honestly, the whole story has serious problems with how Matthew got the information.  It's a stretch to treat each event and comment as if it were recorded verbatim soon after it occurred and preserved for the ages.

[Sevenbak]

I have no reason to disbelieve the Bible account. Yet many do. And I have no reason to believe that  Matthew didn't get the information directly and accurately from Mary.  Where else would it come from if not from Mary and Joseph?  Knowing who their son was, you don't think they accurately recorded the information on his life?

Yet another place where The Book of Mormon confirms the truth of the Bible.  In this case the star being a fulfillment of prophesy of the Messiah's birth.

 

 

 

 

 

[Calm]

How can a star shine over so specific a location as to indicate one house on a street in your view, Sevenbak?

[mfbukowski]

On 12/11/2015 at 0:25 PM, cinepro said:

Here's what the Wise Men said (according to Matthew):

 

 

They followed the star and went to the biggest city.  There is no indication that they went there because they had access to any scriptures. 

 

Oh yeah of course.

Heck everybody just goes and follows stars to the city.  You see a new star. which happens all the time, and you follow it.

Everybody knows that

[cinepro]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah of course.

Heck everybody just goes and follows stars to the city.  You see a new star. which happens all the time, and you follow it.

Everybody knows that

Could have been a dream, or direct visit by an angel.  Considering the other ways people learn stuff in Matthew 2 or Luke 2, this seems to be more likely.

[Sevenbak]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

How can a star shine over so specific a location as to indicate one house on a street in your view, Sevenbak?

Dunno.  If we understood all scriptural anachronisms in all their truth and detail, we'd have a much bigger set of standard works.

Matthew's account has never bothered me.  It's intruging and full of wonder.  Star of wonder fits prett good doesn't it.

[Sevenbak]

I've got it!

 

In honor of the season, and by that I mean this week, here's how the new star appeared!

 

[theplains]

According to Helaman 14:3-6, "And behold, this will I give unto you for a sign at the 
time of his coming; for behold, there shall be great lights in heaven, insomuch that 
in the night before he cometh there shall be no darkness, insomuch that it shall appear 
unto man as if it was day.  Therefore, there shall be one day and a night and a day, as 
if it were one day and there were no night; and this shall be unto you for a sign; for 
ye shall know of the rising of the sun and also of its setting; therefore they shall 
know of a surety that there shall be two days and a night; nevertheless the night shall 
not be darkened; and it shall be the night before he is born. And behold, there shall a 
new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; and this also shall be a sign unto 
you. And behold this is not all, there shall be many signs and wonders in heaven."

From this I gather that several signs occured:

a. The sun set but the night appeared as day.
b. There appeared great lights in heaven.
c. A new star arises.
d. There were many other signs and wonders in heaven.

A few questions:

What does (b) represent?
What is the order of how a,b,c,d happened?
Is there any Book of Mormon indication of event c happening in the east?
What is (d)?

Thanks,
Jim