jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 As we see in the posts above mine, the fanatically faithful will continue to defend this, of course; impervious to ratiocination, any criticism will only reinforce their ingrained persecution complex, which will prove that they, the chosen enlightened beleaguered few, are Fighting The Good Fight. And don't forget "bigots" as you have also termed us.
ALarson Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) I wanted to post my response from another thread here because it's a situation that needs to be addressed regarding the application of this new policy. jwhitlock stated that there is no confusion over this policy "among the faithful". I responded with a real life example of a man in my ward who is a very faithful member of the church: ALarson: Sure there is. I see a lot of pain and confusion among the most valiant and active in the church over this new policy. A brother in my ward is in agony over it because his ex-wife has his kids half the time and she lives with her gay partner. He has kids under 8 years old and doesn't know if they can be baptized. The kids love their Mother (and he does too, but they are no longer married). He has a son who was to be ordained a deacon in a few weeks and the Bishop has told him that he doesn't know now if that can take place. Some clarification needs to happen here and happen soon. Will this boy be punished and not allowed to get the Priesthood? Will he have to sit by and watch all of his friends be ordained and pass the sacrament? How long do you think he'll want to continue attending and be on the outside of his age group? This man is one of the most stalwart members of the church I've known Edited November 8, 2015 by ALarson
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Yes, including attempting to get the child blessed or baptized against the wishes of a parent or parents.Which should not be done regardless. The priesthood does not operate that way 2
sjdawg Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) ? Pretty sure I implied that both sides were seeing what they want, not that one was particularly enlightened. Lest you misunderstand, I don't believe in an enlightened set of morals, in or outside of the church.both sides are very susceptible to interpreting information to suit their opinion. Myself included. I try to fight against it and keep an open mind. Sometimes more successfully than others. I'll admit to some pretty large blindspots as far as this topic is concerned Edited November 8, 2015 by sjdawg
rockpond Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Why do you expect continuing revelation to be diametrically opposed to previous revelation? We may as well be expecting God to revoke the commandment "thou shalt not steal" as we would expect Him to revoke this one. This is off topic so I'll keep it brief: I am not aware of any existing revelation regarding same-gender marriage. If you'd like my thoughts on that, please send a PM so as to not derail the thread.
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Ah...it is nice to see that you have eyes to see and ears to hear but dissenting opinions are to be tossed away. At least you are open minded. Dissenting opinions that are presented properly are not tossed away. Quite a bit of the "dissenting" tripe that's been on this thread has not been presented as an attempt to understand. Maybe you term that being "open minded", but you're mistaken. 2
jwhitlock Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I agree with him, there are a lot of very faithful that I know that are confused and very frustrated and even suffering because of this announcement. I don't think it is hype. It didn't help that when it was leaked it was presented in such a negative way which has led to a lot of confusion over what it means that has not completely been addressed yet by leaders. And that is the church's fault, somehow? 1
name Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Dissenting opinions that are presented properly are not tossed away. Could you offer a few examples of this claim you make? Quite a bit of the "dissenting" tripe that's been on this thread has not been presented as an attempt to understand. Maybe you term that being "open minded", but you're mistaken. Surely, this is satire, yes? 1
ALarson Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 And that is the church's fault, somehow?It doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. The pain and confusion is real. This policy affects faithful members too and we're all hoping for more clarification. 4
sjdawg Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Dissenting opinions that are presented properly are not tossed away. Quite a bit of the "dissenting" tripe that's been on this thread has not been presented as an attempt to understand. Maybe you term that being "open minded", but you're mistaken.Which dissenting opinion on this thread have you actually considered without tossing it away?
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Believing grandparents have enough experience in the Church that they know sometimes the Lord has us wait on Him for the blessings.Since I may end up being one of those believing grandparents, knowing that won't make it any less sad when it occurs. Heartbrokenness can exist side by side with peace and joy in the Atonement and God's mercy and love because pain in the here and now still hurts. 3
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Since I may end up being one of those believing grandparents, knowing that won't make it any less sad when it occurs. Heartbrokenness can exist side by side with peace and joy in the Atonement and God's mercy and love because pain in the here and now still hurts.Sucks doesn't it? I have a lot of experience waiting on the Lord for blessings. If I had it my way, I would get all the blessings right now and give them as well. But the Lord knows better than I do.The question we all have to ask is Do you trust the Lord?If you trust Him then trust that He directs His Church in certain ways for certain reasons.
SmileyMcGee Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Your remark is lost on someone who understands that the Spirit can overcome the limitations of human perspective - in effect helping them to understand the mind of God.Mind your assumptions, J.
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 How does this policy make any inquisition into someone's sex life? Last time I check, same sex marriage was a very public commitment. You seriously think anyone's needs to do an inquisition when a parent introduces his or her same sex spouse as their spouse? How is this claim at all rational?Your arguments pure emotion.If a believing parent has custody of the child, in the past all that has been needed in nonpolygamous, nonMuslim families was permission from the other parent and the parent, iirc, only need to sign a permission form, did not have to be present with any partner they might have so who would know in that case whether or not they were in a same sex relationship. Now one apparently needs to clarify that the other parent isn't in a same sex relationship, whether marriage or cohabiting. 2
Avatar4321 Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 If a believing parent has custody of the child, in the past all that has been needed in nonpolygamous, nonMuslim families was permission from the other parent and the parent, iirc, only need to sign a permission form, did not have to be present with any partner they might have so who would know in that case whether or not they were in a same sex relationship. Now one apparently needs to clarify that the other parent isn't in a same sex relationship, whether marriage or cohabiting.Considering this policy is analogous to other such policies in the past, why should we expect a difference here?
name Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hello 49,000 + Heartbrokenness can exist side by side with peace and joy in the Atonement and God's mercy and love IMO - These can not and do not exist side by side. To force them to exist side by side, one must use a heavy hammer and a lot of grease. The problem (when we bring out the heavy hammer and start swinging it around) is that these hammers often cause significant damage and pain to and for anyone who might find themselves in the hammer's path. But, that is just my opinion.
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 I can tell you that my parents would raise a lot of issues if one of their grand babies wasn't being baptized. I know this from experience and can't imagine it would be any different if it was my gay brothers childI won't, my husband won't, but we would probably suggest substituting a family ceremony of some type so as to have a chance to bond with extended family like they have for their blessings and baptisms.
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Considering this policy is analogous to other such policies in the past, why should we expect a difference here?What conditions did parents have to pass in the past in order to give permission? I know of none in regards to sexuality. In the past, a practicing gay parent could give permission without needing to tell anyone they were gay as far as I know. Now only noncohabiting and nonmarried gay parents can give permission, so one has to find out that neither of the parents is SS cohabiting or married before they can give permission. 1
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 If I had it my way, I would get all the blessings right now and give them as well. I wouldn't. I trust the Lord that he knows best. I find it remarkable though that I can be so much at peace and yet so aching in my soul at the same time. 1
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 And that is the church's fault, somehow?If you mean the leak...didn't say it was.
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Thank you for being compassionate even in your disagreements, Calm. Your name suits you well. 3
bluebell Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hello 49,000 +IMO - These can not and do not exist side by side. To force them to exist side by side, one must use a heavy hammer and a lot of grease.The problem (when we bring out the heavy hammer and start swinging it around) is that these hammers often cause significant damage and pain to and for anyone who might find themselves in the hammer's path.But, that is just my opinion. Have you never had someone you love commit a serious sin or do something that otherwise hurts them (or others) very much and had to turn to the mercy of Jesus to give peace? Have you never had some trial in your life caused by someone else, that brought you immense emotional suffering, but where you also felt God's love stronger than you've ever felt it in your life? I agree with Cal, the two emotions are very possible at the same time. Our lives don't have to be perfect and joyous before we can feel God's peace. 1
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Hello 49,000 +IMO - These can not and do not exist side by side. To force them to exist side by side, one must use a heavy hammer and a lot of grease.The problem (when we bring out the heavy hammer and start swinging it around) is that these hammers often cause significant damage and pain to and for anyone who might find themselves in the hammer's path.But, that is just my opinion.It is my experience though. And it came about quite easily. In a moment of despair, I asked for help and the peace came and never departed over a decade later, I know beyond a doubt that all will be well. Seeing and living the ongoing stuggle is excrutiating though....still many moments of joy when progress is made, some not so joyful when I find out certain things won't likely be happening ever in this life. God weeps even though he knows the joy of his children to come. I don't see a problem with it myself. Edited November 8, 2015 by Calm 3
Calm Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Which should not be done regardless. The priesthood does not operate that wayDefinitely. I think the policy will help prevent some of these from happening. It was what struck me first (given my experience in the past with the problems this type of relative interference in parenting can cause for the child and family) when I read the new policy. 1
ERayR Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 It is my experience though. And it came about quite easily. In a moment of despair, I asked for help and the peace came and never departed over a decade later, I know beyond a doubt that all will be well. Seeing and living the ongoing stuggle is excrutiating though....still many moments of joy when progress is made, some not so joyful when I find out certain things won't likely be happening ever in this life. God weeps even though he knows the joy of his children to come. I don't see a problem with it myself. Life brings uncertainty and the still small voice brings understanding and peace. 1
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